Syrian Army Pack

[Supernova 0]

Miles Teg,

It should also be known that along with the RPG-7V and RPG-29 the Syrian army uses the RPG-27 albeit in less quantities due to cost and one shot use.

[miles teg 1]

Yup.  I'm not sure if anyone ever made a RPG-27 for OFP however.  So until we find an addon maker who knows how to make one from scratch that'll have to wait.  

At any rate, the RPG-7VR and the RPG-29 will give our IDF Merkavas a hard time.  In real life, Hezbollah did a lot of dammage to IDF armor using not just ATGM's like the Kornet, but also using RPG-29's and RPG-7VR rockets.  

It just goes to show that if Saddam Hussein's Iraqi Army had been properly equipped with the latest RPG's and Russian ATGM's (like the Kornet) and properly trained on how to use them, they could have put a world of hurt into American armored and mechanized forces.  Even the older Milan's and various older Russian ATGM's they utterly failed to employ. I didn't hear of a single engagement in which the Iraqi's used ATGM's.  That was wierd.

Whats hard in ArmA is that it's difficult to spot ATGM's and thus its hard to take evasive maneuvers.  So what I've found useful playing as a tank commander is to order the tank forward to pop up on top of a hill, identify a target, order the gunner to fire, and then order the driver to reverse on a slope which is usually followed by RPG's and ATGM's slamming into the hillside on the otherside and not my tank.

One thing I've yet to practice is hulls-down position firing on slopes.  In OFP this didn't work as somehow the AI shot through the top part of hill slopes.  I need to test to see whether this is the case in ArmA as well.  

EDIT-

Kick ass...hulls down tactics do work!!!  Enemy tanks didn't even fire, but BMP2's lobbed ATGM's like crazy all hitting the slope. Meanwhile, the mk4 in the hulls-down position was able to return fire and destroy all enemy armor except one that hid behind a building...but then came back out and was destroyed. 

This is good news for those who want to simulate good tank battles between our IDF tanks (when they are released) and our Syrian tanks (we will be making an ERA equipped variant that'll withstand at least one hit from the Mk4's 120mm).

See pic below of how hulls down tactics work:

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Supernova 0]

Quote[/b] ] I didn't hear of a single engagement in which the Iraqi's used ATGM's. That was wierd.

On the contrary. I heard that there was an engagement (2003 OIF) in where an Americans M1A1 abrams was disabled or even heavily damaged. The americans thought it was a Kornet missile fired by the Iraqi's but a later search and eventual discovery turned out to reveal it was a FAGOT (AT-4 Spigot). There was an RPG-26 model (orcs rpg pack 3.0) that could easily be modified into an RPG-27. Also Iraqi insurgents (smuggling weapons from Syria) have used RPG-27's but albeit less due to cost and one shot use , it turns out RPG-29's are cheaper to purchase than a RPG-27.

[echo1 0]

The RHS weapons pack has an RPG-27

[miles teg 1]

Surprisingly I've not seen alot of evidence of Syrian weapons in Iraq as far as anything modern. I've seen an RPG-27 (or at least it looked like one) in one pic, but from everyone I know in the Army over there (or who have been there), the newer model RPG's have not been a serious problem. In other words, the Syrian Army is not actively supplying insurgents like they did Hezbollah. If a serious supply of RPG-29's started entering into Iraq, then you'd see alot more armored vehicles disabled or destroyed including M1A1's which the RPG-29 should be able to penetrate (at least the side and rear armor). But nevertheless, I'm sure a few are getting in.

I find it funny that all these blogs and websites claim that there are just hordes of RPG-29's, RPG-27's, and RPG-7VR's flooding Iraq and yet they don't cite their evidence other then the same pics of dammaged or destroyed tanks that the US military experts have already explained. The only one that I found that had evidence was one that claimed that twice British Challenger2 tanks have had their armor penetrated by the RPG-29. In at least one of the cases it went though the front hull that was also protected by ERA.

There is an interesting discussion here about it: http://www.tank-net.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t21017.html

So yeah overall, the RPG-29 is a serious weapon.

