A burning question

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]the last thing they would do would be to open up on a crowd or rioting civilians

To be honest, I probably would! Hitting one or two would have made the crowd back up!  However I ask myself the question why wasnt option 2 used, escape? What was wrong with the driver? He tries to get out of the crowd driving backward but somehow fails.

This is why I love the old Fuchs tank. It cannot get stuck in narrow roads or crowds because it has a front driver and a back driver, Even if the fuchs was never constructed for such a scenario I believe it would have gotten out of this trap. Personally, I would have raced through the crowd.

[]http://images.google.de/url?q=http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/Luchs/Luchs.jpg[/img]

Killing how many and causing a huge political stink - kinda like this one?

I dont honestly know why or how the Warrior was disabled but to mow people down or fire into the crowd wouldnt be something any one with an gram of morals would do.  I know i wouldnt want to do it and im sure if you were actually in that situation you wouldnt either.

This is not a civilised crowd demonstrating or throwing rocks and bottles. They brought along Molotovs so I may assume they had homicidal intentions. My point was not to erase the entire bulk of demonstrators but to make the crowd back up by opening fire at one or two agressors. Being rather inexperienced I may of course be wrong, however I do believe the crew stayed too passive!

What morals do you speak about? If I would be a gunner I would judge Molotovs as a serious attack and I would take me right to defend myself!

[Pathy 0]

Cheers!    

I'm in uni flats with 20 female nurses (in training) and 3 other guys, we're all going out tomorrow night, looking well forward to it    

They apparently fired into the air, but not into the crowd.

[EiZei 0]

This is not a civilised crowd demonstrating or throwing rocks and bottles. They brought along Molotovs so I may assume they had homocidal intentions.

How did they know the crew were a bunch of butt pirates?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

-edit- (deleted in order to keep this thread serious)

[Pathy 0]

This is not a civilised crowd demonstrating or throwing rocks and bottles. They brought along Molotovs so I may assume they had homocidal intentions.

How did they know the crew were a bunch of butt pirates?

what are butt pirates!  

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Homocidal, not Homosexual!!!

Eizei is a funny funny guy. Topic needed lightening up.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Okay got it!    Bunch of smart azzes!  

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Cheers!    

I'm in uni flats with 20 female nurses (in training) and 3 other guys, we're all going out tomorrow night, looking well forward to it    

They apparently fired into the air, but not into the crowd.

I feel the need for medical attention!  Student Nurses are a worthy cuase to support...  

@Albert

Quote[/b] ]What morals do you speak about? If I would be a gunner I would judge Molotovs as a serious attack and I would take me right to defend myself!

Yeah but the press and the majority of the public see a 'tank' (IFV for the military minded) vs a guy in a check shirt with a milk bottle. The average person watching on TV might see it as a bit one sided battle.

[Pathy 0]

Well yeah, lets also keep in mind if we had seen a warrior opening up on the crowd, we wouldnt have probably then seen the crew bailing, as the crowd would have run instead of pelting the warrior, so we couldnt even have pointed towards the burning crew and used that as the basis for justification.

Media would have a field day, however unfair that might be on British Troops.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah but the press and the majority of the public see a 'tank' (IFV for the military minded) vs a guy in a check shirt with a milk bottle.  The average person watching on TV might see it as a bit one sided battle.

Well I agree, and my intentions certainly wasnt to pretend to be a cold blooded pragmatist. But I think you are asking for too much if you expect a soldier in this situation to be politically correct. Well they were and I have great respect for that, but I also think the crew would have had its own personal right to defend its life!

I see a mob gathering around a isolated tank, throwing molotovs and trying to squeeze the crew out of their shelter. We all know the pictures of the american soldier, burned and deformed, hanging from the bridge. And those pictures would come to my mind if I would be stuck in that tank. Also, where is the back up? The tank is isolated, trapped and exposed to a dangerous threat. In that instant of a moment I would forget about the political correct behaviour and try to save my life.

But you are right, the western media is always quick to judge, and the Al Quaida propaganda quick to abuse it to stir up emotions!

But a soldier in such a situation cant take so much responibility!

[Murmur2k 0]

No doubt video clips of the IFV will make it to the Al Quaida propaganda videos about Iraqi insurgents fighting against the west.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

But a soldier in such a situation cant take so much responibility!

I know it’s unfair to expect all this and more from a soldier on the spot but this is really what its about now. Being seen to do the right thing by people that will second guess you after the fact.

The fact that the media from different factions all with different agendas will jump on the slightest incident and spin it out to be bigger than it ever was is now everyday fact. Just like this incident. Soldier are no longer just briefed on military ops they are briefed on the politics of the job as well - their orders aren’t just military objectives but political ones as well, especially in a situation are dangerous as Iraq.

Lets face it that’s what most of this thread has turned into. A debate about whether the soldiers should have done something else rather than what happened.

Maybe they shouldn’t have got stuck? Maybe they should have fired on the crowd; perhaps other units should have moved into support them. I think they dealt with it the best way they could at the time.

We're only second guessing people who really do have to make these decisions in an instant.

