Make Mortars more User-Friendly

[Tomcat13 10]

I'm a big fan of indirect fire. I love the idea of supporting my team-mates in a multiplayer game by hiding in a nearby forest with a mortar and providing them with support fire from afar when they request it.

But with the way artillery is set up right now, it seems like that will be a somewhat uncommon thing. Mortars are static objects and can only be placed with the mission editor? Is that correct? If so it's a real shame and I would like to see mortars that are available in ammo crates/supply crates and also make it so that they can be carried by an infantryman.

Perhaps it could take up a certain amount of slots that would make lugging around a mortar possible but costly in terms of inventory space? It just seems that being able to run around the map with a mortar providing indirect fire support to my squad of team-mates would be a lot of fun and open up tons of possibilities in terms of tactics. Also by making mortars mobile, small groups of infantry could pull off shoot and scoot/hit and run tactics against stationary targets. Imagine being able to play as an insurgent and going on missions where your objective is to mortar a military base and then pack it up and move when enemy helicopters come looking for you. I can't be the only one who sees the possibilities.

So to re-cap:

Make mortars available in a way that you don't have to physically add them via the map editor. Make them available in the way that anti-tank weapons are available.

Perhaps implement a simple fire mission menu that team-mates in a multiplayer game can use to call for indirect fire?

Make it so that mortars can be packed up and moved from location to location as they can be in reality.

I'm in the U.S. and I don't have the game yet, so i'm going off of what i've seen of the mortar system in youtube videos. If anybody who has the game could correct any mistakes i've made please feel free too.

[IceShade 0]

Well, so far you can at least make one of those .. sorta.. true. You can use the attachTo command to attach the mortar to .. let's say.. the back of a truck.

Sort of like the Sdkfz 250/7 used in World War 2, like in the picture:

You could even attach a machinegun to the back, as well :D

[Sweeet 10]

?

[Nemesis_wales 0]

well the british are using th eold 432 renamed bulldog to fire the mortars out of back, ive also seen a pic/video of a similar setup for a US vehicle. i really was hoping it woul dof made it into game, or at least man backaple mortars, or unload from truck, then ammo is stored on truck etc

[frederf 0]

ACE, WGL, and other mods will come along and finish BIS's work for them. The "break crew serve weapon into pieces, transport, and reassemble" tricks have been around since OFP, just not officially done because the 2 days work isn't worth BIS's time apparently.

Personally I think mortars should not be user friendly to aim, but of course should be able to be hauled by a squad if they are masochists. A good elev/azi readout, a ballistic calculator, and rest is left up to our overworked neurons.

[--)arkRaideR 10]

:icon14:Tomcat13

i totally agree and understand what u mean, well in fact i´ve tried to ask the

same question just with less words, then i was moved to the mod and scripting

section, now i know why :D the mortar is just a "toy" in the editor like the small

artillery cannons, which i dunno thought can also be used manually

the mortar is a difficult weapon and should stay difficult ingame also, but as

you said - it opens a great variation of tactics

[Tomcat13 10]

I do believe the mortars should require a lot of practice and skill to us effectively. I don't think the aiming system should be dumbed down in any way.

I'm simply arguing that as of right now it seems unfair that mortars and artillery are being advertised as a part of the game's weapon loadout when in reality they seem to be more like unfinished toys you can dig up in the mission editor and fool around with by yourself.

Perhaps this will change with a patch, and I certainly hope that is the case. The whole point of mortars is that they are supposed to be man-portable artillery. So why should they be static objects? It just doesn't make sense. :confused:

[Creation 10]

Make the mortars like the deployable MG in Acemod from Arma 1, without the need for having 2 parts and 2 people. And the Mortar ammunition could take up the slots where handgun clips are held (not clips i know, had a brain blank)

Of course the disadvantages are weight, and to rareness of ammo.

[Mike Miller 0]

http://www.arma2.com/artillerie_de.html

i would welcome deployable 8.1cm mortars (like the static ACE weapons) or 12cm heavy mortars on APC's like the m113 or other. or the 12cm can also have some kind of cariage on 2 weels that can be towed by any vehicle.

i agree that a aiming system with like azimut(direction)/elevation/charge would be not be too easy to use and more imersive than like one where you just click on the map where to fire.

but a rangechart (like in RL) on the elevation/charge would be helpfull.

on the other side a support system on directly observed targets with the lasermarker used by a FAC/Observer would be also nice.

hard to implement

so if the mortarcrew gets a request with coordinates they have to check the map for the own and the targets position. establish direction and distance to target, check the rangechart for elevation and charge and set it on the mortars.

if a observer is available, corrections radioed on distance and lenth should be possible e.g. longer 100m, to the left 200m. something similar would be nice for artillery.

easier to implement

have the observer mark the target with the lasermarker. firerequest to mortarcrew via radio. mortarcrew needs to choose ammo and manually fire it.

if you need more info on mortars, just ask me, since i was a Forward Mortar Observer in the army...

btw. i already love A2. the bugs are in no relation to the imersion and fun!

cheers bis

Edited June 4, 2009 by Mike Miller

[Creation 10]

Maybe a simple community mod could be like the Mando hitch from Arma 1 used to move MHQ with choppers, but instead put it on back of a humvee reverse to mortar and just like Mando hitch click "lift vehicle/drop vehicle".