I'm not familiar with the report of the M1 that was knocked out by an AT-4 Fagot, however most of the pics I've seen of dammaged or destroyed M1's were (if not from IED's or VBE's) from standard RPG-7's fired into the roof of the tank or into the rear hull and turret. There was one side penetration (with lots of pics on the internet) but last I heard it was agreed upon by most that it was a standard RPG-7 that just happened to hit a weak point in the side armor.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[wld427 1705]

Quote[/b] ] I didn't hear of a single engagement in which the Iraqi's used ATGM's.  That was wierd.

On the contrary. I heard that there was an engagement (2003 OIF) in where an Americans M1A1 abrams was disabled or even heavily damaged. The americans thought it was a Kornet missile fired by the Iraqi's but a later search and eventual discovery turned out to reveal it was a FAGOT (AT-4 Spigot). There was an RPG-26 model (orcs rpg pack 3.0) that could easily be modified into an RPG-27. Also Iraqi insurgents (smuggling weapons from Syria) have used RPG-27's but albeit less due to cost and one shot use , it turns out RPG-29's are cheaper to purchase than a RPG-27.

this happened on highway 1 going northbound. there were actually a couple Abrams damaged. one i know was from mines and the other Abrams was disabled and an A-10 was called in to destroy it in order to not leave anything for the enemy. They used spigots and spandrels fired from behind concrete barriers on the overpass.

We moved through the area the following day and later that day ran into the unit at a FARP.

[miles teg 1]

Its odd that more such attacks didn't happen.  If Saddam's generals had any sense they would have bought huge amounts of those ATGM's (rather than blowing money on tanks they knew were obsolete) and set up large numbers of tank killing teams comprised of ATGM crews coupled with RPG/PKM/Rifle teams for close defense.   I guess those guys who laid that attack knew what they were doing...of coarse the poor bastards probably got the hell blown out of them after they sprung their ambush.  A good infantryman knows that once you piss off a tank, you haul ass if not, the tank's plattoon exact revenge along with supporting mechanized infantry and their IFV's.   Did the Iraqi's have a getaway vehicle or something?  Or did they stupidly try to hold the overpass?

Overall though, it seems like Iraqi infantry had very little imagination when it came to stopping enemy armor.  Those that faught seemed brave but stupid.

Maybe I'll make a mission like that with the Syrians infantry.  I just wish we had some Kornets in ArmA.  For now RPG's will have to suffice.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[dreday 1]

Its odd that more such attacks didn't happen. If Saddam's generals had any sense they would have bought huge amounts of those ATGM's (rather than blowing money on tanks they knew were obsolete)

It's not a matter of the generals having (or not) any sense. The simple matter of fact is that Iraq was under a severe arms embargo post 1991. They might have been able to procure a small number of the advanced ATGMs on a black market, but certainly no "huge amounts". Thus for better or worse, they had to fight with what they had built up in 1980s for their conventional war with Iran...

Peace,

DreDay

[wld427 1705]

Its odd that more such attacks didn't happen.  If Saddam's generals had any sense they would have bought huge amounts of those ATGM's (rather than blowing money on tanks they knew were obsolete) and set up large numbers of tank killing teams comprised of ATGM crews coupled with RPG/PKM/Rifle teams for close defense.   I guess those guys who laid that attack knew what they were doing...of coarse the poor bastards probably got the hell blown out of them after they sprung their ambush.  A good infantryman knows that once you piss off a tank, you haul ass if not, the tank's plattoon exact revenge along with supporting mechanized infantry and their IFV's.   Did the Iraqi's have a getaway vehicle or something?  Or did they stupidly try to hold the overpass?

Overall though, it seems like Iraqi infantry had very little imagination when it came to stopping enemy armor.  Those that faught seemed brave but stupid.

Maybe I'll make a mission like that with the Syrians infantry.  I just wish we had some Kornets in ArmA.  For now RPG's will have to suffice.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

I personally did not witness the fight, but there were definately alot of wild dogs having good meals. Curiously they had hundreds of ZU-23s that they attempted to use for static defense all over the country. i saw 4 on that overpass. I think that the arms embargo really did hurt them as planned. The majority of the Iraqi equipment i had seen was in such poor shape that even spare parts would not have save some of those T-72s and T-62s. Besides a .50cal API will go in one side of a T-55 turret and right out the other side,  and a Mk-19 makes scrap metal out of a BMP. Hard to defend in equipment like that. They knew that the rout was coming.

