SpaceNavigator as a game controller?Pan

[arigram 0]

It might not be possible with ArmA at the moment but maybe 3Dconnexion and BI could work to add support in the future?

ArmA has included support for TrackIR, a first in the FPS genre and a valuable device it has been.

For an introduction to the SpaceNavigator, head over to the company site:

http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/3a1d.php

SpaceNavigator is the smallest version of the 3d controlling device and while affordable, an incredibly usefull tool for any computer graphics artist.

Imagine the possibillities of controlling your character, not with a digital keyboard but with an analog, press-sensitive, 3D device.

You use a very small amount of force to move it around and being pressure sensitive it means that an action can be performed differently. Its also quite comfortable and requires for example no effort to retain the forward tilt by just resting your hand at the position. So, if you bind the tilt to character movement there is no effort to keep going in any direction and depending on how far you tilt the device you can control the speed of the movement fluidly but also very quickly.

I don't have to mention how much more intuitive and comfortable it is over the keyboard and you have more of the feeling of controlling a puppet than pushing the buttons of a robot.

Some example motions would be:

- Character

Tilt/Roll: Movement. Control speed by amount of tilt.

Spin: Head tilt.

Pan Up/Down: Jump/Climb Up/Get Up. Get Down/Climb Down. Push down more to go from standing to prone and vice versa.

Buttons: Reload, Mode

- Aircraft

Tilt/Roll: Control of the nose.

Spin: Rudder.

Pan Up/Down: Thrust.

Buttons: Mode, Countermeasures

- Vehicles

Roll or Spin: Steering wheel

Push Up/Down or Titlt Back/Front: Gas/Brake

Buttons: Horn

- Turrets

Roll or Spin: Turret Left/Right

Tilt Front/Back: Turret Up/Down

Buttons: Mode, Fire

What do you think?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]What do you think?

Not suitable for gaming as the hand tires pretty fast.

[jerryhopper 286]

its too small, i'd get cramps from holding it

can u imagine holding this for 3 hours?

[arigram 0]

Its not tiring at all.

I have and use it and the hand rests on top of it in a relaxed state. All movements are done without any force and they are suprisingly slight and gentle.

[baddo 0]

Quote[/b] ]What do you think?

Not suitable for gaming as the hand tires pretty fast.

Do you have experience with these devices?

I know for sure that using only a keyboard + mouse is a lot more stressfull for my hands than using a 3D navigation device, when used with 3D-modelling applications. I don't see why this would change when used in a game. It is an ideal device for controlling a 3D world, I already suggested some time ago that BIS could integrate support for these devices into their own 3D modelling program, and this could work well in the world editor program too. The 3dconnexion Software Development Kit is free.

I think the 3D nav. device which is small in size is not as good as one of bigger size, key thing is it should support your hand so that you don't have to use your fingertips to control the device. So my recommendation is to not buy the smallest one of the devices, but a bigger one.

[arigram 0]

You don't have to use the fingers.

You can rest the palm on top of the device and control it with extremely subtle arm or wrist motions.

Granted, only one button is accessible this way.

I've only had it for a week and now I can't work without it.

Same with all other devices, it takes a bit to get used to it and might tire you after prolonged use.

The first time I played an FPS with the AWSD keys it was quite difficult to get the hung of it and quite tiring. Prolonged mouse use is also bad for the wrist and fingers.

The SpaceNavigator is by far more comfortable than a keyboard and even the mouse.

The larger devices which include more buttons and even a screen are definately more tasty but also much more expensive.

As a game controller, SpaceNavigator is as expensive as a good gaming mouse.

I can't see how difficult it would be to implement it, with the free SDK of 3dconnexion and all.

[menos 0]

I design automotive parts and tools for a living and there are hot times when customers are really eager i do work for 10 to 14 hours/ to get the job done without the most lovely device I had on one of my old workstations I used: A spacemouse - in concept quite similar to the device you show us.

Once you get used to it you do not longer touch the keyboard - the mouse controls the functions (in ArmA would be the aiming) and the spacemouse controls the movement of the CAD part one moves on the screens (in ArmA you could map the movement to it).

The spacemouse has one further very impressive feature, which could improve ArmA in such an revolutionary way, as TrackIR:

The space mouse is an analog device with a very high precision without any jerkyness. Imagine a fluid movement of the character from slowly walking to a faster move, to running and even sprinting with this analog device without any dumb digital additional buttons for slow, fast, and sprint.