Of course this has the disadvantage of mando hitch making the towed object skip and flicker.

[frederf 0]

[)arkRaideR;1297292']the mortar is just a "toy" in the editor like the smallartillery cannons

I'm simply arguing that as of right now it seems unfair that mortars and artillery are being advertised as a part of the game's weapon loadout when in reality they seem to be more like unfinished toys you can dig up in the mission editor and fool around with by yourself.

I got a leaning-on by Dyslecxi for being too harsh on BIS in the previous post' date=' and perhaps I am verbally, but not in concept. The quote that best expresses this sentiment shared is, <snip> It's continually frustrating for BIS to do all these great work, vehicles, and other improvements (which really are very impressive) but have their fullest realization held back by a lack of a complete vision of how it's going to work in game by normal people.

Make the mortars like the deployable MG in Acemod from Arma 1, without the need for having 2 parts and 2 people.

Agree on the deployable, disagree on making it a 1-man operation. Even a 60mm mortar with the lightweight baseplate is a very hefty load for a single man, plus I like teamwork especially for something with that kind of firepower.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Berghoff
Please don't discuss PM in public please

[DaveP 66]

Maybe a simple community mod could be like the Mando hitch from Arma 1 used to move MHQ with choppers, but instead put it on back of a humvee reverse to mortar and just like Mando hitch click "lift vehicle/drop vehicle".

Of course this has the disadvantage of mando hitch making the towed object skip and flicker.

Now with commands like attachTo we can do this with far less skip/flicker lag, it seems

[Tomcat13 10]

I have been thinking that perhaps mortars could be broken down into two or three pieces, and each piece could take up a secondary weapon slot. Also the mortar ammunition could be carried but would take up the same amount of space in the same sort of way that grenades do. This way it would be difficult for one man to transport a mortar as transportation would be difficult and ammo would be scarce, and therefore teamwork would be necessary to move and set one up on foot unless a vehicle like a truck or humvee was available in which case the mortar could be dismantled and stored in the vehicle like any other weapon.

So it would be a potent and mobile weapon, but would require considerable logistics and planning out where to set it up and figuring out how to get it there.

Statements like "maybe it can be done in a mod" really make me nervous. I don't want to have to download a mod to do this. I would like to see mortars made available in the vanilla version of the game in a way that is accessible without needing to fool around with the mission editor. It is being advertised as a weapon that will be available in-game, so I would like to see it available in multiplayer games as often as possible with as little hassle as possible.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Tomcat13

[frederf 0]

Tomcat, that's basically what the WGL-ACE-ACE2 mods do for OFP, ArmA, and ArmA2 respectively. It's a well established method as far as possibility, balance, teamwork, fun, etc go, just something that BIS has yet to adopt it in an official capacity.

I too understand the worry of relying on mods. It's rather difficult to get a cohesive player base (and thus some large and fun games) if there are 1,001 mod combinations going around. A lot of people will never use one.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'm a big fan of indirect fire. I love the idea of supporting my team-mates in a multiplayer game by hiding in a nearby forest with a mortar and providing them with support fire from afar when they request it.

And I hope includes also smoke, wp, and illumination? Be sure to ask them before pounding with things that go boom.

Using mortars directly from the editor might not be possible the way you want it. But it can be scripted with some experience. And as mentioned, ACE and others are just waiting to dissect this into multi crew operated equipment.

@Mike Miller:

I can't really see the usage for the mortars you suggested. I think there is more than enough firepower and support options with the equipment already in the game. Handling destruction causes lag, at least in Arma1.

About the call for fire:

Point & click is just too magical, especially for fire for effect missions.

* For an adjust mission, designate own and target grids using 6 digit grids, by typing or clicking on numbers. If no aids are available, the FO better be good with terrain recognition :)

* You can shift and repeat an adjust mission.

* A fire for effect mission in grid mode is not possible before at least one adjust mission lands.

* Alternatively, designate own position using 10 digit grid, followed by a polar target designation (degrees would suffice, no need for mils). Then you can do a fire for effect directly.

@Creation: In real life a mortar crew is typically 3-5 men (depending on caliber and how much ammo you want to carry I guess). In Arma2, I would at least like a requirement for two guys to enforce some teamwork, pluss the observers guiding the rounds in if needed (regular players). More than that would become too chaotic I think. ACE could strive for the full realism here, no problem. Not so sure BIS should considering all the other shortcuts.

[Tomcat13 10]

And I hope includes also smoke, wp, and illumination? Be sure to ask them before pounding with things that go boom.

Of course ;)

Using mortars directly from the editor might not be possible the way you want it. But it can be scripted with some experience. And as mentioned, ACE and others are just waiting to dissect this into multi crew operated equipment.