In Mosul we found large stocks of AT-4s still in the Russian crates. As well as several BRDM ATGM vehicles ( our tank ID cards called the BRDM 3s but i think thats incorrect)

Also, there were several storehouses full of 1980s era TOW missiles. We never located any of the launching equipment.

In Haditha i saw several MILAN systems that were captured intact and never used.

its still odd that the date on those Exocets the British found were from 1998.....

[Supernova 0]

Quote[/b] ]

its still odd that the date on those Exocets the British found were from 1998.....

No matter how much you enforce an embargo things can still comethrough. They could be labeled as tractor parts or anything. Keep in mind though Iraq before Desert Storm was to acquire great technology even the Mi-28A but invasion of Kuwait stopped that. It was no big wonder that Iraq lost both wars. Their modernization programme's , training , doctrine etc.... were outdated FFS they used T-72M ammo from 1971-1973. Of course they lost they built a huge army but none of it was quality or up to date (except Iraqi su-24's which fled to iran). Saddam spend so much cash on lavish Palaces etc... while neglecting his army.

[miles teg 1]

I agree.... Saddam and Sons were living in a fantasy world. Even seeing interviews with some of his ex-generals, it seems that they also were living part of that fantasy world with only a few willing to admit to their failures at some of the most basic of command functions (like ordering a freak'n bridge to be detonated before American sappers and SF disarmed the explosives). Its just sad seing the potential that Iraq had under Saddam. Compare him to Khadaffi of Libya for example. Same type of regime (kinda) but with Wacki Khaddafi investing massive amounts of money into national infrastructure and now courting the West for investment and opening up to weapons inspections. Why? Cuz he's pragmatic and sees what works and what doesn't. He's flamboyant and still very anti-American... but he knows how to talk the talk and get the $$ flowing. I'm glad his son that will succeed him is less crazy and actually really freak'n smart (not to mention a fairly decent football (soccer) player).

But back to the addon.... if anyone knows of anyone who would like to help develop this Syrian pack please let me know. We need addon makers, mission makers, and texture artists. Also anyone who speaks Arabic and wants to do research on specific units or who wants to record voices for these Syrains are welcome to help out.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[wld427 1705]

i guess if you consider sending your MiG-23s and missile boats at a US fleet sane.......

[miles teg 1]

Yeah thats why I call him "Wacky Khadaffi". After the last Iraq invasion he saw the writing on the wall and changed his tune as he knew he was next on the hit list. But seriously when I was in Egypt talking to an intelligence officer, even he thought that Khadaffi does a hell of a job of providing for his people and building his country's infrastructure to keep it stable during tough economic periods. He's crazy and eccentric in some respects (like having female body guards which I think is awesome), but he's also brilliant in other ways even writing some fairly deep ecological essays with government sponsored Libyan companies leading the way in alternative energy research in the Middle East.

Crazy yes, stupid no. There's a difference. lol

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[cozza 24]

Yeah thats why I call him "Wacky Khadaffi".   After the last Iraq invasion he saw the writing on the wall and changed his tune as he knew he was next on the hit list.  But seriously when I was in Egypt talking to an intelligence officer, even he thought that Khadaffi does a hell of a job of providing for his people and building his country's infrastructure to keep it stable during tough economic periods.  He's crazy and eccentric in some respects (like having female body guards which I think is awesome), but he's also brilliant in other ways even writing some fairly deep ecological essays with government sponsored Libyan companies leading the way in alternative energy research in the Middle East.  

