Mid east

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 21 2002,22:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You always have to wonder who can be trusted.

On 6 May, 2001, the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz printed what it claimed to be "the text of the Mitchell Report."  Unfortunately, their version only had 4300 words whereas the actual report has around 9200 words.  I guess Ha'aretz must have decided that the Israeli people didn't really need to read about half of the original report.

Before the link to that Ha'aretz article could be switched off, it was reprinted here and also here.  Anyone curious about which 4900 words got left out by Ha'aretz can compare it with the original unedited (uncensored?) version of the Mitchell Report straight from the US government web site.

In my opinion, this report is one of the most important and best documents ever written on the conflict because it summarises all the issues that both sides can agree on.  It's a pity that it wasn't good enough for Ha'aretz.  <span id='postcolor'>

Exactly i tend never to read any news from a party wich has something to gain espacialy in war time because most of it is propaganda.

[scout 0]

since the ICT is a respected institute throughout the world.

it has much to lose if it would publish bogus data it would lose prestige.

the article doesnt do a thing but publish data, most of it is known to the public but never orgenized. i didnt see any thing opnionated there. its a pretty profesional job.

the Ha'aretz however is a newspaper that is owned by people who has certain views and anything related to this is opinionated.

if you decline to use it, dont.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 22 2002,00:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">since the ICT is a respected  institute throughout the world.

it has much to lose if it would publish bogus data it would lose prestige.

the article doesnt do a thing but publish data, most of it is known to the public but never orgenized. i didnt see any thing opnionated there. its a pretty profesional job.

the Ha'aretz however is a newspaper that is owned by people who has certain views and anything related to this is opinionated.

if you decline to use it, dont.<span id='postcolor'>

Well i have hard time seing the instutation not gaining anything.Here are my point's:

1. It's an Israeli instituation

2. it's manly devoted to terrorism wich i can see that over 90% of their materials is about the palestinians.

3. And thirthly this repport is to make it look that the majoraty of the palestinians killed are killed in combat or by there one people for being collaborators. I know for a fact that no body keeps a nummber on the collaborators. In fact i will say that each side dosen't care about them. Maybe israel because it losses some info.

And tell me this when the israeli army shoots kids for trowing rocks at a tank are they also combat casualty.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3. And thirthly this repport is to make it look that the majoraty of  the palestinians killed are killed in combat or by there one people for being collaborators. I know for a fact that no body keeps a nummber on the collaborators. In fact i will say that each side dosen't care about them. Maybe israel because it losses some info.

<span id='postcolor'>

really? now what facts support your claim? lets us look at these "facts".

FACT is that every time an event like this happens, we get a full report about that.

FACT is there was and still is a huge debate about not doing enough for these men.

be careful with your facts

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And tell me this when the israeli army shoots kids for trowing rocks at a tank are they also combat casualty.<span id='postcolor'>

where did you see a tank firing upon a kid who throws rocks at him? wanna show me a clip?

stop blurting stuff you dont even know about

here is a criticism by "Al-Hayat" on the matter of the use of children as combatants. is it because the kids throw only rocks?

lets go on.

who equips and sends palestinian kid to attack Israeli citizens?

in Jenin kids packed explosives in their school bags: "Sheikh Abu Al-Hija also stated, "Some of the youths stood fast, and filled their school bags with explosive devices."[8] "

all this came from arab and palestinian sources, that you can check for yourself.

so, do the palestinians limits the kids activity to stone throwing? no.

here is another: a 16 year old girl commits suicide in front of a supermarket in Jerusalem. what tanks shot her then?

two weeks ago i saw an interview with a 14 year old kid in Gaza that was recruited to the Hamas and was sent to attack an army outpost with a friend of his. he regreted and decided to come back. his friend didnt and died as a result. he isnt leaving his house cause his parents are afraid he'll be sent again.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Exactly i tend never to read any news from a party wich has something to gain espacialy in war time because most of it is propaganda.<span id='postcolor'>

ok. do you mean to read newspapers that know nothing about the area? whose reporters thought "Jenin" was some kind of sausage?