Edits for typos - some days my fingers just dont do what they are told.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]In your subsequent edits of your post you are posting news reports from several different incidents. Stop trying to hide your mistake. Yes people are getting killed but the incident that you originally claimed British troops killed civilians is not one of them.

What the feck do I need to hide ?!?

This is definately getting over my head now.

If you want to blame anyone for any mistake, why don´t you blame AP and the BBC ?!?

You seem to be pretty sure to know everything at a point where we all indeed only know very little about the whole incident. But you are quick to blame me for what again ?

Sorry, but that´s just plain stupid.

We had a discussion, I took my time to express the views on ROE´s. You didn´t even feel it was necessary to reply to the indepth look on ROE´s but pull out the " I will end this discussion" - card just to bail out and then go on with your rampant bullshit ?

Can´t you keep it with the facts ?

Apart from you I listed sources. Those sources were neither written by me, nor do I have influence on their appearance.

But still, you try to put the blame on me. What´s next ?

Did I shoot the policemen ?

I´m not going into the ROE-issue anymore. You seem to have a really fluffy idea of ROE´s in realtime scenarios.

@Pathy:

Quote[/b] ]Whats even more sad is when they have to resort to telling other people, like RKSL, they know nothing, or posting flames at them, like with me, when they challenge what you've said.

Omg !

Do you like to hear yourself telling things that are not true, or are you suffering from dyslexia ?

I didn´t tell RKSL that he does not know nothing. I said that WE alltogether, including you and me, Mr Pathy don´t know ANY details about what happened there. WE only know what was left behind in the aftermath.

Posting flames ?

Are YOU seriously saying that ?

You haven´t challenged what I said a bit. Challenging something would mean actually debating the issue or providing sources or experiences. I can´t see any of that from your side. In fact there was no substance at all in your posts.

Quote[/b] ]The saddest point of all is that someone i'd have put on my "respected forum member" list is resorting to the old "age" tactic in a debate.

Debating means that there are at least 2 people who exchange their thoughts, facts and sources. If you think that personal rambling is part of debating, you´re wrong.

I guess the debate with RockofSL was indeed a debate up to the point where he decided to bail out, but there was NO debate with you. You might want to reread your posts if you can´t remember.

Quote[/b] ]I'm not contributing anything? What have you contributed other than dragging this thread into an argument, handing out insults and acting like a spoilt brat.

No, you are not contributing.

I handed out insults ? I acted like a spoiled brat ?

Sure Pathy, sure....

Quote[/b] ]As RockofSL said: Discussions over.

For you it never started.

And no, a discussion is over when it´s over, not when someone decides that it would be better to bail out of it.

For you the discussion never began, as you were never contributing to it.

Quote[/b] ]Cheers!

I'm in uni flats with 20 female nurses (in training) and 3 other guys, we're all going out tomorrow night, looking well forward to it

They apparently fired into the air, but not into the crowd.

Great contribution !

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

At what point did i bale out? I think you've made an ass of yourself. You keep trying to find excuses and justifications for something you said then denied it again.

You talk about ROE but i seriously doubt you ever worked under any real ones in any war zone.

You resorted to insulting people rather than reasoned debate and to be honest I dont really think there is anything left to debate. You post here have shown you up. You saw somthing that added to your own prejudices, in your own mind atleast, was the truth. You clearly stated a 'fact' that wasnt true and later denied doing it. You then tried to justify it with more stories that weren't related to actual incident and then got angry that someone had seen through your 'story'.

I can only guess at your motivations for making your initial statments but really i dont think its worth continuing this debate. You are only embarressing yourself.

[Pathy 0]

Exactly RKSL, thats why the debates over: i dont debate with people who resort to insults when they have ran out of arguments. Indeed by definition it is no longer a debate.

Besides, as RKSL said, you've already embarrassed yourself enough, i wouldn't want you to commit BI forum suicide  

Edit: On a side note, its a shame that i really suspected that you would take offence when i said that you were reading too much into that one line, because BI forums are so highly strung. There is a feeling here in general that people cant be seen to be wrong. Thats why i dont visit here as often as i used to, i cant stand petty bickering like this. I'm out. (no doubt that will be seen as a "victory", take it any way you like, i don't care, i'm living in a flat with 20 female student nurses....)

Edit2: i've just heard that one iraqi guy ontop of the warrior was apparently shot, dont know how true that is, word of mouth, but even so...even if British troops did open fire.....you were making claims without evidence.....then you have the cheek to say things like:

Quote[/b] ]I said that WE alltogether, including you and me, Mr Pathy don´t know ANY details about what happened there.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]At what point did i bale out?

Quote[/b] ]You've posted something denied it and then tired to confuse the issue now you resort to poking fun at people now that you've been uncovered. I think this debate is over.

Clear enough ?

Quote[/b] ] I think you've made an ass of yourself.

If quoting from an internation news page means making an ass of one then all this forum has to consist of people of your definition.

At least I didn´t try to put words into someone else mouth like you did. Remember ?

Quote[/b] ]Getting back to the original point – you saying that the British Warrior crew opened fire on the crowd; It seems there is increasing evidence to prove you wrong.

Who is making what of whome now ?

