Model polycounts

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Ideally object should only use one big texture for external textures (+ normal + specular maps), state changes are pretty expensive operations.

Again, ideally speaking, how large do you think this texture should be?

2048 x 2048, which is a harware limitation caused by ATI.

Im not sure that’s true if it is then i have a magic gfx card.

I’m using an ATI 800GTO2 256Mb card. I was testing a port of our Harrier the other day and got it in ArmA easily and that used a 4096x4096 texture and the game didn’t crash! Although that was a noticeable pause when it went to draw it for the first time!

And before anyone comments on the ludicrous file size – I forgot to shrink it down in PS before saving it.

[dm 9]

Im not sure that’s true if it is then i have a magic gfx card.

I’m using an ATI 800GTO2 256Mb card. I was testing a port of our Harrier the other day and got it in ArmA easily and that used a 4096x4096 texture and the game didn’t crash! Although that was a noticeable pause when it went to draw it for the first time!

And before anyone comments on the ludicrous file size – I forgot to shrink it down in PS before saving it.

Its not that it'll crash, but I believe the pause is caused by the software re-sizing the larger texture down to 2048. I can't find my source again (the re-design of the ATI site has broken a few links) but the ATI cards are most definitely only capable of dealing with 2048, some sort of buffer limit iirc.

[xnodunitx 0]

From what I'v heard,thats how it works. Although its not really the best guess,I'm runnin an ATI 9600 pro and half of the apache with its weapons were sharp and smooth faces..this would mean 10k-12k in vertex [points] if two vertexes really account for one sharp face. And the dutchman would be 16k or so. hard to say but those are rough estimates..and wouldn't making a large texture and then shrinking it down kind of ruin the way things are displayed and aligned or do you use the photoshop tutorial on shrinking and resizing images without losing quality? [which I can no longer find.............]

[Dwarden 1125]

Rocko Your card hw way is unable handle more than 2048x2048 texture , only ATI X1xxx serie is able handle 4096x4096 textures ...

anyway IMHO 2048x2048 is enough to get detailed visuals...

[feersum.endjinn 6]

You should not use larger than 2048x2048, bigger textures may be supported by hardware but they aren't really needed and performance won't be good.

Single 4096x4096 texture will require 64 to 128 megabytes of memory (including mipmaps), depending on compression used so on average 256MB card you would be able to use only couple of these textures (frame buffers eat some memory as well) and situation isn't much better on 512MB cards.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

Dwarden thats true, I think that 4096x4096 are quite useless and take to long to load.

I'm just thinking of 2048x1024 tga files which are 8mbs big.

and if 2048x2048 isn't enought for a model...then either you do something wrong or you need a second file

ah and rockape, really looking forward to see your stuff in arma

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Rocko Your card hw way is unable handle more than 2048x2048 texture , only ATI X1xxx serie is able handle 4096x4096 textures ...

anyway IMHO 2048x2048 is enough to get detailed visuals...

Dwarde,  So if it is a hardware limitation how is the 4096x4096 tile being managed?  Is it as DM suggests resized?  Or is it handled differently by the GPU splitting the tile?

Im curious because some others in our little cabal have tested on the X8XX cards to and there doesnt seem to be a problem for them either?

ah and rockape, really looking forward to see your stuff in arma  

Thanks but it may be a while before any RKSL stuff gets publically released.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

ah and rockape, really looking forward to see your stuff in arma

Thanks but it may be a while before any RKSL stuff gets publically released.

I could be beta-tester, atleast for me I won't have to wait for so long then

no serious, if you need some serious tester, pm me or write me in msn. but I think you already have enough beta testers.

anyway, looking forward to your projects

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

ah and rockape, really looking forward to see your stuff in arma  

Thanks but it may be a while before any RKSL stuff gets publically released.

I could be beta-tester, atleast for me I won't have to wait for so long then

no serious, if you need some serious tester, pm me or write me in msn. but I think you already have enough beta testers.

anyway, looking forward to your projects

Its not a testing issue - its purely time constraints and some of the plans we have are going to take some time to develop and execute.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

ah and rockape, really looking forward to see your stuff in arma

Thanks but it may be a while before any RKSL stuff gets publically released.

