Cobra Vs. UH60 -- Controls.

[Radic 0]

Hmm - that's definitely very odd! - all sitirring and bluster aside, what I've described is really what I get - which is no terrain following tendency at all - I've been experimenting/testing this quite a bit last night and this afternoon. The only anomoly I have is the altitude setting tendency of the collective (then in forward flight I get variation below and back up to that - ie. back in a hover - according to what I do with the cyclic - and as I've indicated this behaviour is exactly what I've experienced IRL)

There's no way you guys are getting a situation where Auto-hover is being enabled by default??

KillALF on the previous page reckons he's seeing the same as me too.

[whisper 0]

Negative for auto-hover

But must be confirmed if it is not a mouse-only behavior, because the control used in OFP changes your chopper behavior (for example, couldn't have a auto-hover working nicely when using joystick)

[max power 21]

Radic: Well established behaviour meaning everyone that I've ever heard of talking about the helicopter behaviour in OFP says the same thing but you. Are you talking about OFP: Elite by any chance? I'm not attacking you, I'm debunking your arguments. Please try to understand that either you are not observing the behaviour of the program correctly or your program is different than everyone else's. I am being no stronger in my conviction that what I have observed in ofp's behaviour than you are, but you are the only one (that I have heard) describing it the way you are. Short of a mass hallucination on our part, something is wrong/different with your version.

When I said authority I don't mean anything professional. I meant it in a testimonial sense...

[Radic 0]

Plaintiff1 - no worries, I get where you're comming from (I've been a bit cheeky - I'm not actually upset).... but all nonsense aside, as I've indicated to whisper, I'm honestly seeing what I describe! - ie. no terrain following tendency at all - and the general behaviour of the helicopter flight model very closely matches my personal real life experience in the Squirrel - that's what really grabbed me about OFP - when I first fired up a chopper and got it in the air I nearly fell out of my chair because it behaved and "felt" like flying that Squirrel felt - so I make no bones about the fact that from that moment to me the OFP helicopter flight experience has been "IT" for me

In fact I also just tried enabling auto hover and I still get no terrain following - only difference is that the chopper flares itself to zero forward speed very actively - and I think drives the collective itself to hold altitude - will have to check that last as I wasn't specifically looking for that aspect.  

I'm talking PC OFP here - definitely not Elite.

It's all very strange - tho as I said: KillALF has also indicated he gets the same behaviour I'm seeing - to be frank, if you other guys are seeing what you're seeing then I can fully understand why you debunk and deride OFP so much - but that's just not what I'm experiencing - my experience is - based on all my technical and personal knowledge/experience - is a simulation of really very high fidelity helicopter flight dynamics - which leaves me really scratching my head.

All very curious to say the least......

As a matter of interest I've just discovered I'm definitely wrong about one thing - I just very closely tested out my collective behaviour in OFP and it doesn't just set a height as I've been claiming -it in fact behaves pretty much as it should  - ie. it sets the amount of lift being generated according to where it's set - ie. from sitting on ground, if I raise it slowly to where the helo JUST starts to lift off slowly and leave it there, then the ship will then continue to climb at that slow steady rate to max altitude - and if I increase the collective then it'll just climb quicker (I'm having to gently correct with cyclic to keep speed within 1-2 knots plus or minus from zero of course) - and vice versa.

[killaalf 0]

Radic:  Well established behaviour meaning everyone that I've ever heard of talking about the helicopter behaviour in OFP says the same thing but you.  Are you talking about OFP: Elite by any chance?  I'm not attacking you, I'm debunking your arguments.  Please try to understand that either you are not observing the behaviour of the program correctly or your program is different than everyone else's.  I am being no stronger in my conviction that what I have observed in ofp's behaviour than you are, but you are the only one (that I have heard) describing it the way you are.  Short of a mass hallucination on our part, something is wrong/different with your version.

When I said authority I don't mean anything professional.  I meant it in a testimonial sense...

