Games portraying the "real horrors of war"

[Cloney 0]

I happy with the gore currently in the game, it shows that war is not pretty. Like DayGlow said, it is surreal to just walk around the battlefield after a battle in OFP. The blown up tanks and the magled bodies of the crewmen sticking out and the soldiers killed by grenades.

The soldiers whose legs have been shot and they drag themselves around looking for a medic.

The poor civilians caught in the cross fire. The men who were in the 5-ton truck that was hit by Machine gun fire and they were torn to bits where they sat. The jeep that was flipped over when it was hit by an RPG round. The soldiers who advanced into the face of machine gun fire and were shot down where they ran. The soldiers who tried to retreat but were ruthlessly shot down. The Medic who tried to save an injured man but was killed by a tank shell going off next to him.

It is enough for me, I don't want to be scarred for life when I play a computer game.

[Nagual 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ April 01 2002,19:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe folks would like to see the horror just to learn more about war, as they might have the intention of never fighting in real life.<span id='postcolor'>

This is the whole reason why I brought up this matter. There are alot of people out there that want to know what war is really like (to some extend). The thing is that no game to date has showed much or less anything about the horrors of war, so I think it's time a game does that for a change.<span id='postcolor'>

I cant disagree with you if your motivation is gaining knowledge. I get the feeling though that a game like that would just be depressing and make me angry. But then again, that is all part of learning. If or when a game is made portraying some detailed war horror, if it is done well, it could maybe even show a thing or two too people who are not interested in war. If you are interested in learning more about the pyschological effects of war, then a game would definatley be better than any movie or book, as the interactivity would engage more aspects of your brain. And if it was a good quality production like opflash, then it could engage emotional systems and from there make you feel things, sad or angry if need be.

[Nagual 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ April 01 2002,18:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Nagual @ April 01 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I also think that opflash gives us a chance to learn about some of the "good" things about war, such as in multiplayer; working as team is good for people psychologically, so is cooperating in an intelligent way, or executing strategies against real human minds.<span id='postcolor'>

... or blow up a BMP without having to pay for it afterwards.

<span id='postcolor'>

lol...or coordinate a coop covert op with scuba gear ...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Arent games supposed to be fun? I dont think I would have too much fun if I spent most of my time ingame watching my pals gettin blown apart. Little spurts of something that might be blood is good enough for me.

[Nagual 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 01 2002,21:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arent games supposed to be fun?<span id='postcolor'>

I think they are Tex, but they are also a form of entertainment. Movies and books and other things are entertainment, but they can and do invoke things other than joy or fun.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Nagual @ April 01 2002,21:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think they are Tex, but they are also a form of entertainment. Movies and books and other things are entertainment, but they can and do invoke things other than joy or fun.<span id='postcolor'>

I saw Blackhawk Down, and although it was a decent movie, I definitely didnt enjoy watching it. Although a campaign based on BHD would be cool, do you really want a game where you have to drag a guy severed in half back into your Hummer? Where you have to mow down women and children to defend yourself just because they are mixed in with the people with guns? Like I said before, I think as far as horrors of war goes, games have advanced about as far as they should go.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 01 2002,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Although a campaign based on BHD would be cool, do you really want a game where you have to drag a guy severed in half back into your Hummer? Where you have to mow down women and children to defend yourself just because they are mixed in with the people with guns? Like I said before, I think as far as horrors of war goes, games have advanced about as far as they should go.<span id='postcolor'>

See, one thing that i think was missed by some people is that horrific acts of violence contribute to the psychological aspects of war. It would be some fierce mental punishment to have to do things like drag half of a living soldier back to your hummer, or mow down women and children because you cant distinguish them from all the hostiles and have no choice but to shoot. Even though we could still step back and say to ourselves "Its just a game", there would still be some part of us that would be thinking about stuff like that happening in real life.

[Aculaud 0]

and incidentally, in light of the fact that 57% of the voters said they really did want all the horros of war in their games, i think it goes without saying that "The Real Horrors Of War" differs for all of us. For me, the real horrors of war would be impossible to emulate in any game, because they would probably include the deaths of myself and everyone i enjoy having in my life.

[Sith 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ April 01 2002,23:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and incidentally, in light of the fact that 56% of the voters said they really did want all the horros of war in their games, i think it goes without saying that "The Real Horrors Of War" differs for all of us. For me, the real horrors of war would be impossible to emulate in any game, because they would probably include the deaths of myself and everyone i enjoy having in my life.<span id='postcolor'>

True

My personal view on 'the horrors of war' is a bit more subtle than simple gore and suffering. It's something that cant be visualised by the use of just graphics.

