Hurricane Katrina!

[hellfish6 7]

The Japanese are a very homogenous society - the only cultural minority of significance are the Ainu, IIRC, and most of them live in the north. I'm not trying to sound like a complete racist here - I'm speaking from personal experience - homogenous cultures (culturally, economically, educationally) tend to help themselves, though that's by no means exclusive. But in the disasters I've been in, communities tend to help themselves first. Whether they be white, black, hispanic, rich, poor, middle class, urban or rural, they each tend to help each other far more than any other group.

I think when you compare it to New Orleans (and indeed many parts of the US and other multicultural societies) there is not a strong sense of community in the broad sense. Often I've heard to there being two New Orleans - the downtown and French Quarter and then the ghetto. While there is no physical separation between the two, I think there's definately a cultural and economic separation, which is what can lead to a breakdown. When one group is seen as better off than another, it's not suprising when the have-nots take advantage of what they can from the haves.

This isn't necessarily a color/race thing either. It's largely economic. I think in Japan there's a much more level economic field and a lack of secondary pressures that encourages a sense of community. I think much of that is lacking in American, especially Southern American, culture. In the sense that a Japanese is a Japanese is a Japanese, an American isn't necessarily and American - we've fostered a notion of uniqueness and identity that often helps, but can sometimes hurt us. We've got African-Americans, Mexican Americans, Puerto Ricans, White Americans, Arab Americans - they are all citizens equally, but they are all also unique and sometimes self-contained communities of their own.

I'm no sociologist, though - this is opinion based on experience. Feel free to correct, argue with or ignore me. Especially regarding Japanese culture, which my experience is only derived from books (Haruki Murakami rules).

[Bernadotte 0]

Now we're seeing the Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma and even New York Guard units in Louisiana. The time it's taking to realize who they need to call up, getting them all to assemble (remember - Arkansas/Texas/Oklahoma Guard units weren't alerted as their states were safe, so they had to pull everyone out of their jobs) and then transporting them all to New Orleans. It takes time.

How can a state send their NG overseas without arranging to cover their ass at home?  Alternate capacity should have been identified and deployment plans should have been worked out before the first Louisianna NG set foot in Baghdad.  It should merely take hours longer to respond, not days longer.

Let's hope lessons are being learned quickly because the hurricane season is very far from being over.

[hellfish6 7]

I'm sure there are scattered support units left in Louisiana and Mississippi - logistics, signals, transportation, admin units, etc. Not 100% are deployed from a state, but the 256th and 155th are the single largest chunks of their states militaries.

Besides that - this is unprecedented. When was the last time an entire major metropolitan area in the USA was evacuated? You can't prepare for or even anticipate that. Sure there's a hurricane season, but actual strikes are incredibly rare. Especially ones of this magnitude. Even evacuation plans for WMDs in major urban areas probably don't consider moving this many people this quickly (and remember - in a WMD attack you don't even necessarily want people to evacuate).

[shinRaiden 0]

Japanese don't loot. Period. They're far too socially orderly to let that happen. Even in World War II, there never was anthing like what's going on in NO. That's the price of fierce cultural independence at the individual level, you run the risk of stuff like this happening.

Agreed though that the communications breakdown is inexcusable. This has become a routine occurance, so much so that standard expectations is to write off any metro area communictions any where in the US in case of a significant event. The 'solution' is to wait for FEMA or Ham radio operators to arrive with a 'replacement' radio network, then use the fractured municipal comm's for local block traffic.

Police, fire, and city shops all use different radios and bands, often there's custom trunking and control systems that don't have interconnects, there's no roll-over plan, and they just wait for someone to bail them out. That's inexcusable, and citizens nationwide need to be holding the politicians feet to the fire on this issue.

[denoir 0]

People seem to forget the distances and time required to make things happen.

You see on the news that people are being moved from New Orleans to Houston. For those of you unaquainted with US geography, that's 350 miles, or 562 kilometers. That's at the very least a half day's drive, not counting load up and arrival processing time. Also the buses and what not don't just magically show up over night. It takes them - guess what - the better part of another day to arrive, from where ever they were scrounged. There was a report about a convoy of school buses coming in to shuttle people out. That means somebody had to call around a few days ago, find a school district with operable buses and drivers - which is probably a functioning district with classes, make notification to the student's families that bus service is canceled, make fuel and payment arrangements, round up the buses and drivers, make sure the drivers are equiped to travel into the disaster zone, etc. And do it n times over.

So these evacuations you're seeing with people being bussed out, the coordinations for that were moving probably 3 days ago, when the Fed's started coming in. Let's suppose they can get 50 people on a bus. To move 10k people from one site alone, that's 2000 trips. When the crackheads whine and complain about "the pigs taunting us with buses going by", that's because they won't do math beyond (me + me = me). If they're well enough to stand there and shoot at the military and police, and complain on tv about the intolerant conditions, then they're well enough to go to the back of the line so that the women and children and medically infirm can go first.

...