I could be beta-tester, atleast for me I won't have to wait for so long then

no serious, if you need some serious tester, pm me or write me in msn. but I think you already have enough beta testers.

anyway, looking forward to your projects

Its not a testing issue - its purely time constraints and some of the plans we have are going to take some time to develop and execute.

that was kinda invisibly included in my post because it was in my mind

[ohara 0]

There is limit for vertices, we use 16bit wertex buffer in game (15 i fact,1 bit is reserved) so max number of vertices is 2^15 = 32768, if you want bigger model, use proxy and build model from proxy by separate submodels. Dont foregot that point in O2 is not vertex, it depend on maping and edges, if you use sharp edges or multiple maps, you will have more vertices. There is no big dependency on polycount if you use corectly LODs, much more important are sections. Parts of model that GC must draw separately (number of diferent materials, textures, bone selections or alphatransparent/nontransparent parts of model). More section mean wors performance, its better to have less sections in more distant LODs.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

that was kinda invisibly included in my post because it was in my mind  

We're in danger of taking over this thread...  

The point i was trying make was that there is going to be very little to test for a long time.  Apart from some dev work between UNN and myself there isnt going to be much in game for quite a while.

Now Dwarde or anyone else care to answer my earlier question?  How is my lowly X800 series card handling a 4096x4096 tile?  

I know its not really a pressing question but i am curious!

There is limit for vertices, we use 16bit wertex buffer in game (15 i fact,1 bit is reserved) so max number of vertices is 2^15 = 32768, if you want bigger model, use proxy and build model from proxy by separate submodels.

Ok so say i want to build an aircraft carrier, 283m x60m x 30m. I should use proxies? and those proxies will all have the same properties as the model they are built on? ie geo lod and roadway support?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

oops - double post

[ohara 0]

You can make just res lods from proxy and special lod dont need so many vertices, so they can be in main model without proxy.

4096*4096 is not supported because some HW does know to operate with it. Max supported texture resolution is 2048*2048.

[feersum.endjinn 6]

Is there still maximum size limit for objects, I remember you couldn't have objects bigger than 128x128x128 meters in OFP. For example Kegetys' Kutnetsov carrier (never released) was built from 3 separate objects because of that limitation.

[ohara 0]

This is still there and limit is 50*50m, its because by this segments is landscape streamed and also this is used for scene pruning. Colision detection will not work with bigger objects also. So bigger objects must be made from subparts.

[Messiah 2]

thanks for the information ohara, its very much appreciated.

With regards to the use of proxies, does this go further with respect to using it in the primary view LODS, for items such as mounted weapons, or are these still modeled together with the vehicle?

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

thanks ohara for answering questions here

another question:

is it better to make a model in segments (like 3 parts "glued" together in the ingame editor) or to have proxy models "glued" together via config?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Is there still maximum size limit for objects, I remember you couldn't have objects bigger than 128x128x128 meters in OFP. For example Kegetys' Kutnetsov carrier (never released) was built from 3 separate objects because of that limitation.

It was 64x64x64 but practial terms was 60m.

So is there an 'official'/hard coded way to get segments to allign or is it still dependant on placment scripts?

[feersum.endjinn 6]

So is there an 'official'/hard coded way to get segments to allign or is it still dependant on placment scripts?

No easy way there that I know, it's still dependant on init handler and createVehicle magic.

With vectorDir/vectorUp and getVectorDir/getVectorUp scripting commands aligning multiple objects should be a bit easier though.

[ohara 0]

Proxy could be used for diferent purpose. Normaly for example as socket (if you want to have mounted diferent changable guns/missiles, flafs and so on, on some character or vehicle). Sometimes it could be used as method how to make more polycount heavy model with 16 vertex buffer. Dont foregot that proxy mean more setinos and also could cause problem with alphasorting, if subparts including some alpha faces.

If you want to make bigger object in size meaning, you must do it in game editor or by some placing sript, becouse you need to have it for engine as separate objects (to prevent colision and ocluding problems). If you will do it together by proxy in o2, for engine it will be still one object.

[ohara 0]

There is some model properties that will automaticaly put object to ground ( fences for example)-some few diferent methods, also there are now properties that alow automaticaly conecting of some models in new Visitor.

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

ok thanks

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Proxy could be used for diferent purpose. Normaly for example as socket (if you want to have mounted diferent changable guns/missiles, flafs and so on, on some character or vehicle).

If i understand this correctly then does that mean its possible to support multiple missiles on aircraft? ie mixed loadouts? or do you mean its easier to swap a single type of weapon from a vehicle base?

So if i had a landrover witha 'socket' i could use the same base model and redefine the proxy to give a M2/M240/AGS-30 gun mount without having to create 3 separate models?

[ohara 0]

Yes, proxyes are primary for these purpose