Mid east

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xxxxx @ July 25 2002,10:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The terriots over in Palestine put themselves in civilian areas on purpose, so the Isrealies can not help but have a few civilian casulties.

Tons of countries throught war have cuased civilian casulties, the Palestinians bombers are killing innocent on purpose and so I am for Isreal 100%!!!"<span id='postcolor'>

Give me a break buddy! We are talking about an army of suicide bombers that attacks Israel, not a whole nation. Well alright, those bombers may be backed up by the entire population but that does not justify to condem them all.

"I am a 100% for Isreal", this is not a soccer match you know! This so called palestinian army is a group of brainwashed teenagers and a few sexually frustrated suicide-women. Their motivation is so ridiculous that you should treat them like a father his son and wash their mouth with soap. The problem is the lack of proper education. But how can you teach them to use their own brain if they cant go to school or there is no school. Secondly I guess that a great share of the teachers are also heavily ideologised (i guess that word doesnt exist). Seriously, what makes me so disappointed is that I see a grown up sophisticated isreaeli elite on the one hand and a few silly teenagers on the other. It is not on the side of the pals to finish this war, cause they cant, it is the duty of the progressive and intellectual state of Israel. But instead of finding a solution Isreal plays Kiddy games. You should get the translation for "der stärkere gibt nach!"   In europe more and more people get the impression that Israel is NOT a grown up country!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 25 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 1948 while the other side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 48.    

Bernadotte Posted on July 25 2002,02:34

<span id='postcolor'>

not quite correct, ill say my version?  one side is trying to recover what was lost in 1948, the other to survive. and maybe thats why you fail again and again to understand me.<span id='postcolor'>

Every time I look at this map of the hundreds of settlements Israel has built on Palestinian land I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 25 2002,14:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 25 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 1948 while the other side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 48.    

Bernadotte Posted on July 25 2002,02:34

<span id='postcolor'>

not quite correct, ill say my version?  one side is trying to recover what was lost in 1948, the other to survive. and maybe thats why you fail again and again to understand me.<span id='postcolor'>

Every time I look at this map of the hundreds of settlements Israel has built on Palestinian land I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes but its this war really about the freedom of the Palestinian state or is it simply Arafat wanting to kill Jews? That map is interesting but it works in both ways.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ July 25 2002,17:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 25 2002,146)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 25 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 1948 while the other side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 48.    

Bernadotte Posted on July 25 2002,02:34

<span id='postcolor'>

not quite correct, ill say my version?  one side is trying to recover what was lost in 1948, the other to survive. and maybe thats why you fail again and again to understand me.<span id='postcolor'>

Every time I look at this map of the hundreds of settlements Israel has built on Palestinian land I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes but its this war really about the freedom of the Palestinian state or is it simply Arafat wanting to kill Jews? That map is interesting but it works in both ways.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but what do you mean by that?

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

OK I've only glanced at this thread a few times because they are always the same.

I the majority of people can agree that suicide bombing civilian targets is wrong. And not just American surgical strike wrong, deeply wrong.

Why can't the Arab Isrealis form a guerrilla army? That attacks military targets? It has worked very well in the past and the Arab Isrealis are surrounded by allies. If the Arab Isrealis would get organized and do this, there might not be so much opposition to them. Because really what Western nation could possibly NOT oppose suicide bombers targeting bus stops, resturaunts, etc.

If they did this I think they would be a lot more effective and they would have more support.

[Longinius 1]

"Give me a break buddy!"

I hope that wasnt addressed to me You quoted me, quoting another person. But my name ended up as being the party quoted...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 25 2002,18:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Give me a break buddy!"

I hope that wasnt addressed to me You quoted me, quoting another person. But my name ended up as being the party quoted... <span id='postcolor'>

That is not the first time is it! No, apologies for that, I see if I can fix it! Damm, I am using my 2222 post to admit an error and send apologies, I hope that is not symbolic!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ July 25 2002,16:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 25 2002)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Every time I look at this map of the hundreds of settlements Israel has built on Palestinian land I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes but its this war really about the freedom of the Palestinian state or is it simply Arafat wanting to kill Jews? That map is interesting but it works in both ways.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL...  