or news agencies that hire locals, thus again, in your opinion, are biased?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. It's an Israeli instituation<span id='postcolor'>

pssst... if you didnt know, unlike every other country in the area, we have a freedom of speech and thought. nobody, even the govt.  goes by the "party line".

arrrgggggg .........first time someone succeeded pissing me.

here is a paragraph from the mitchell report: "Accordingly, we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the GOI to respond with lethal force."

and here is a link to an interview with PA official says otherwise.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 22 2002,03:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And tell me this when the israeli army shoots kids for trowing rocks at a tank are they also combat casualty.<span id='postcolor'>

where did you see a tank firing upon a kid who throws rocks at him? wanna show me a clip? stop blurting stuff you dont even know about <span id='postcolor'>

He didn't say a tank was firing upon a kid.  He said the Israeli army shot kids for throwing rocks.  According to the Mitchell Report:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were incidents where IDF soldiers have used lethal force, including live ammunition and modified metal-cored rubber rounds, against unarmed demonstrators throwing stones.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 22 2002,03:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. It's an Israeli instituation<span id='postcolor'>

pssst... if you didnt know, unlike every other country in the area, we have a freedom of speech and thought. nobody, even the govt.  goes by the "party line".

arrrgggggg .........first time someone succeeded pissing me.<span id='postcolor'>

Calm down Scout!  Now tell me, since when has 'freedom of speech' ever guaranteed freedom from lies, bias or propaganda?  Your 'freedom of speech' didn't save you when one of the most widely read newpapers in Israel decided to hide half of the Mitchell Report from the Israeli public.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 22 2002,03:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">where did you see a tank firing upon a kid who throws rocks at him? wanna show me a clip?  stop blurting stuff you dont even know about <span id='postcolor'>

It ain't just kids with rocks.  Here's some "stuff blurted out" by the Israeli office of Amnesty International...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- Ibrahim Jazmawi, a medical assistant, died when a tank fired on two clearly marked ambulances of the Palestine Red Crescent Society on Tulkarem's main street while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) were occupying the West Bank town on 7 March.

-- Samir Sadi Sababeh, aged 45, who was deaf and mute, was killed on 11 March by IDF soldiers when he failed to obey their summons to cross the main street of Jebaliya as they blew up buildings in the town.<span id='postcolor'>

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> -- Samir Sadi Sababeh, aged 45, who was deaf and mute, was killed on 11 March by IDF soldiers when he failed to obey their summons to cross the main street of Jebaliya as they blew up buildings in the town.<span id='postcolor'>

was he blind also? the guy ran towards the troops. maybe he didnt hear 'em but he could clearly see their guns.

the troops decided that he threatened them and opened up in an arresting procedure.

although they hit his leg he continued on.

9 out of 10 times this event happens it involves a terrorist with a suicide belt.

im sorry about this man, but his death was clearly accidental.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- Ibrahim Jazmawi, a medical assistant, died when a tank fired on two clearly marked ambulances of the Palestine Red Crescent Society on Tulkarem's main street while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) were occupying the West Bank town on 7 March.

<span id='postcolor'>

dont have any info about this incident.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your 'freedom of speech' didn't save you when one of the most widely read newpapers in Israel decided to hide half of the Mitchell Report from the Israeli public.<span id='postcolor'>

as you just said, the 3rd biggest newspaper. we have above ten of them and we have open access to the net. Yediot Aharonot, pulished it in full.

have a good one

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 23 2002,16:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> -- Samir Sadi Sababeh, aged 45, who was deaf and mute, was killed on 11 March by IDF soldiers when he failed to obey their summons to cross the main street of Jebaliya as they blew up buildings in the town.<span id='postcolor'>

was he blind also? the guy ran towards the troops. maybe he didnt hear 'em but he could clearly see their guns.

the troops decided that he threatened them and opened up in an arresting procedure.

although they hit his leg he continued on.