Ofcourse...I've never actually been in a war, and hope I never will be, but I imagine it to be something like this: Imagine the feeling that you're in a situation where you're really trying to make a difference, only to find out that your actions will not change anything to the whole situation. You feel tiny...helpless, and just have to try and pull yourself and your mates through day after day.

It's like a mix of stress, fear, desperation and sadness.

Hard to describe....but I worked out how to reproduce it in a game...so I'll do just that

[InqWiper 0]

I like the game just the way it is. If I see a civilian I can shoot him just cuz I feel like it, just because its so far from realism. I think that if people play games that are too realistic and it actually feels like you have killed someone, you will after a while stop careing. If I have had the feeling of killing people hundreds of times in a game, then maybe I wount care about real people. Maybe I will start killing people IRL over stuff that you would normaly just yell at them about. I think that getting the feeling of really killing someone will make you care less about lifes IRL. Sure you would know that you havent really killed anyone, but how would it feel? To have all the horrors of war you have to feel like you just killed someone that could have been your best friend if you had only gotten to know him. Knowing that its not a game wount help the way you feel. And soldier of forune is less realistic then OFP just cuz there is too much violence in it. Who belives that when U shoot a guy with a hotgun from 1 meter, he will actually fly 5 meters and both of his arms will come off?

I know that the more violence I see, the less I will care. I think that a game that makes people stop careing will not be allowed in any country anyway. So there is probably never gonna be a game that is so realistic that anyone can go play, maybe it will be used in the army because they have to deal with that kinda stuff when they go into war. But even GTA2 isnt allowed to be bought by anyone under 18 where I live, and that really doesnt feel like you kill real people. I dont wanna go to court and say: "What? He called me an idiot".

And my crime wass wipeing out his family and tourturing him to death. I play OFP because it is fun, if it was to realistic I wouldnt play it, and I would probably not be able to get my hands on it anyway because it would be banned in the whole Europe (hopefully). If you want to see what real war is like, there are movies and documentaries that gives you a good idea of what its like without making you a non-careing killing-machine.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ April 01 2002,23:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hard to describe....but I worked out how to reproduce it in a game...so I'll do just that <span id='postcolor'>

On that note, i'm curious to know what youve come up with.

[Sith 0]

I'm not gonna post my precious design docs on a forum lol

[Sith 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (InqWiper @ April 02 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I like the game just the way it is. If I see a civilian I can shoot him just cuz I feel like it, just because its so far from realism. I think that if people play games that are too realistic and it actually feels like you have killed someone, you will after a while stop careing. If I have had the feeling of killing people hundreds of times in a game, then maybe I wount care about real people. Maybe I will start killing people IRL over stuff that you would normaly just yell at them about. I think that getting the feeling of really killing someone will make you care less about lifes IRL. Sure you would know that you havent really killed anyone, but how would it feel? To have all the horrors of war you have to feel like you just killed someone that could have been your best friend if you had only gotten to know him. Knowing that its not a game wount help the way you feel. And soldier of forune is less realistic then OFP just cuz there is too much violence in it. Who belives that when U shoot a guy with a hotgun from 1 meter, he will actually fly 5 meters and both of his arms will come off?

I know that the more violence I see, the less I will care. I think that a game that makes people stop careing will not be allowed in any country anyway. So there is probably never gonna be a game that is so realistic that anyone can go play, maybe it will be used in the army because they have to deal with that kinda stuff when they go into war. But even GTA2 isnt allowed to be bought by anyone under 18 where I live, and that really doesnt feel like you kill real people. I dont wanna go to court and say: "What? He called me an idiot".

And my crime wass wipeing out his family and tourturing him to death. I play OFP because it is fun, if it was to realistic I wouldnt play it, and I would probably not be able to get my hands on it anyway because it would be banned in the whole Europe (hopefully). If you want to see what real war is like, there are movies and documentaries that gives you a good idea of what its like without making you a non-careing killing-machine.<span id='postcolor'>

Please read the entire discussion before replying dude. We all know games will not be able and should not be able to portray ALL horrors of war....we got to that conclusion a looong time ago. This discussion is about portraying the emotional and psychological consequences of war...not killing innocent women and kids.

Your point about games that make you think about the consequences of war and killing, resulting in people going on a killing spree of their own and all is, sorry to put it this way, complete bullshit...