[bogo 0]

Scout

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

sorry, my web doesnt show it. but ive seen the photos on CNN, Maariv and Yediot aharonot.

all of the house isnt destroyed, only a section of it

maariv

this is one of the photos.

that really doesnt matter since even in this section there were civies.

<span id='postcolor'>

Here is some links with some clear pictures showing the buildind totaly demolished and the near buildings dameged.

http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20020723150917733 Pay attention to picture 5

http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20020722222400636 and nr 4 on this one

That's how accurate can lgb from f16 can be.

[scout 0]

Bernadotte:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.<span id='postcolor'>

do you now?

well let me help you.

qoute:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thus, for example, Faysal Al-Husseini, reiterated his position on the matter several times. For example, during a speech in Lebanon, he said, "A distinction must be drawn between the strategic aspirations of the Palestinian people, who are unwilling to relinquish a single speck of Palestinian territory, and [their] political striving, connected to the balance of power and the nature of the current international system… Our eyes will continue to be lifted to the strategic goal - that is, a Palestine from the river to the sea – [and] what we take today cannot make us forget this supreme truth."[1]

<span id='postcolor'>

thats the chief negotiator and a great "moderate".

want another? "The Oslo Accords: A Trojan Horse "

suddenly '67 borders arent enough, palestinians want '47, what is next?

Albert:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This so called palestinian army is a group of brainwashed teenagers and a few sexually frustrated suicide-women. Their motivation is so ridiculous that you should treat them like a father his son and wash their mouth with soap. The problem is the lack of proper education<span id='postcolor'>

however i would like to believe you, thats not the case.

we are talking of about couple of thousends armed operatives, who're able to recruit almost everyone they want. unfortunatly they are mass educating their kids and brainwashing them towards it. it is not that there isnt a proper education, it is that they teach their children to hate israel. ive given a link in the start of this thread.

Bogo:

thats what ive said. its a section of the building.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

do you now?

well let me help you.

<span id='postcolor'>

Still this dosen't proof a thing. It dosen't matter how many palestinians whant the hole land back. The truth is

that the only way the can gain all the land back is to have a strong millitary force wich they don't have.

Israel is the biggest power in the middle east wich has nuclear bombs. There is actualy no country in the middle

that can engage israel and win. This is a fackt you know. And what i can gather from this article is kind of conusing.

As i know it one of the biggest reason in that oslo failed was jerusalem. The problem is that israelis said yes let's

sign the peace proposal know and let's disscus Jerusalem later. But if Arafat did that he will be dead right now killed

by is one people. The reason that jerusalem is sow inportant ot the arab world is that the quran it says that a muslim

has to make a pilgrimage once in his life time and he must visit jurasalem and meka. And as  we know how big the religion

plays in the middle east that will angerd the hole arab world. But today even if the hole arab goes against israel they

can't win because israel has the newest tech arms and without no doubt the help of us.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

however i would like to believe you, thats not the case.

we are talking of about couple of thousends armed operatives, who're able to recruit almost everyone they want. unfortunatly they are mass educating their kids and brainwashing them towards it. it is not that there isnt a proper education, it is that they teach their children to hate israel. ive given a link in the start of this thread.

<span id='postcolor'>

Scout pls tell me hypothetical let's say you  where a palestinan and your father and brother just died in the last attak with

the f16 and you are poor you mother can barely support you and there future is looking dark. Do you think you need a book or a

person to tell you that you are hating the jews. Or go up and blow yourself up. Those people aren't blowing themselfs up

because it's fun or because they live in vilas. They blow them self because they think this is the only way that they

can get rid of their life and because they think it's the way for independence.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

thats what ive said. its a section of the building.