9 out of 10 times this event happens it involves a terrorist with a suicide belt.

im sorry about this man, but his death was clearly accidental.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- Ibrahim Jazmawi, a medical assistant, died when a tank fired on two clearly marked ambulances of the Palestine Red Crescent Society on Tulkarem's main street while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) were occupying the West Bank town on 7 March.

<span id='postcolor'>

dont have any info about this incident.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your 'freedom of speech' didn't save you when one of the most widely read newpapers in Israel decided to hide half of the Mitchell Report from the Israeli public.<span id='postcolor'>

as you just said, the 3rd biggest newspaper. we have above ten of them and we have open access to the net. Yediot Aharonot, pulished it in full.

have a good one <span id='postcolor'>

1) Someone approaches me,knowing the massive use of suicide bombers,I'd have shot him as well.

I'd rather take no chances,sorry,but i'd find it hard not to be paranoid about every palestinian i saw if i were in the middle east (as an israeli of course).

Really not something to be held against the israeli's imho.

2)I doubt they hadn't received proper warnings,unlike the palestinians the israeli's have an organised army with a training beyond how to blow up as many people with your c4 belt.

Red cross/crescent vehicles have always been used as troop or ammo transport,if they didn't respond to the warnings (yes i'm still assuming these were given,have no reason not to) they immediately should be considered suspicious and perhaps be engaged.

3) This has happened everywhere,it's just the media,some are honest,some just want to make you feel good,and some just want to take away your attention (eg tabloids)

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 23 2002,16:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- Ibrahim Jazmawi, a medical assistant, died when a tank fired on two clearly marked ambulances of the Palestine Red Crescent Society on Tulkarem's main street while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) were occupying the West Bank town on 7 March.<span id='postcolor'>

dont have any info about this incident.<span id='postcolor'>

Good answer.  It takes a brave mind to state that your missing some facts rather than just speculate about why you think something happened.  Thanks.  

I found a much more detailed Amnesty report here.  The part about the 2 doctors and 4 paramedics killed in March starts on page 15.

Amnesty partially blames breaks in the communication chain.  An ambulance may get permission to travel from one IDF unit, but ends up getting shot up by another.  There's nothing about IDF warnings being ignored.

This same report also mentions that Amnesty has only ever received 2 reports of ambulances carrying Palestinian weapons.  An independent investigation has yet to verify those IDF reports.  According to Amnesty most ambulance abuse reports are actually against the IDF. Not sure if any of those have been verified either.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 23 2002,16:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> -- Samir Sadi Sababeh, aged 45, who was deaf and mute, was killed on 11 March by IDF soldiers when he failed to obey their summons to cross the main street of Jebaliya as they blew up buildings in the town.<span id='postcolor'>

was he blind also? the guy ran towards the troops. maybe he didnt hear 'em but he could clearly see their guns.

the troops decided that he threatened them and opened up in an arresting procedure.

although they hit his leg he continued on.

9 out of 10 times this event happens it involves a terrorist with a suicide belt.

im sorry about this man, but his death was clearly accidental.

<span id='postcolor'>

No, there's nothing that says he was blind, although it was after dark.  There's nothing that says he was a lunatic either and he'd have to be crazy to be deaf and run straight at some IDF soldiers at night, even if he couldn't see their guns.  Where did you get your info?

Again, according to page 12 of Amnesty's full report:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In Salah al-Din Street a deaf and mute man, Samir Sadi Sababeh, aged 45, died when the IDF prepared to demolish a small metal workshop on the other side of the street from where he sheltered. Around 10.30pm on 11 March the IDF summoned all residents of the flats beside the workshop to leave, allowing them no time to collect their possessions. The IDF called Samir Sababeh to join the residents being evicted from their houses. When he failed to come, they shot and killed him.<span id='postcolor'>

[Asbest 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But Bush can definitely kiss his little war on terror in Iraq goodbye, if the surrounding arab states get still more pissed off as it is.

<span id='postcolor'>

We all know that IF the USA wants to mess with ANYONE they can... If it terror the war is on, the US wont loose in the end. That´s a fact.

[Longinius 1]

"1) Someone approaches me,knowing the massive use of suicide bombers,I'd have shot him as well.

