Big island

[vektorboson 8]

So, while we dream of 102x102 km islands, let's talk about the 51 km ones. Are there any out there that aren't just scratch islands made for fun?

When I remember correctly, then the ROC Mod's Taiwan map is a 51x51 map. It took me quite some while to fly across it with a F-16.

[Migebuff 0]

I tried to create some 102 x 102 islands, but OFP always crahes. It works in the editor, but when I try to start the mission, OFP crashes and says "out of reserved memory".

[-HUNTER- 1]

Naval battles?

Between who? There are no real battle capable ships except aircraftcarriers, but then it wouldnt be naval battle.

And this I really dont understand, since we have the multiple gunner stuff made by Col Klink. Some excellent boats have been released.

At sea large ships could shoot the S*** out of eachother, and you could also do the old sailboats with like 24 cannons on both sides...

There should be allmost no lag, since there isnt any object on the map except for a small island maybee. A large water map could also be cool for missions arround WWII in the pacific. Where you bomb the japanese fleet with your torpedo bombers... etc etc etc

Man I would love a REALLY large battleship with those uber large cannons!  

EDIT

Couldnt somebody make a large map like the ones discussed 102x102 with only water, nothing more just empty?

[[aps]gnat 28]

I tried to create some 102 x 102 islands, but OFP always crahes. It works in the editor, but when I try to start the mission, OFP crashes and says "out of reserved memory".

Its probably because you have !!  

My estimate is you will need about 1.0 to 1.2 Gig of memory

BTW, if you have the memory, its seems to only be the object count (and viewdistance of course) that is the major effector of frame rate. eg my 51km island with about 10% land and 7000 object ran at ~40fps while flying over it.

Also, just editing this island in WrpTool requires 210Mb memory.

PMC Euro is a nice usable 25kmx25km island ..............

Quote[/b] ]Man I would love a REALLY large battleship with those uber large cannons

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Fleets In !!!</span>

.

Shame the sides arent ballanced or some are a little useless.

(Spot the ski-boat )

[-HUNTER- 1]

WHOAAHHAHHAHAHAHHA holy shit that skiboat is small!

I have them all though except the carriers but I mean even bigger and badder ships, thinks of USS Misouri...

Kaboooom

The older heavy guns, with cruisemissiles, and other modern weapons like the Phalanx AA guns...

[Migebuff 0]

Quote[/b] ]Its probably because you have !!

My estimate is you will need about 1.0 to 1.2 Gig of memory

BTW, if you have the memory, its seems to only be the object count (and viewdistance of course) that is the major effector of frame rate. eg my 51km island with about 10% land and 7000 object ran at ~40fps while flying over it.

Also, just editing this island in WrpTool requires 210Mb memory.

I dont think its my system. I've got 1024 Mb, I think that should be enough. My test island does not have a single object on it, and I even set my viewdistance to 500m, but always the same result: CTD.

Maybe its because the island is not binarized, I tried to binarize it, but binarize.exe crashes.

[ramboofp 0]

I havn t super power computer

i have only 1024Mb of ram and the island run

i did a benchmark

i had a very strange result

on this screen i had only 32Fps on the desert island

with viewdistance at 5000M

http://www.3division.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1156

but

on this screen i had 64Fps on the 100KM x 100KM island !

with viewdistance at 5000M

http://www.3division.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1155

with a the same island but with 950000 object this time

i use the nvidia driver

[ramboofp 0]

Quote[/b] ]Its probably because you have !!

My estimate is you will need about 1.0 to 1.2 Gig of memory

BTW, if you have the memory, its seems to only be the object count (and viewdistance of course) that is the major effector of frame rate. eg my 51km island with about 10% land and 7000 object ran at ~40fps while flying over it.

Also, just editing this island in WrpTool requires 210Mb memory.

I dont think its my system. I've got 1024 Mb, I think that should be enough. My test island does not have a single object on it, and I even set my viewdistance to 500m, but always the same result: CTD.

Maybe its because the island is not binarized, I tried to binarize it, but binarize.exe crashes.

hmmm

try to dont use any addons

so do use any pbo in res/addon (dont del it just move outside )

and /addons

let only O.pbo and O_wp.pbo in the resistance addons directory

set the land detail to very low

a 100km x 100km should run after do this i think

[Migebuff 0]

Doesnt help, I still get an error message + CTD.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

what if somebody who makes the "big 5 island"  would scrap the original everon , malden textures and say replcae 'em with nogova textures?