<span id='postcolor'>

I am sorry to say this but look closer thhe building that once stood ther is only stones and dust now

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Dont get me wrong here Scout. I am not trying to downplay the amount of cruelties those suicide bombers are willing to comitt. But their motivations are simply childish. And children deserve a less strickter penalty than death!

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sign the peace proposal know and let's disscus Jerusalem later. But if Arafat did that he will be dead right now killed

by is one people<span id='postcolor'>

so what? does that means that because someone would try to kill him we need to give up?

Rabin took the risk, Sadat took the risk. why is Arafat so special?

and no! what was purposed to Arafat was Arab neighborhoods in eastern Jerusalem, Abu-Dis as the seat of the PA.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reason that jerusalem is sow inportant ot the arab world is that the quran it says that a muslim

has to make a pilgrimage once in his life time and he must visit jurasalem and meka. And as  we know how big the religion

plays in the middle east that will angerd the hole arab world<span id='postcolor'>

are you for real? the Arabs had held Jerusalem almost always.

Joradn Occupied Jerusalem since 1948 and didnt make it a Capital, nor did the turks.

The pilgrimage is only to mecca.

the Mount Temple is the third in importance to the muslim but the first to the Jews. according to your logic there shouldnt be even a discussion about it.

what angers the whole arab world is the existance of Israel it self.

Just look at the media in these countries throughout the last 50 years.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scout pls tell me hypothetical let's say you  where a palestinan and your father and brother just died in the last attak with

the f16 and you are poor you mother can barely support you and there future is looking dark. Do you think you need a book or a

person to tell you that you are hating the jews. Or go up and blow yourself up. Those people aren't blowing themselfs up

because it's fun or because they live in vilas. They blow them self because they think this is the only way that they

can get rid of their life and because they think it's the way for independence.

<span id='postcolor'>in the '50 Israelis were poor and it was dengarous to go outside at night because most chances you would be killed.

I didnt see any Israeli strap a bomb on himself an go out killing some civilians then.

that no excuse, non what so ever. it alarms me you are trying to Justify such acts.

edit: what ive shown you proves that even if we gave them the west bank and gaza they intend to continue to terrorize us. can you grant us that a withdrawl will end hostilities?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 26 2002,00:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bernadotte:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.<span id='postcolor'>

do you now?

well let me help you.<span id='postcolor'>

Nice try, Scout, but again you've left out the most important part of what I said.  (Are we getting desparate?)  My full comment was:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 25 2002)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Every time I look at this map of the hundreds of settlements Israel has built on Palestinian land I have a big problem believing that this conflict is about Israel's survival.<span id='postcolor'>

Here's a lower res version of the map you've chosen to ignore so that everyone can see what the Israeli occupation is really all about:

[scout 0]

I commented of you saying that this conflict isnt about Israels survival, and showed you it is very much about this issue.

if you are asking me about settlements in the west bank and gaza , then i would say to you that once an agreement is achieved the settlements would be evacuated, just like the case in 1979 peace agreement with Egypt.

the settlements are by no means a interfering factor in any kind of negotiations although i dont approve of them. but that is not the question.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 26 2002,04:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the settlements are by no means a interfering factor in any kind of negotiations although i dont approve of them.<span id='postcolor'>

Why don't you approve of them?

[scout 0]

i for myself recognise the fact that there is are people (palestinians) living on the ground. since we dont want to make them citizens i see that it is pointless building them in places that would surely be evacuated in any futuristic settlement.

for that reason i view populating the golan heights legit.

there are no Syrian residents there, and the Syrians lost the land, fair and square.

west bank and gaza are, as i've said another deal.

all this doesnt interfere reaching an agreement about the extent of withdrawl, and the type of agreement. other factors do.

[Longinius 1]

"in the '50 Israelis were poor and it was dengarous to go outside at night because most chances you would be killed.

I didnt see any Israeli strap a bomb on himself an go out killing some civilians then.

that no excuse, non what so ever. it alarms me you are trying to Justify such acts."