I'd rather take no chances,sorry,but i'd find it hard not to be paranoid about every palestinian i saw if i were in the middle east (as an israeli of course).

Really not something to be held against the israeli's imho."

Caution is one thing. Going on a shooting spree is another. I understand that the IDF soldiers are suspicous against Palestinians. But that does not give them the right to just blow away anyone they suspect.

"2)I doubt they hadn't received proper warnings,unlike the palestinians the israeli's have an organised army with a training beyond how to blow up as many people with your c4 belt."

You assume here that just because the IDF is an official military force they always follow rules, everyone is a good guy and nothing ever goes wrong. That is a dangerous assumption. I have had this discussion with Scout, I know his standpoint (no need to reply unless you think I am out of line, Scout:)). Scout informed me that if anyone fauled up in the IDF word got out pretty fast. That might be so. But its still not good for people to claim they know what is going on based on the fact that the IDF is a "real" military organisation. Real militaries do bad things to.

"Red cross/crescent vehicles have always been used as troop or ammo transport,if they didn't respond to the warnings (yes i'm still assuming these were given,have no reason not to) they immediately should be considered suspicious and perhaps be engaged."

Not always, but often. If they were always used for that I assume they would always be shot at...

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 24 2002,07:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scout informed me that if anyone fauled up in the IDF word got out pretty fast. That might be so. But its still not good for people to claim they know what is going on based on the fact that the IDF is a "real" military organisation. Real militaries do bad things to.<span id='postcolor'>

If somebody doesn't believe this, read the "Military Stupidity" thread. Militaries are supposed to be the most efficient kind of organizations, but from my experience they are even more fucked than universities.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 24 2002,08:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If somebody doesn't believe this, read the "Military Stupidity" thread. Militaries are supposed to be the most efficient kind of organizations, but from my experience they are even more fucked than universities.<span id='postcolor'>

Unfortunately, as with everything else, an organisation is only as efficient as the people within said organisation. The military as with everything else is full of people, and people make mistakes. (more often than not in fact )

[Bernadotte 0]

The night before last, an Israeli F16 dropped a 1-tonne bomb on a residential apartment building in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world. The bomb killed a Hamas leader, his wife and 2 kids. Altogether, 15 were killed (9 children) and over 140 were injured as several buildings were destroyed by the blast. Yesterday, Prime Minister Sharon congratulated his air force, calling the operation a great success. Today, some in his government are saying "Maybe there was some miscalculation or mistake."

What really irritates me is that within a month, Scout and others will be able to quote hundreds of translated angry Arab sentiments, like kids loading school bags with explosives, but everyone will forget why. Just like nobody remembers when and why the first Palestinian suicide attack occurred in Israel. Everyone simply remembers it as a despicable action rather than a despicable reaction.

By the way, the first Palestinian suicide bombing occurred in 1994, as an act of revenge for the Goldstein massacre. On 6 April 1994, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli settler, shot dead 29 Palestinians praying in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque and wounded over 100 others before being killed himself. Here is an Israeli website honouring his memory.

Punchline: Baruch Goldstein was buried in the Palestinian territories and over the years, his grave has become a site of pilgrimage.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 24 2002,15:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The night before last, an Israeli F16 dropped a 1-tonne bomb on a residential apartment building in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world.  The bomb killed a Hamas leader, his wife and 2 kids.  Altogether, 15 were killed (9 children) and over 140 were injured as several buildings were destroyed by the blast.  Yesterday, Prime Minister Sharon congratulated his air force, calling the operation a great success.  Today, some in his government are saying "Maybe there was some miscalculation or mistake."<span id='postcolor'>

Ya and he said that he actualy diden't knew that there where some many people living in the area he woulden't order the attak. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2148548.stm

My gosh like Bernadotte says Gaza it's on of the most populated area in the world.Hitting that building with a missile from and F16 and expect low casualties come on who belives him. And the most alerting is that he says he's is willing to do it again what's next a b52 . You have allready user apache and f16. As Sharon says "We must cause them losses, victims, so they feel the heavy price" Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, speaking to the press on 5 March "

http://www.amnesty.org.il/israel/pr_64.html

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As Sharon says "We must cause them losses, victims, so they feel the heavy price" Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, speaking to the press on 5 March "

