Complexity Arma's greatest advantage?

[Second 0]

As every reaction is scripted in ArmA, it isn't much different from corridor shooters. You, Walker, can't run away from it.

Have you looked at mission editor of Vietcong, Farcry, Crysis? I bet you haven't. You overestimate need of script AI in corridor shooters, sure something like COD4 relies heavily on it because it was designed to work that way, but not nearly all. It isn't much else than in ArmA. In corridor shooters they just manage their actions better as individuals with same amount of scripting (waypoints) as in ArmA.

So what Vietcong for example lacks in open endness it gains in immersiveness and tactical problems in firefights. Firefights which happens in thinner or wider corridors but offer yet wide selection of actions which player can do. AI offers much better opponent compared to ArmA, and there is rich microterrain which offers options to try to overcome AI (unlike in ArmA).

I overall think you, Walker, indeed are prisoner of your mind. Your prison is Real Virtuality Engine.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Second.

No the AI in ArmA is not scripted. Yes you can run FSM's in ArmA but the environment is large and complex making it impossible to script every movement as in say Vietcong.

The majority of ArmA AI is generalised and heuristic rather than scripted in defined algorithms.

This is what gives the Real Virtuality engine its diversity of response. Do not believe me? Set up a mission two Guarded by triggers one Bluefor one Redfor. Five groups of AI on each side BlueFor and RedFor with guard waypoints for each. Put your self in Civilian friendly to both or if you have the capability set up an observation script.

Run the mission.

You will not see the same mission twice (unless you seriously constrain the AI say making one side inherently better in some aspect) What you will see is emergent behaviour because of the inherent complexity. You will not get this degree of complexity of results in any other game.

This is why I posed the question "Complexity Arma's greatest advantage? "

Kind Regards walker

[.kju 3245]

What is the difference between scripted AI and FSM AI?

Essential both are based on a rule set to larger or smaller degree.

Apart from completely scripted AI for every action, it is more or

less the same from a practical sense - so far.

[walker 0]

What is the difference between scripted AI and FSM AI?

Hi All

Q there is no difference an FSM is a script.

ArmA AI is not just FSM running in a narowly defined environment though.

Both the complex environment and the interaction of it with multiple FSM based invidual entities creates emergent behaviour. In much the same way complex behavours are created in swarms, flocks and schools.

Kind Regards walker

[.kju 3245]

Still arma operates on a rule set too, does it not?

It may be more complex, yet the result is what counts.

-

PS: I dont agree that FSM = script.

FSM = finite state machines.

You can script a FSM too, yet not every script is a FSM.

[Second 0]

No the AI in ArmA is not scripted. Yes you can run FSM's in ArmA but the environment is large and complex making it impossible to script every movement as in say Vietcong.

Every waypoint is script it self this in ArmA as in any other corridor shooter. AI in Vietcong has just few types of waypoint. They do what they do by that, engage enemy, pull back, advance, take cover, it's all there behind there waypoint types coded into game. Main characters' (pointman's) waypoint are more advanced (and well made) but player can ignore those and tell team to follow him across other route while his men will follow him and fight "creatively".

I know guard-waypoint. It's about ArmA's openness, which doesn't belong to corridor shooters as they have little use of it (limited area, limited amount of units). However in your example we have squads moving in unpredictable manner (or not, depends of case), while in Vietcong (for example) we have individuals moving/acting in unpredictable manner (or not, depends of case). When i'm the one watching thru iron sights or optics and taking shots at enemy i like more of the later.

Even more: Fights are not chaos in the way things usually turns out to be in guard waypoint, guard waypoint is usable just in limited cases. As with guard waypoint they don't follow coherent plan, reason why more plan focused scripting (=waypoints) is very much needed always. So in the end we see just as scripted (=waypointed) action as in any corridor shooter. Move you squad from here to there and then there. Always, replay after replay. This is the reality of ArmA as it is reality of most shooters.

[walker 0]

Hi all

FSM is still a Turing Machine Q but I postulate that because it creates chaotic emergent behaviour ArmA is not just a Turing Machine

Kind Regards walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

To Second I disagree with you strongly on the matter of Guard waypoints

I point to the large missions using CEX and just Guard waypoints as the oposition. I and others have experienced extremely complex strategic behaviour.

I suggest you try a few.

I have also had this in very large scale MP coops where the AI are set in Guard.

Yes I know this is all anecdotal but mathematics tells us that this type of emergent behaviour in inevitable in such a complex environment as ArmA.

To tell the truth I think what is needed is a statistical analysis to prove it, otherwise you are not going to be convinced.

Kind Regards walker

[Second 0]

I believe i've tried one for those CEX missions... However i wasn't very impressed (sadly). I who have commanded company-corps level units in other games [Me so Strong, Me Tarzan, Me hits My Chest now]. Anyways it doesn't much count in my point of view, as i didn't say that Arma wouldn't be complex as it is if we open editor and start to look at things... It's just ArmA ain't complex in it's main playing field, which is that shooter part. Me, my mouse, iron sights on monitor forming (un-)holy alliance while trying to take out virtual enemies.

...

So ArmA is shooter, i look enemy thru my ironsights/optics and try to kill that bugger or tell my guys do do that. In this i find out that corridor shooter's provide more complex situations&solutions in sense of me trying to take out my opponents or reaching my objectives.

[Nicolas Eymerich 0]

Is complexity Arma's greatest advantage?

No.

The complexity of the game is one of the negatives.

+ 1.

[Raphier 0]

+ 1.

Define complexity :rolleyes:

[PhilippRauch 0]

I love ArmA for its Sandbox thingy ... and thats complex for me already... :) i came from Rainbow Six and the first Ghost Recon and just recently we showed ArmA to some hardcore shooter guys and they where like "Whoa? I can run around there too??" ... meaning for me its as complex as you as player can think of tactics/strategies to do your fun. I mean doing the same SP Mission over and over with the same approach is just too boring for me, even IF i would KNOW its the best possible approach, but the engine teaches me different everytime (depends a lot on missions designer too, of course).

[SaBrE_UK 0]

If the game weren't so complex it wouldn't have as much replay value. Now there are cons with the complexity but on the whole it's a good thing, or we wouldn't have the mod community we enjoy. There's a reason they've picked this game to mod and haven't just gone to help work on Project Reality.

[PhilippRauch 0]

Actually... from the perspective of a new player the key setup would be the most complex 'mission' at the beginning... to get a proper key setup you need to know whats inside first, but that you know only after you played some time AND studied the game more indepth... which is hardly what 'gamers' do...

Did you ever see one read the manual before playing their games first time? no they jump in and go like they used to... thats a major drawback for arma in my eyes... then comes the visual 'overstimulation' of stuff going on and you dying quite easily which totally offbalances you.

I did also had with the first arma (after years of OFP playing) my problems and was disappointed(not really, rather overwhelmed) with the game being 'unplayable' ... which of course settled after a few weeks of it sitting on my shelves and then trying again. And that wasnt because of bugs, since i hardly realized those anyway, till today i dont, but thats maybe because i am OFP-hardened after so many years playing OFP...