That's exactly my point though. If I buy the game I shouldn't be limited to playing around with a gimick in the mission editor that isn't fully implemented in the game or have to rely on modifications by third parties in order to use a weapon. It is being advertised as being a weapon available in the game, so it should be available in-game in both single and multiplayer rather than just something to mess around with in the mission editor.

If it's just going to be something to play around with in the mission editor or something for the modding community to do something with, then that is fine. But they shouldn't be advertising it as something that is a part of the game in the way that they are, it seems misleading.

But perhaps this will change with a patch? :confused:

[Alex72 1]

But its in the editor for a reason - to be put in missions - for you to play with. But if a mission doesnt have mortar then its not there for you to use as the mission is made such. Or do you want to have all weapons in all missions?

The mortars will definatelly be made usable soon enough in missions.

[--)arkRaideR 10]

Well good to hear that it will be usable, actually when i heard mortar i was

thinking about this thing http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mortar/M224.html

because its man portable, the tricky thing will be the aiming interface

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If I buy the game I shouldn't be limited to playing around with a gimick in the mission editor that isn't fully implemented in the game or have to rely on modifications by third parties in order to use a weapon. It is being advertised as being a weapon available in the game, so it should be available in-game in both single and multiplayer rather than just something to mess around with in the mission editor.

What is fully implemented in the game?

* Tank FCS? No.

* Realistic attach helicopter gunnery? No.

* NVG simulation (quality, sight compatibility, battery requirements)? No.

* SMAW? Due to lack of tracer rounds, I'd say... No.

* Backblast and overpressure simulation? No.

* Weight and encumbrance simulation? No.

* T&E aiming for indirect fires (i.e. Mk19)? No.

* Backpack systems? No.

* ++++++? No.

You get the picture.

Will modders be able to? Probably never to the full extend due to engine limitations, but we'll see a lot of enhancements, believe me.

The equipment is now in the game. A lot of equipment is in the game. Not much have proper functionality. Modders will have to do that eventually. Give it time, and you'll see a lot of stuff available. Fastroping is already out for those who wants to use it. Why? Because BIS gave us the tools needed (one simple command) to do it that can be used for many things, instead of just giving us fastroping (which many won't even use in their mission).

Btw, in "the game" (the campaign), you're part of a force recon team. They don't carry mortars.

[walker 0]

I'm a big fan of indirect fire. I love the idea of supporting my team-mates in a multiplayer game by hiding in a nearby forest with a mortar and providing them with support fire from afar when they request it...

my use of bold.

BAD BAD Tomcat13

You do not fire mortars from Forrest.

That way suicide lies

When you want to set up a mortar first thing you do is check for top cover.

Mortar hit tree Mortar team dead.

Maybe Tomcat13 should have called this thread: Make Mortars more User-Unfriendly

Warily sidles away from Tomcat13 and his suicide mortar.

Edited June 10, 2009 by walker

[frederf 0]

I think he meant that if you come across a mortar and you have 8 AIs under you, that's all you need. You could do all the basic things with the mortar that you could do in real life, not all the niggly details like overheating and bubblesights. You could pick it up, you could man it, you could fire it. Right now it has to be delicately pre-setup in the mission editor (which you don't have access to in the mission) for a rather rigid implementation.

The 81mm mortar is certainly man-portable just like the 60mm, just heavier. Don't misunderstand the word "man-portable" which means that it is practically carried by men plural.

Also firing from a forest is perfectly fine if there's enough gap in the trees for round clearance. Silly.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Frederf

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The 'mission editor' doesn't allow you to pick it up and place it where ever you want, out of the box. It needs some scripting. But rest asure there will be missions that enables you to move it.

There is a lot of stuff that doesn't 'work fully' without the aid of some scripts.

Speaking of which, how does the ammo truck work nowadays? Does it fill up all commander turrets magazines?

[Tomcat13 10]

I think he meant that if you come across a mortar and you have 8 AIs under you, that's all you need. You could do all the basic things with the mortar that you could do in real life, not all the niggly details like overheating and bubblesights. You could pick it up, you could man it, you could fire it. Right now it has to be delicately pre-setup in the mission editor (which you don't have access to in the mission) for a rather rigid implementation.

The 81mm mortar is certainly man-portable just like the 60mm, just heavier. Don't misunderstand the word "man-portable" which means that it is practically carried by men plural.

Also firing from a forest is perfectly fine if there's enough gap in the trees for round clearance. Silly.

Thank you, that's exactly what I meant. You can absolutely fire a mortar from a forest so long as you find a clearing in it.

And yes when I mean man-portable I mean that a small squad of soldiers should be able to take it apart and transport it. It would be nice if this could be done without needing to script it or rely on mods. I would like to see this implemented into the plain vanilla version of the game. That's what my entire suggestion really is and the purpose of this thread.

[maltod 10]

ok guys, i know this might be a bit off topic here, but i have no idea how to use/command the mortar team in the ACE mod. I place a mortar group and make the leader the player but then i'm stuck-Same goes for the M2 browning. Also, there aren't any specific mortar units (that i can find).

if I'm waay off topic here i can start a new thread but any help would be appreciated