<span id='postcolor'>

as always you quote only half of the sentance. if your link would have quoted fully it would read. "these terrorists are our targets, We must cause them losses, victims, so they feel the heavy price"

but nevermind.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Altogether, 15 were killed (9 children) and over 140 were injured as several buildings were destroyed by the blast. Yesterday, Prime Minister Sharon congratulated his air force, calling the operation a great success<span id='postcolor'>

yes i know Sharon is a prick, but as it seems today, it was a bad intel, that caused to believe the man was alone.

this info again comes from an "insider", whom i tend to believe.

hitting civies, if nothing else, is very damaging for us, although its not what decides upon the action.

im really sorry about this tragedy.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My gosh like Bernadotte says Gaza it's on of the most populated area in the world.Hitting that building with a missile from and F16 and expect low casualties come on who belives him<span id='postcolor'>

actually had you had any millitary experience you'd known that you can drop a 2000 pds. bomb you can decide what building would be hit. had the intel would be accurate no one would be hit.

in 1973 IAF airplanes had hit the C&C building of the syrian air force while avoiding the cells of Israeli pilots there.

not making any excuses but claims like yours are very inaccurate and has not hold in reality.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,18:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As Sharon says "We must cause them losses, victims, so they feel the heavy price" Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, speaking to the press on 5 March "

<span id='postcolor'>

as always you quote only half of the sentance. if your link would have quoted fully it would read. "these terrorists are our targets, We must cause them losses, victims, so they feel the heavy price"

but nevermind.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Altogether, 15 were killed (9 children) and over 140 were injured as several buildings were destroyed by the blast.  Yesterday, Prime Minister Sharon congratulated his air force, calling the operation a great success<span id='postcolor'>

yes i know Sharon is a prick, but as it seems today, it was a bad intel, that caused to believe the man was alone.

this info again comes from an "insider", whom i tend to believe.

hitting civies, if nothing else, is very damaging for us, although its not what decides upon the action.

im really sorry about this tragedy.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My gosh like Bernadotte says Gaza it's on of the most populated area in the world.Hitting that building with a missile from and F16 and expect low casualties come on who belives him<span id='postcolor'>

actually had you had any millitary experience you'd known that you can drop a 2000 pds. bomb you can decide what building would be hit. had the intel would be accurate no one would be hit.

in 1973 IAF airplanes had hit the C&C building of the syrian air force while avoiding the cells of Israeli pilots there.

not making any excuses but claims like yours are very inaccurate and has not hold in reality.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok you say that i quote inacurrate:

1. The exact sentence from the www.amnesty.org.il/ is

The Palestinians must be hit and it must be painful. We must cause them losses, victims, so they feel the heavy price" Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, speaking to the press on 5 March.

It says palestinians not TERRORIST and you can't not dissmies amnesty.org that's a fact.

2. Then intel was bad, hitting a area where there are hundreds of people living one on top of the other and you think that a bomb can hit sow acuartly. My god you are naive. It's not like the building was in the middle of nowhere. That area is more crowded then new york.

3.And you say sharon is a prick but he is still supported by the israeli people. The israeli people knew exctly who they had voted for in office it was the man that was behind the maskre of http://www.sabra-shatila.be/

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

This is why you can get terribly downgraded in a dissertation if your quotations are inaccurate or cut down". Any cheap newspaper in the world uses this silly strategy and it realy is anoying!

On the other hand Sharon is really not the person with a diplomatic language. I wonder what he would say if he could talk openly. I support the Isreali people in the fight against terorism (just as I support palestinian civillians). But Sharon... damm I hate his face...it is such a damm evil face...I can read in his eyes that he would pay any price to get what he wants.