Well, I'm nobody then, I guess. I repeat, my Operation Flashpoint does not exhibit this "established behaviour" and I've tried it just yesterday, with O:FP 1.96 + FFUR/SLX

Even when I was just limping towards some hill, my nose bumped (not crashed, I was that slow) into it while the fuselage showed absolutely no tendency to rise above the obstacle if I left the collective untouched.

Could you please tell me if you are using mouse/keyboard or a joystick?

[Baff1 0]

Using my joystick, helicopters hug the terrain in my version of OFP. (1.96)

That is to say if I am flying "hands free" at a steady 50 metres altitude, when I pass over a hill my helicopter maintains that 50 metre altitude without my input.

An effective rise from sea level of 50m.

Occasionally if I fly at a cliff too fast, this automation fails and I crash into it. For gentle slopes it is 100% reliable in my experience.

I dont have to micromange my altitude when flying over uneven terrain in OFP, it stays stable relative to the ground beneath me.

This isn't a feature of the flight model that either pleases or offends me. I too would like to see an option of the OFP helicopter model.

I am not enjoying the ArmA controls at all.

I can't face launching the game just to struggle with them again.

[max power 21]

Well, I'm nobody then, I guess. I repeat, my Operation Flashpoint does not exhibit this "established behaviour" and I've tried it just yesterday, with O:FP 1.96 + FFUR/SLX

Even when I was just limping towards some hill, my nose bumped (not crashed, I was that slow) into it while the fuselage showed absolutely no tendency to rise above the obstacle if I left the collective untouched.

Could you please tell me if you are using mouse/keyboard or a joystick?

Both. Depends on what I feel like. Try without the mods. I think I read that Radic uses mods too.

edit: Try this also, judge the maxium height above the terrain you can fly at near sea level.. now go up a cliff and see what the maximum is. If the alt reads the same you're being influenced by the ground (IIRC, the alt in OFP reads above the ground rather than above S/L or a calibrated height).

[Radic 0]

In my OFP helos the altitude readout is behaving as a "radar altimiter" - ie. it reads height in meters from the belly of my helo to the ground beneath - that's why I guage "straight and level" as being a specific airspeed with the collective left untouched - ie. using slight adjustments of cyclic to maintain that airspeed will be resulting in level flight (checked this very early in the piece over definitely level "terrain" - ie. the ocean) - as is the behaviour of the real thing.

If I fly "straight and level" over rising terrain then the HUD altitude readout will decrease - and if I fly out over a scarp or cliff it will increase very rapidly as the ground falls away - but the helo itself is still straight and level.

Also, something else I get in my OFP is if I start from decent altitude (a must for this) and then bottom out the collective completely then not only does the helo fall out of the sky, but my cyclic has very little effect any more - it has some, but it's very little and very mushy - worse the more nose down I start from - as is the descent rate - tomorrow I'm going to experiment by shutting the engine down and attempting to autorotate (or as near as I can manage from my theoretical understanding of how it's supposed to work).

OK, so I'm flirting with divorce and tried it just now instead of joining the family for tea - and it doesn't work - ie. when the engine is shut down the rotor quite quickly slows to a halt and I'm in freefall - even starting from forward speed of 150kts and cyclic shoved fully forward just before the engine is chopped. Oh well, you can't have everything I guess.

[killaalf 0]

Both.  Depends on what I feel like.  Try without the mods.  I think I read that Radic uses mods too.  

edit: Try this also, judge the maxium height above the terrain you can fly at near sea level.. now go up a cliff and see what the maximum is.  If the alt reads the same you're being influenced by the ground (IIRC, the alt in OFP reads above the ground rather than above S/L or a calibrated height).

I just tried without mods, versions 1.46 and 1.96. Played "ground attack" and after destroying the convoy I approached a hill/mountain just a bit southwest of the carnage. Speed was around 20 (is that knots or kmh btw? I'm betting on kmh as the altimeter seems to be metric, too), the height would gradually decrease until my nose touched the hillside and the chopper settled down. Surely that was not too fast to prevent that terrain following to kick in, now was it?