Very good idea!

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I know there would be need of a very good computer, but hell, think about Battlefield 2.

Thousands of people ran into the shops to get 2GB of ram, only to play this ~game~ 100% lagfree.

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I really hope that someone takes the idea of all the islands together!

MfG Lee

[shinRaiden 0]

Here's a few points of reference...

1) A 102km elevation takes a minimum of 16mb in raw FWVR format. That's exponentially more than what's required for a 51km at 4.1mb, a 25km at 1mb, or a standard 12km at 273kb. Obviously that's pushing some limits with the cell matrix requiring 60000 times the memory required for a standard 12km map. Scaling anything 60000 times is going to have odd effects.

2) Oh, you wanted to put some objects on said map? Nogova's got the most objects of the BIS maps, and that's only ~175 000 objects with a maximum polycount per cell of ~18 000 polygons. That works out to an average of ~2.67 objects per cell. Using Daddl's analysis to determine that land surface area is only about 55% of the total map area, you get an object density of ~4.8 objects per cell.

Now if you wanted a similar density on a 102km map, be prepared for some chunking. Actually, what you're looking at is going to be about 11 million objects, plus another half of Nogova's object count. The highest I've ever gone is 1.2 million, and verified functional in game. That's about .47 objects per cell, 10% of the density of Nogova.

Since this is a WRPtool functionality discussion, I presume that you're aware that the region placement tool - which is much faster than copy/paste - is limited to 10k objects per operation? That means you're going to have to run it at least 110 times to get 1.1 million random bushes, or 1100 if you dare for 11 million.

3) There's also the problem of actually making the map. Really the only practical way to make a map of that scale is to work on four 51km's, and even that's a heavy CPU / ram stretch at ~2.75 million objects each. You could go for 25km's at only .68 million objects, but that's 16 maps to coordinate, not really practical for hobbyist mods to develop and syncronize.

WRPtool is stable and it works, but we're still talking about hundreds of megabytes of addresses, indexes, models, textures, and so on. You need space to put that data somewhere, and it takes time and bandwidth to load it all for editing. There's only so much optimization you can do for a massive amount of data.

4) The FPS lag is somewhat misleading, since when you're testing that a map can load all you're going to see in impact is the local render clipping range. ie, The fps is reflective of the per-cell poly density. That's why I get a fairly high fps on my 1.2 million object map.

What is more concerning, and a better indicator of potential performance problems, is the VM size. You'll notice that it grows exponentially when you try to load that large of a map into OFP. The data is getting loaded - not streamed, and that's going to have different sorts of impact not immediately apparent in FPS tickers.

OFP already has had some past issues with some memory management ( -nomap ) and I would expect that the immense buffers required for a 102km map would demand an excessive portion of the OFP VM window.

Related to that, most 102km CTD's I've seen have been due to the fact that it absolutely can only be run at VERY_LOW terrainGrid settings. While the indexing suggests that LOW or 4096 cell maps are theoretically possible, apparently that doesn't translate somewhere in the process of converting stored to dynamic matrices. The other potential requirement - unconfirmed - is that an intro_anim is required to avoid a CTD exiting the mission editor to return to the main menu.

5) The only 'safe' limit you have is the 512 texture count limit. On a standard map, that averages to about 128 cells per texture for variety. On a 102km that's 8192 cells per texture. Some experiements have been done using aerial photography for textures, but at the most that's only practical for a 22x22 cell block, or 1.5% of a standard map. That scales out to 2 thousandths of one percent on a 102km map.

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In short, the maps are playable, but you need at least 2gb of ram to be safe, and development in anything less than a large team commercial development is impractical. You can only run them at VERY_LOW detail settings. They're an interesting exercise, but not really feasible for implementation. A large number of users will be unable even think of loading it. Tonal's numbers (a 25km map well within the normal BIS map density levels) caused enough problems for people, an indicator that many computers are not sufficently scalable.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Hmm, we could make a readme that says: "Warning, this island kills your computer!"

Ok, serious now.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Looks like it isn't that easy(to make AND to use) it looked like.

MfG Lee