Well, Israelis never had to. Or did the Palestinians once keep you in small, isolated areas and go after you with planes, tanks and daily raids?

[Oligo 1]

Here's a little competition to lighten this thread up. Look at the two quotes in my signature. Can you guess how each of these quotes symbolizes each side of the Middle East conflict? If you can guess this, I'll give you a virtual banana.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

so what? does that means that because someone would try to kill him we need to give up?

Rabin took the risk, Sadat took the risk. why is Arafat so special?

and no! what was purposed to Arafat was Arab neighborhoods in eastern Jerusalem, Abu-Dis as the seat of the PA.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ya but if he sign on that peace proposal it was like signing on war declaration for any muslims in the area.

You know how much religion plays on both sides. Then you woulden't have any peace at all insted of a couple

suicede bombings you will have a hundred and all of your will be moved to the borther. Religion is far danger

game to play then any game. Look at osama he using religion for his own sick game. Think about if you take jerusalem

ever then the osama will be born in evry village and town.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The pilgrimage is only to mecca.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ask any muslim about it. And you will get the same anwser.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

what angers the whole arab world is the existance of Israel it self

<span id='postcolor'>

Ya they know they can't do anything look today almost evry arab leader keeps for himself. Your quoting what thir are saying

but aren't the jews have the same fellings how many om the radical side don't whnat ever a peace with arabs and they

see all the land as theirs because that what mosses promised. It's not only the palestinan how wish israelis gone sow

do the israelis.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

in the '50 Israelis were poor and it was dengarous to go outside at night because most chances you would be killed.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ya but it wasent the israelis who lost the war. It wasent the israelis who haden't a future.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

it alarms me you are trying to Justify such acts

<span id='postcolor'>

If you need to combat terrorism you need to understand the issue. And in the palestinian issue is if the people

don't have future don't have something to wake and look foward the terrorism will go on . Hasen't 50 years proven

the point. It dosen't matter how many hamas or different terrorist organization you kill. One will be appointed

right away. How many leaders have been killed you will t hought by now that should have vanished but no.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

edit: what ive shown you proves that even if we gave them the west bank and gaza they intend to continue to terrorize us. can you grant us that a withdrawl will end hostilities?

<span id='postcolor'>

ya but you haven't givint the palestinians independence.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in the '50 Israelis were poor and it was dengarous to go outside at night because most chances you would be killed.

I didnt see any Israeli strap a bomb on himself an go out killing some civilians then.

that no excuse, non what so ever. it alarms me you are trying to Justify such acts.

<span id='postcolor'> If you think that Israelis have never used terrorism them you need to consult your history books. The Jews used some terrible terror tactics in '40s Palestine.

[Longinius 1]

"If you think that Israelis have never used terrorism them you need to consult your history books. The Jews used some terrible terror tactics in '40s Palestine."

According to some the first terror attacks in the area were also done by Jews.

What I find interesting though is that several Israelies responsible for massacres have actually gone on to become ministers, primeministers even.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 26 2002,15:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"If you think that Israelis have never used terrorism them you need to consult your history books. The Jews used some terrible terror tactics in '40s Palestine."

According to some the first terror attacks in the area were also done by Jews.

What I find interesting though is that several Israelies responsible for massacres have actually gone on to become ministers, primeministers even.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly the same in N.Ireland. No-one is whiter than white in these places, Including Israelis.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 26 2002,16:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I find interesting though is that several Israelies responsible for massacres have actually gone on to become ministers, primeministers even.<span id='postcolor'>

Ya one of them is Ariel Sharon.

http://www.sabra-shatila.be/

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 26 2002,06:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> i for myself recognise the fact that there is are people (palestinians) living on the ground. since we dont want to make them citizens i see that it is pointless building them in places that would surely be evacuated in any futuristic settlement.<span id='postcolor'>

Why has Israel built hundreds of settlements that would surely be evacuated when there is a peace settlement?