[max power 21]

Nope. It seems that your OFP is different also. Is it GOTY edition?

[mikupoiss 0]

I made 2 small clips of the flying. UH60 and Cobra.

You can clearly see that, sometimes I take longer turns with cobra. That's because i crashed it some 5 or 6 times trying to take turns like UH60.

LittleBird must be the best. Trying to make that stunt vid with that.

UH60:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5o9f7r2kkU

Cobra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WDlEF0Rvzc

[max power 21]

Ugh. The way the Uh60 rotates around the centre of the screen makes me want to hurt someone.

Nice videos. You can definitely see that the cobra has much greater accelleration! That could go a long way to make it more difficult to fly for some people.

[wamingo 1]

Made a little video showing oh-58 following terrain in ofp... cos I'm well bored and never tried youtube.. and maybe it would help some understand better.. or confuse more. all the same.

Anyway here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C_S7nBPjWM

Once I reached ~120km/h I leveled up a little and I did not touch any controls at all after that. It just flies itself.

1.96, no unofficial addons.

Basicly what you will see in this vid is (if you can read the alt meter), if you're flying at 80m above ground and the ground is 20m above sea level (you're at 100m above sea level) and then proceed to a terrain that is 50m above sea level then you'll end up 50+80m (130m) above sea level once the helo has "stabilized" altitude. This is WITHOUT touching anything. If you fly fast and/or over flat terrain then this will seem less evident as it's like on a pretty slack spring, but it will eventually end up at the same altitude as you started if you slow down. However if the hill is very steep, the virtual spring may not touch it, and then you may have to power up to fly over it and power down near the exit so that you don't end up too high...

Sorry I don't know much flight lingo, please don't kill me.

Again though, it's possible this is only true for keyboard & mouse. I'd appreciate if this was confirmed by someone, anyone.

[max power 21]

Excellent video! Note that you can hear the engine reacting to the changing terrain!

[mikupoiss 0]

The way the Uh60 rotates around the centre of the screen makes me want to hurt someone.

Sorry, dude. I have just begun taking a deeper look into the movie making in ArmA. Never tried it with OpF btw

[max power 21]

No no. It's a flaw with the flight model, not with your video. Your video was excellent.

[killaalf 0]

I'm truly baffled by wamingo's video - all I can tell is that my Flashpoint (it's not the GOTY edition, btw) behaves quite differently and if I would have flown that, the heli would've crashed at least 3-4 times if I left the collective alone. Then again, maybe this terrain following only kicks in at a certain height? It's a rare occasion that I climb above 30-40 meters, in general I'm about a couple of meters over the treetops max. Ok it's not that, tried flying higher and no change - when I approach a rise, my height over ground diminishes and once I'm over the hill, it rises again according to the ground under the heli, but all in all I'm staying at the same height above sealevel the whole time.

Having flown around a bit in Flashpoint again, I wish that BIS would give me my responsive collective back, push it away from me and I start to drop immediately and vice versa, sigh.

[max power 21]

At least we know what we're talking about now!

[Radic 0]

Just got home from work:  I second everyhting KillaALF has said - he and I are experiencing the same type of flight model - which for some bizzar reason seems to differ from you other guys.  And I agree Plaintiff1 - now our differing viewpoints make sense - if my OFP flew with that terrain following guff I wouldn't be very impressed either.

My OFP: RES is GOTY edition and I generally play it with ECP - but this is the way it's always flown - ie. even before I got into adding mods.

EDIT:  WHOA!!!! just actually watched that youtube video and like KillaALF has said - that's absolutely NOTHING like my helos behave!!!!

[wamingo 1]

So... Have people have been playing ofp all this time with totally different flight models without knowing it... ? I would love for some BIS response on this now.