BTW: I 100% support the idea to kick out the families of terorists (if they dont state openly on TV that they dont consider the deed as heroic). The problem is that not the terorists are the ones to blame (I mean indirectly) but the brainwashers and moral-preachers within the families. Whether this is against the human rights or not. It sounds smart to me. However I wonder if it would really work. The families would probably go to Lebanon, a country full of suicide recruiters.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It says palestinians not TERRORIST and you can't not dissmies amnesty.org that's a fact.

<span id='postcolor'>

you say Amnesty doesnt make "mistakes" doesnt bias?

only after immense preasure did they acknoledge that suicide attacks are crimes against humanity. Amnesty is no better then any other, and not every word out of their mouths coated with gold.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. Then intel was bad, hitting a area where there are hundreds of people living one on top of the other and you think that a bomb can hit sow acuartly. My god you are naive. It's not like the building was in the middle of nowhere. That area is more crowded then new york.

<span id='postcolor'>

not naive, more knoledgable then you apparently. you really dont know a thing about military operations so dont bother to comment on them.

use of a 2000 lbs bomb with variable fuse can decide when and where will the building be hit and how much damage would be caused.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3.And you say sharon is a prick but he is still supported by the israeli people. The israeli people knew exctly who they had voted for in office it was the man that was behind the maskre of <span'>http://www.sabra-shatila.be/<span id='postcolor'>

to his election Sharon can thank very much Arafat and his comrades.

hadnt they attack Israel with such bloodthirstiness he wouldnt be elected.

all of which doesnt make the slimmest excuse of any of the hundreds of suicide bombings and attacks on Israeli citizens.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, the first Palestinian suicide bombing occurred in 1994, as an act of revenge for the Goldstein massacre. On 6 April 1994, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli settler, shot dead 29 Palestinians praying in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque and wounded over 100 others before being killed himself. Here is an Israeli website honouring his memory.

Punchline: Baruch Goldstein was buried in the Palestinian territories and over the years, his grave has become a site of pilgrimage.

<span id='postcolor'>

this argument is supposedly legitimizes these attacks right?

what about before hand? what about other attacks on civilians? do you mean that before 6 April 1994, no israeli citizen had been shot, bombed or knifed? errrrrrr......wrong.

only few tens or hundreds support organizations of extremists in Israel, even these days. those who plan attacks on arabs are arrested and tried and sent to jail for a long time.

Hamas and other organizations prone on killing Israeli civilians are supporten en masse.

im not defering between a car bomb and a man bomb. they both target civilians, for being Israelis and Jews.

this form of excusing such things is pretty foul-tast.

the million dollar question you, bogo etc. are facing is:

do you condone ANY delibarate pre-planned attacks upon civilians?

if yes then things are clear thank you very much, but if you are not, then im amazed at the points you are taking. excusing colde blooded pre-planed murder done for decades by any sort of argument, is really out of the point.

argumenting that "palestinians dont have tanks etc." is not only tastless but immorral.

as ive said before, you wanna fight? go ahead, fight SOLDIERS not civilians, for myself i dont condone such acts. do you?

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,20:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It says palestinians not TERRORIST and you can't not dissmies amnesty.org that's a fact.

<span id='postcolor'>

you say Amnesty doesnt make "mistakes" doesnt bias?

only after immense preasure did they acknoledge that suicide attacks are crimes against humanity. Amnesty is no better then any other, and not every word out of their mouths coated with gold.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. Then intel was bad, hitting a  area where there are hundreds of people living one  on top of the other and you think that a bomb can hit sow acuartly. My god you are naive. It's not like the building was in the middle of nowhere. That area is more crowded then new york.

<span id='postcolor'>

not naive, more knoledgable then you apparently. you really dont know a thing about military operations so dont bother to comment on them.

use of a 2000 lbs bomb with variable fuse can decide when and where will the building be hit and how much damage would be caused.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3.And you say sharon is a prick but he is still supported by the israeli people. The israeli people knew exctly who they had voted for in office it was the man that was behind the maskre of <span id='postcolor'>

to his election Sharon can thank very much Arafat and his comrades.

hadnt they attack Israel with such bloodthirstiness he wouldnt be elected.

all of which doesnt make the slimmest excuse of any of the hundreds of suicide bombings and attacks on Israeli citizens.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>[b'>Quote[/b] </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, the first Palestinian suicide bombing occurred in 1994, as an act of revenge for the Goldstein massacre.  On 6 April 1994, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli settler, shot dead 29 Palestinians praying in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque and wounded over 100 others before being killed himself.  Here is an Israeli website honouring his memory.