Even the vertical movement could be done, as the spacemouse is really an device with full freedom, similar to trackIR.

The real difference between the mediocre keyboard and an analog movement device is as similar as the evolution from an didital controlpad to an modern 900° FFB wheel for racing sims.

[Jackal326 1179]

its too small, i'd get cramps from holding it

[...]

can u imagine holding this for 3 hours?

The jokes just write themselves [/penis_joke]

On topic though, I think if we go into the realms of supporting one peripheral after another, BI will be coding forever to allow each one to function, leaving little or no time for the patching of game-bugs and such. As much as I am for the support of 3rd party controllers etc. and owning a TrackIR rig I appreciate its implementation into ArmA, a line must be drawn.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you have experience with these devices?

Yes, a friend of mine is making 3D animations for automotive companies and while BMW introduced the i-drive he got a set of Space-Navigators and I borrowed one to see if I could use it for my PC. While I liked it for gfx applications I can´t see how it should be a usefull game-controller. For me the device is to small to use it without permanent pain in the hand. There is a difference for me between a gaming device and a working device. So while the Space-navigator is cool for 3D apps that make use of the extended features I can hardly see the space-navigator turned into a class A gaming device.

[baddo 0]

Balschoiw I recommend you try a different model. The SpaceNavigator is small in size and I prefer a bigger one. I think a device which fits better into the size of my hand is much better, so that it gives good rest to my hand.

For example an older Cyberpuck is more ergonomic in my opinion:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpuck

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/4297

I think a 3D nav. device has good potential in being used in games, I would (probably) love it if I had that kind of controller for game characters. With that kind of analog accuracy and ergonomics there is a whole lot of potential to improve from the traditional keyboard + mouse. It is really the ergonomics that I appreciate the most about in the 3D navigation devices. For example controlling a helicopter in ArmA could be very convenient with a 3D nav. device. You would then have everything needed to manouver the helicopter in one very ergonomic device.

Best Regards,

Baddo.

[shinRaiden 0]

6DOF controllers like these work very well in their intended purpose, as a secondary controller for camera or viewport control. What they are inefficient or impractical at is in primary manipulative control.

If you look at the usage of those devices, and comparable controllers in use over the past 20 years, you'll find they have a consistent 'two-fisted' usage approach. For right-handed users, the right hand will control the mouse, using the normal mouse functionality for selection and two-dimensional manipulation.

The left hand controls the auxiliary controller, which is used for 3D viewport re-orientation, or one dimensional manipulation of locked selections.

To replace the primary controller, you end up having to implement a solution comparable to the wii controller, where you have a two dimensional controller in 3D space with orientation attributes.

Finally, the 3DConnexion series are not DirectInput devices, and would need a kludgey software wrapper to interface, unless BIS were to add full support via the developer SDK. At that point then you get another practicality question.

I've got a Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS, I ought to get a set of pedals, I want to get a Thomas SuperWheel steering wheel, and the large numbers of customers who've expressed frustration over the 'simple' WASD+Mouse controls means I'm going to go get me a Xbox 360 controller Monday for testing. I also happen to have a 3DConnexion Space Pilot as well. That's 5 USB input devices, because I'm still an old PS2 crank with my keyboard and mouse. Add to that a USB security dongle, USB printer, external DVD burner, and a couple of USB hard drives, it gets to be a real spaghetti mess.

Having ArmA support multiple directInput devices is imho a much more useful and higher priority than the limited application of adding native support for this device, based on the target market. Secondly, as 3DConnexion does not make their device a native DirectInput controller, that means every other game that the user has will have to be kludged via key maps as well. Even if they made it a DX device, a lot of games don't have the controls oriented in such a way as to readily adapt to this kind of controller. Their controls are designed for 1D or 2D input, not 3D.

[Striezel 10]

A little update on this topic if anyone cares.

Another Thread also deals with the SpaceNavigator:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=82808

Apparently Arma II now recognizes the SpaceNavigator as an input device. Although its not working properly.

Alternatively the so called RBC9 driver is able to convert the SN into a Joystick, which can be assigned to in Arma. But as I remember from my tests, it didn't react properly too.