[Radic 0]

OK, - I've just managed to duplicate the "terrain following" behaviour from the video....

In my OFP, in the "Controls" section of the config, my thrust option is mapped to: "stick slider 1, stick z-axis" - and except for starting up the engine and rotor I ONLY use my joystick throttle slider/lever for collective - ie. I'll hop into the chopper as pilot, tap my Left Shift key ONCE to get the rotor powering up and then once she's spinning at full rpm I lift off and fly using the joystick throttle slider/lever.

A few minutes ago I tried something different - I used repeated tapping on the Left Shift to get airborn and then set it up in forward flight at about 20m height (all this time the joystick throttle slider/lever is in the collective "bottomed" position - untouched) - and the helicopter followed the terrain exactly as shown in that video etc.

So the difference appears to be in the way controls are mapped and/or used.

[killaalf 0]

So the difference appears to be in the way controls are mapped and/or used.

That's it then, as I was always using a HOTAS for flying in O:FP, I never used the keyboard at all - I even have the action menu mapped to one of the hats of the stick.

Based on these findings, maybe plaintiff1 would like to reevaluate his opinion of the flight model in O:FP. That said, I still like the flight model in ArmA better, with the exception of the "slower" collective and the (imo) overdone banking/pitching induced by rudder input (especially in the Cobra).

[Radic 0]

Actually, I do in fact think the ArmA helicopter flight model is very similar to OFP - with the roll/yaw coupling sorted and more progressive yaw control loss with speed plus sharper collective and a bit of a reduction in the cyclic lag, ArmA would be pretty much identical to OFP.

And even the cyclic lag isn't necessarily a bad thing as even I'm finding that the "developed feel" or "skill" requirement generated by the cyclic response "lag" in ArmA grows on me - I certainly don't have a problem with it in the UH60 but IMO it's just too much in the MI17 - I realise the MI17 may just be a total pig to fly IRL, but it's excessive to the point of crossing the line from challenging to just downright frustrating.

So another way to put it is that if they ported the flight model over from OFP and intoduced a bit of cyclic lag - ie. to the degree exhibited by the UH60 in the demo - then I'd be happy.

[Baff1 0]

As previously noted I use a joystick on OFP. I still get the ground tracking.

I use one of those Hotas jobbies with the throttle control too.

I have the torque on my throttle quite high so I don't constantly adjust it. Just find a balance and go with it.

My suspicion is that you haven't noticed it because you have always manually compensated for it anyway. You saw a hill so you instinctively pulled up and always have done.

No offense but I really don't buy that the controls were different for you.

I've given the ArmA heli's another go also. It gets easier, but I still don't have the same kind of control I has with OFP.

The rudder controls just make flight epileptic.

I can't just find a good sniper spot and hover in the distance and let my gunner do his thing or viff up above the tree line.

My zero flight speed manouvres are borked.

[Radic 0]

No, I definitely don't have terrain following when I use the Joystick throttle for collective - the flight model acts identically to ArmA in that respect in fact - but if it use the Left Shift for increase thrust then I DO get the terrain following!!

Why this is the case I don't know but rest assured, KillaALF and myselft are NOT deluding ourselves - you guys who get the terrain following all the time have really been done out of great flying simply due to some odd control config quirk in OFP- because in real terms it's pretty much identical to ArmA except without the yaw bug.

I've just been back in ArmA demo but flying the UH60 (which I haven't actually done much of - I've concentrated on mastering the harder MI17) - and it really behaves pretty much the same as my OFP flight model except for the porked yaw control (which is just completely off the planet), slightly sluggish collective response - or more precisely: aircraft response to the collective - not a biggie tho - and somewhat less stability at low speed - ie. sluggish aircraft response to cyclic by comparison. The latter I'm willing to put up with as it does sort of take a bit of skill development - but the tail rotor system needs to be sorted!

The MI17..... as I said, that thing is just a plain pig to fly.