You incline that a game that makes you think about what war and killing people really means, which shows how wrong it is....is in fact WORSE than a game that portrays killing people as a form of pure entertainment for us? That just doesnt make sense.

If a game that shows you how evil war and killing is will make you get out your gun and start shooting people because "you dont care anymore", then a game that shows you killing without any consequences will surely make even your dear granny go on a shotgun frenzy.

[arkadeyevich 0]

A great article about the horrors of war, and how it is hidden from the home front and ignored by the rear echolons.

It is a bit long, but is worth the time.

[RedStorm 0]

I'll go with an idea posted earlier here, about teammates dying and staying away for some time. That would really 'bond' you with the rest of your squad/clan, and would make it a bit worse than the regular "Oh, he died, hope he spawns again and comes back soon" or "oh, he died, let's just wait this round out until he gets back". Maybe the people that died in an online battle have to fight somewhere else, away from the rest of their squad? Hmmm...just a few ideas.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

Sometimes when an AI does something extraordinary, I can get a little fond of them and actually tries to protect them from pain. An example:

After an attack on a base, I and my 3 AI's jumped into a Skoda and embarked on what I was sure to be a suicide drive. We managed to drive past a Shilka (which made the ground alive with fire), a T55, 2 T72's and in the end a T80 which was actually ON the road ahead of us, guarding a base. We drove right inside the enemy base and ran over half a squad on guard duty just before the Skoda hit a building and got immobilized. As the Skoda was damaged, my men jumped out and now they started shooting up all the guards inside the base, as if inspired by our crazy ride. Not long after, the T80 reappeared and we got what we deserved...

But during this freaky trip I started to imagine that those 3 AIs with me actually was taking part in this crazy attack with body and soul. I felt all sad when they got killed.

I don't think it takes very much at all, to build up an emotional relationship to an AI, and thus feel more protective towards them. I'm certain this can be done in a game, if the design is focused on it.

Even simple tricks like making a trigger that tells you to abort your mission if half your men dies - that helps alot making the player care for their lives.

[InRange 1]

What would be great is giving the AI some 'emotions', like some already suggested earlier in this topic. For instance, soldiers cowering behind walls, heroic soldiers engaging the enemy at all costs, stuff like that. Not just some robot called 'George Dabak' or so who will engage a T-80 with a knife if you ask him to.

[RedStorm 0]

yes, I agree, the AI needs some emotions. I think that will make the gaming experience far more intense than it already is.

[Nagual 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ April 02 2002,10:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

For the sake of info, emotions could be incorporated using a simple template. There are four pure emotions, from which the "complicated" emotions find their source as a combination of the primary 4. These are; joy, fear, anger and melancholy. They all represent a desire. Joy; the desire to live. Fear; the desire to retreat (re-treat). Anger; the desire to fight. Melancholy; the desire to change.

This info is sourced from the knowledge of the ancient and modern toltec warriors, folks who know alot about war and human psychology.

[Hardliner 0]

After some thought having limbs blown off does seem not nessasary. It just seems strange to have a HEAT round fired at you direct hit and your still intact. I don't think having parts flying around like that would be too great but it would be suitable to me to have legs and arms "detactched" from the body but not flying everywhere. Maybe its a good idea to not have that at all seeing as it would make things more complicated especially for the people who would make it happen.

Actually in the American campaign I felt something I won't say it was strong feeling of anything but I had a slight feeling in me when Armstrongs squad was wiped out on Everon. I kind of do feel for the guys that get wiped out by tanks, APCs or anything like that. I guess it depends on the mood I'm in as I said before (I think). Also felt for the Resistance fighting a massive enemy with basically no chance on their own, altho I do prefer to be Russian in OFP.

I tend to be more affected by vehicals being blown up for some reason, the crew inside it but also oddly enough I feel sorry for the poor vehical itself being smashed up which might seem odd to you normal people out there. I had many ZSUs on Desert Island and put many Apaches in the distance and ran it with me as a Russian soldier. Half of the ZSUs went bang and that to me seemed a little sad, espcially with that Amen music going.

All in all I think the only REAL way you can feel anything in this game is if you... hell I can't find a way to put it. For me I think about the people as if their real, I really put myself in the situation, kind of like living my life through the computer which I know many of you will think and probably say is sad. But for me computer games are pretty much my life at the moment.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

Man 'o' man is this one long-arse thread.