Quote[/b] ]You talk about ROE but i seriously doubt you ever worked under any real ones in any war zone.

Aha. I can assure you that I did work under ROE´s. Maybe that´s why I don´t have that clinical and hypothetical view on them. Unlike you.

Quote[/b] ]You resorted to insulting people rather than reasoned debate

That´s not true. I kept is reasonable until Pathy came up with personal shit. He edited out soon after. At wich point did I leave the reasoned debate ? The one who left was you, not me.

Quote[/b] ]You clearly stated a 'fact' that wasnt true and later denied doing it.

I stated what is still to read on several newspages. Youi dreamed about the warrior thing. Not me. Putting words into my mouth doesn´t make you look like the king of truth. And I deny nothing. It´s still what it is. A picture , a text to the picture and newsreports of people who were killed in the incident. What is there to deny ?

Quote[/b] ]You then tried to justify it with more stories that weren't related to actual incident and then got angry that someone had seen through your 'story'.

Those stories are directly related to both issues. The prison incident and the demonstrators incident which are both connected to each other. Both articles mention more than the two incidents. I´m sorry for that. Pls sue the authors.

What story are you talking about ? I never made up any story here. Apart from the speculating that came from the Pathy/RockofSL side I see no story. At least I haven´t made up one. Where do you read that ? Or do you want to put words into my mouth once again ?

Quote[/b] ]I can only guess at your motivations for making your initial statments but really i dont think its worth continuing this debate.

Conspiracy !!!!

My indepth dark and evil intentions:

Hellfish said that no people were killed during the raid and as we have learned people have been killed, most probably by UK forces.

That´s my evil motivations.

Quote[/b] ]You are only embarressing yourself.

Really ? At least I don´t put words into other mouths and go frantic on them later on. So who´s embarrassing whome ?

Quote[/b] ]Exactly RKSL, thats why the debates over: i dont debate with people who resort to insults when they have ran out of arguments.

Once again. You have never been part of this debate. You just butted it with personal ramblings.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, as RKSL said, you've already embarrassed yourself enough, i wouldn't want you to commit BI forum suicide

You have a funny logic.

Quote[/b] ]Thats why i dont visit here as often as i used to, i cant stand petty bickering like this. I'm out.

Thank you.

Quote[/b] ]i've just heard that one iraqi guy ontop of the warrior was apparently shot, dont know how true that is, word of mouth, but even so...even if British troops did open fire.....you were making claims without evidence.....

Haha, this is getting grotesque.

Once for all :

I did quote the text underneath a picture of a burning warrior on the official BBC news webpage.

The text says: A number of civilians were reported killed and injured in the demonstrations.

As we have learned through different sources I also posted people died there. I assume they didn´t die of heart attacks.

The reports indicate different.

Now if you want to debate this, go ahead, but if your only way to approach someone who quotes a BBC source is to put words into his mouth and bail out but later on deny that and continue to put words into someone elses mouth, I can´t see how you could complain about anything.

[Pathy 0]

Sorry if you expect a "fighting" reply, but you're not worth the time of day. Besides, i don't need to argue it, i just need to tell people to read the thread back, no ammount of your fabrications, smoke screens and accusations can change all of that....

(the edit button can but then you'd be proving yourself wrong wouldnt you )

BTW the bit i edited out, i thought better of it but you posted 6 minutes after i did the edit, but even so, hardly personal, at least compared to shit like:

Quote[/b] ]But if you just want to try to put something on me to have a better day in your teenager life, why don´t you just go away ?

Actually you don´t contribute to the discussion.

Teenagers are so funny      

Edit: Ahhhh blaming the BBC source now are we?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sorry if you expect a "fighting" reply

How could I expect a "fighting" reply ?

That would require substance.

Quote[/b] ] i just need to tell people to read the thread back

Maybe you should do that also ?

Quote[/b] ]smoke screens and accusations can change all of that....

The wonderfull world of Pathy.

Quote[/b] ](the edit button can but then you'd be proving yourself wrong wouldnt you )

Unlike you I don´t edit my posts in the aftermath

You are 19. You´re a teenager.

Wiki:

Quote[/b] ]A teenager or teen is a person whose age is a number ending in "-teen" in the English language: that is to say, someone from the age of thirteen to the age of nineteen. The word is of recent origin, only having appeared in the mid 20th century. In Western culture, a distinct youth culture has developed. This culture is often considered inferior to the mainstream culture, or in rebellion against it, and is thus often referred to as a subculture or counterculture.

Face it, you are a teenager.

You got an identity problem ?

Quote[/b] ]Edit: Ahhhh blaming the BBC source now are we?

I guess you should really read back some pages. I was talking of nothing else than the BBC source.

I know, it´s hard to take, but that´s it.

Edit:

Ok, let´s see what the news bring over the next days.

Compensations for the killed ones have already been demanded.

Makes no sense to talk to a stone.

[Murmur2k 0]

OK guys - can we just leave it now please?

Lets get back on topic. Any more reports around of what the SAS guys were upto?

[Placebo 28]

If this thread had a point it's hiding somewhere with the WMD.

If there is news to discuss in continuation of the theme do it in the Iraq thread.