Punchline:  Baruch Goldstein was buried in the Palestinian territories and over the years, his grave has become a site of pilgrimage.

<span id='postcolor'>

this argument is supposedly legitimizes these attacks right?

what about before hand? what about other attacks on civilians? do you mean that before 6 April 1994, no israeli citizen had been shot, bombed or knifed? errrrrrr......wrong.

only few tens or hundreds support organizations of extremists in Israel, even these days. those who plan attacks on arabs are arrested and tried and sent to jail for a long time.

Hamas and other organizations prone on killing Israeli civilians are supporten en masse.

im not defering between a car bomb and a man bomb. they both target civilians, for being Israelis and Jews.

this form of excusing such things is pretty foul-tast.

the million dollar question you, bogo etc. are facing is:

do you condone ANY delibarate pre-planned attacks upon civilians?

if yes then things are clear thank you very much, but if you are not, then im amazed at the points you are taking. excusing colde blooded pre-planed murder done for decades by any sort of argument, is really out of the point.

argumenting that "palestinians dont have tanks etc." is not  only tastless but immorral.

as ive said before, you wanna fight? go ahead, fight SOLDIERS not civilians, for myself i dont condone such acts. do you?<span id='postcolor'>

1. Ok you don't belive amnesty.org here are some of the links that quote the same sentence from ariel sharon :

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,216318,00.html

http://www.pchrgaza.org/Interventions/EUAppeal10March2002.pdf

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes....nd7.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/03/05/1014705049494.html

http://www.latsi.com/oneshots/i-031102.htm

Ges't tell me if you whant more links

2. Sow let see me an F-16 bomb can hit only the second floor the left apparment in the living room. Does it knock at the door first. In Building not a house with several familys living there a bomb can distinguiesh people. Man if you have that bomb you could be the richest man in the world.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. Sow let see me an F-16 bomb can hit only the second floor the left apparment in the living room. Does it knock at the door first. In Building not a house with several familys living there a bomb can distinguiesh people. Man if you have that bomb you could be the richest man in the world.<span id='postcolor'>

well thank you for proving me right

you can decide what floors would be hit:

1. you can spray shrapnel by using a milimetric radar to detonate some distance above the target

2. you can decide how many floors you want to topple using a delayed fuse, or if you want to topple the whole building

3. you can decide what side would be hit by lasing it

4. you can avoid shrapnel by using cellulose or copper casing that'll melt or evaporate.

you can even funnel the charge using semi-shaped charge.

unfortunatly these things were thought of many many years ago.

you still didnt answer my question mate. im waiting

[bogo 0]

Ok let say you are right. Then how come the building was totaly devasteted and the buildings near it half dameged.The building dosen't look like on one room or a floor has been dameged it looks like it totaly dameged.

you still didnt answer my question mate. im waiting

Hmm what i am i doing now

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

This amount of precision that you describe in a real-life scenario is a inapropriate. Especially since buildings collapse not ony by shrapnel but pressure waves and heat! You would need a mico-bunkerbuster for that!

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then how come the building was totaly devasteted and the buildings near it half dameged.The building dosen't look like on one  room or a floor has been dameged it looks like it totaly dameged.

<span id='postcolor'>

only one side of the building was damaged and the building across it were damaged. the house wasnt toppled and wasnt damaged throughly. the aiming was done to the side of the building

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you still didnt answer my question mate. im waiting

Hmm   what i am i doing now<span id='postcolor'>

sorry, i didnt make myself clear:

do you condone ANY delibarate pre-planned attacks upon civilians?

edit: BTW. hitting a single room of a building is doen best with ATGMs like hellfire, TOWs etc.