Crazy yes, stupid no.  There's a difference.   lol

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

yeah. My dad got a job offer in Libya, he said over there they are really starting to build big (His an aritect). Sooo there must be some money flowing threw that country. I would have loved to gone to libya, girlfriend orignally came from malta and I can go dere and see what shes talking about. Instead going to dubai now

[1in1class 0]

Actually the gear that was added to the Syrians in OFP was just stuff ripped from our Egyptians.  We did add some custom gear to our Syrians (kuffiyah on sniper, masks and goggles on commandos, etc...).   The rest of the gear is in fact pretty much accurate as what the Syrian Army actually uses.  The ammo harness, canteen, shovel, and sleeping/prayer mat roll, etc...   all look fairly typical of Syrian troops which is why I commented that it looked like BIS may have originally intended the SLA to infact be the Syrian Army as even their cammoflage is almost identical.  The only thing not typical is the body armor which most Syrian troops don't use.  They do however wear a similar colored vest that looks more like a photographer's vest.  Also there may be a new effort to equip more of their soldiers with body armor so this may change.   At any rate, one thing we are going to update is removing the backpacks on the commandos (that look like Western MOLLE gear) and replacing them with more typical Soviet era backpacks.  So alot of the gear that you saw in OFP we will import over to ArmA, but its not a simple cut and paste job.  Alot of the gear has to grouiped with the proper skeleton animation section otherwise you end up with the stuff handing down at their feet or doing other wierd things.  

But at any rate, backpacks will come first followed by a few other pieces of gear that may be appropriate.  I'm also looking for a good hemet net texture and then I have to figure out the best way to apply it (directly to the helmet or maybe as a semi-transparent cover).  

Aside from that I'm also trying to do more research on the Syrian army to get a better idea of actual units and the range of weaponry.  One big item used now by the Syrians is the RPG-7VR (tandem-warhead) and the massive RPG-29 Vampire (also tandem warhead).   But we need to get permission to convert those from OFP although the RPG-7VR warhead I can probably modify myself.  

We're also hoping that RHS will import their T-55 tanks for general usage by the community as that is probably the #1 most widely used tank in the world and one that I know the Syrians still use in large numbers.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Just that the Syrians units not the commandos have like the SLA ammo poutch and the little roll up bag on there backs they just look like the SLA men just diffrent skin. Just would be vary lovley to add may be an diffrent color to the ammo pouch and add an diffrent back back to them and take off that rolled up bag they got on the back of them like the SLA have. This would be vary nice iv been useing your units since OFP and the ones in the OFP had diffrent back pack to them. Your work is vary nice keep it up

[miles teg 1]

Yeah I know what you mean. We'll probably change things up a bit in the next update as we are in the process of converting some of the gear from OFP.

Our bigger problem right now is figuring out how to reduce our section count.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[1in1class 0]

Nice love the work keep it up. hope you figuring out how to reduce the section count im sure you will

[wld427 1705]

Yeah I know what you mean.  We'll probably change things up a bit in the next update as we are in the process of converting some of the gear from OFP.  

Our bigger problem right now is figuring out how to reduce our section count.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

what else are you bringing over?

[miles teg 1]

We're bringing over Hezbollah units (at least the infantry) and most recently the F-16I Sufa that Jewish Freak almost has fully converted. The Hezbollah units are a bit bulky though as we had to fit their old PASGT vest over their BIS model's body armor and the section count is high. But so far I haven't noticed a big toll on performance...but I also haven't made giant missions with them with hundreds of units like I did in OFP.

But they will be beta like anything else.

After that and the Zelda APC, we will probably concentrate on converting our Achzarit APC, Puma APC (with and without Carpet system). But we'll see. I'd really like to make a small historic pack as I've been itching to convert the Isherman pack, M3 halftrack, and T-34 that we had in OFP but never released due to lack of historic infantry. So we may try working with some other addon makers (who hopefully will allow us to modify their work) to make some more historic looking IDF units from the 60's and 70's when they used M1 steel pots and British paratrooper helmets (and also no body armor). The tough part is making the ammo harnesses (either textured or modelled). I need to get in contact with the old Invasion 1944 guys who made the British Red Devils addon to see if we can use their helmet which was perfect (with the net helmet cover) and would only need a slight change in the color. Likewise with the M1 steel pot helmets. We'll also need to do a bit of research to figure out which models and textures are best to use for the Egyptians of different historical periods (tan for 60's, but some cammo designs for some units during 70's). Helmets are the same Russian types still used today (aside from some units issued PASGT kevlar helmets today).

At any rate, a lot depends on what Jewish Freak wants to do as he really is the heart of our operation right now. I just help fix small things and work on bits of stuff here and there. Hopefully someone new will join our team to help us out in model making/editing and texturing.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>