Let me state this for the record: I do not feel "sad" when my squad gets killed. I do feel responsible. For instance, in the mission as Lt. when you have to escort 3 trucks (convoy) to the airport, I put all my men in that armored thingie (what's it called?, it's not a tank, but it has a mounted machine gun). I did this to keep them safe from snipers. Well, some RED SOB fired a rocket and blew the whole thing up killing all inside--some 6 or 7 men. I felt that that was a bad decision on my part. The next time around, I only put 2 in there: one to drive, one to shoot.

On another issue: What does Super AI mean? Specifically I want to know if setting the AI to super does this also increase their weapon's accuracy or does it just make them smarter--more alert? In the game, I have the AI set to normal, and they put up a good fight.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ April 02 2002,18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do not feel "sad" when my squad gets killed. I do feel responsible.<span id='postcolor'>

It was not sad. I thought deeply about it happening in real life. I don't cry over it. Hell sometimes I turn on my own squad wiping them out or getting shot by them in the process. Its all to do with thinking about it happening in real life. With the world being as it is its not stupid to think about things like this, as it is all happening now. I know that most people don't or are "unable" to think when playing games...

[Ether Dragon 0]

I voted for total realism, but I guess I just wasn't being as imaginative as some here. I'm not interested in gore, but I am interested in technical reality. Weapons and equipment should operate as close to real-life parameters as possible. If I shoot a guy in the head, I don't want to see his health bar drop a little, I want to see him drop completely. If I shoot him in the arm, I want to see him drop his weapon. If enough of his buddies drop around him, I wouldn't mind seeing him surrender (that's something I really like about Rogue Spear.) I don't need to see a leg blown off, just that the victim acted apropriately for no longer being able to use that leg would be fine. OF does a good job in some instances, but I don't think it models damage to different areas as effectively as it should. Bullets ripping through walls. If a soldier gets hit, he should fall down - even if his body armor saves him, the impact should have an effect.

I've been in front-line war, and you don't want to see the true horrors of it in a game, even if it's a simulation. Heck, you couldn't if you wanted to. The smells, the fear, the feel, it's just not there - and that's a good thing. So, when I say I want all the horrors of war, keep in mind that I'm just looking at the technical aspects, not the gore factor.

[InqWiper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please read the entire discussion before replying dude. We all know games will not be able and should not be able to portray ALL horrors of war....we got to that conclusion a looong time ago. This discussion is about portraying the emotional and psychological consequences of war...not killing innocent women and kids.

Your point about games that make you think about the consequences of war and killing, resulting in people going on a killing spree of their own and all is, sorry to put it this way, complete bullshit...

You incline that a game that makes you think about what war and killing people really means, which shows how wrong it is....is in fact WORSE than a game that portrays killing people as a form of pure entertainment for us? That just doesnt make sense.

If a game that shows you how evil war and killing is will make you get out your gun and start shooting people because "you dont care anymore", then a game that shows you killing without any consequences will surely make even your dear granny go on a shotgun frenzy.

<span id='postcolor'>

I had read the whole thread.

I didnt say people would go on a killing spree because they have to think about what they do in the game. Maybe you need to read my posts 3 times to understand what Im writing. I said that games that make you feel like you are actually killing someone would make you care less and increase the chance of you killing someone IRL. No 1 says "I want all the horrors of war. I want it to be as real as it gets".

Now your saying that its not about killing women and children, then maybe you should have been a little more specific, because all means all, and all horrors of war includes killing women and children.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (InqWiper @ April 02 2002,20:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I said that games that make you feel like you are actually killing someone would make you care less and increase the chance of you killing someone IRL.<span id='postcolor'>

i get what your saying. Your talking about how someone impressionable might become used to killing people under those circumstances (A game as realistic as your talking about), and wouldnt feel as much remorse about doing it in real life.

heh, quite an interesting, and successful i might add, thread i started here.

One interesting thing i feel i should point out and ask the OFP community at this point; I want to point out that we now have close to 60% of voters here that said they really did want ALL the horrors of war in their games, yet everyone whos ever been in combat before has said that its something you really DONT want to have in your games. Something iv just now been thinking about is that, if we really did have a game that real, would it still be a game?

Think about the nature of a game. A game entails fun. It entails excitement, joy, entertainment, in some cases physical excercise, and so forth. Does a game entail fear? Desperation? Guilt? Remorse? A strong sense of stress? The deaths of your loved ones, and quite possibly you too? Just something to think about....