It's true that a huge effort is required, but the international community managed a far more efficient operation after the tsunami.

We're not just talking about an evacuation, we're talking about delivering basic supplies like water and food.

And the estimates of the effort come not from Houston, but from the ground on New Orleans.

I really really suggest you listen to the interview with New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin about the situation on the ground and how although promised, nothing is happening.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

Scroll down and click on the link saying "See the mayor's demand for national leaders to 'get off their asses' -- 12:09)"

Quote[/b] ]It takes time to gater and organize convoys and supplies. Even if they're preposisitioned and palleted, you still have to load them in the trucks, make sure everyone has their kits, that everyone has been to the bathroom before leaving, lumber down the highway with all the other convoys heading in, cut your way into the city, assess your situation, coordinate with local agencies, blah-blah, long before any supplies reach the people or people get pulled out.

To load up some aircraft with supplies and to airdrop them takes no time at all. That kind of trivial logistics should have been managed within 12 hours of the disaster.

And what you don't seem to understand is they knew this could happen and they did not prepare shit. What planet do you live on?

Quote[/b] ]Of course there's crime, that's an ordinary part of life in the neighborhoods and projects where they come from. It's not like they're suddenly going to have a big change of heart just because their turf washed out to sea.

It's business like usual that people are getting murdered in broad daylight over food? It's business like usual that women are getting raped on the street? It's business like usual that hospitals are being raided by armed men?

Quote[/b] ]Finally, people are far too spoiled. They have this silly idea that air conditioning is a critical right for human survival. Hmmph. Proper ventilation, and getting outside is enough. Besides, A/C messes up your hydration worse than sweating it out. I grew up in Florida, and we actually kept our A/C off most of the year and just used ceiling fans with the windows open. And we spent a lot of time outside too in the fresh air. And frankly, the air in New Orleans is probably the cleanest it's been in years right now. Give them all shovels and start work crews. If they have outstanding warrants, slap them in chains before a magistrate and send them out as a chain gang. Better that then sitting around shoving and cutting in line for the bus. That's no better than kindergarten behavior, except that their proof of id to buy liquor says they should have finished kindergarten years prior.

AC? We're talking about people dying of dehydration, rotting corpses in the streets, people without food and water.

I am truly disgusted with your lack of empathy, shinRaiden. Trying to blame the victims of this for their situation just shameful. I do hope your religious friends have more of a moral fiber in their body, since you clearly don't.

[denoir 0]

Japanese don't loot. Period.

Not counting Nanjing of course?

[Bernadotte 0]

A BBC chap was trying to draw comparisons between this and the Kobe earthquake, but admitted that New Orleans was certainly 'unique'.

The damage from the Kobe quake didn't take days to unfold and escalate.

Kobe was not sealed off from the outside world for most of a week.

You could still find drinking water and food in Kobe.

You still had most communications systems working in Kobe.

You could still flush your toilet in Kobe.

You could immediately land helicopters in Kobe.

Kobe didn't lose much of its police force.

Kobe didn't have gunshops on every other block.

Kobe didn't have as many heroin addicts unable to get a fix.

etc...

[hellfish6 7]

Japanese don't loot. Period.

Not counting Nanjing of course?

C'mon... that was a bit of a low blow.

I don't think airdropping is a useful solution, for the following reasons: flooding (and local terrain - it's very swampy down there) and Collateral damage (what if it lands on a house? A person? Remember America is still a very litigious society and I wouldn't be a bit suprised if someone who was starving and without water eventually sued the government when a pallate of food and water landed on their wrecked house).

Besides that, let me stress - this is unprecedented. America can deal with hurricanes - Florida recovered very quickly from three last year (there are NO signs of destruction here anymore). We've never had a city sink underwater (AFAIR). We've never had to evacuate so many people in modern recollection.

I'm not saying they're doing a good job, I'm just saying they're probably not doing as bad a job as many people think, given the circumstances.

[Bernadotte 0]

I don't think airdropping is a useful solution, for the following reasons: flooding (and local terrain - it's very swampy down there) and Collateral damage (what if it lands on a house? A person? Remember America is still a very litigious society and I wouldn't be a bit suprised if someone who was starving and without water eventually sued the government when a pallate of food and water landed on their wrecked house).

Did you see the image of the 10 ton sandbag being lowered by blackhawk into a levee breach?  What you don't see to the right is that a big bulldozer is already pushing dumptruck loads of fill into the same breach.  In seconds, the earth mover will accomplish what it can take hours for the chopper to achieve.

What you also don't see is that same chopper lowering 10 ton bags of relief supplies at the convention center.

These are tough times for the Republicans requiring tough choices.  Who do you save first; the people or the property?

[hellfish6 7]

Airdropping = parachutes to me. Airlifting = helicopters. And yes, there have been shots of UH60s airlifting supplies in on CNN - mainly to the Convention Center so far.

The property is gone. No doubt about that. They are working to save lives, but it's hard when you've got thugs shooting at your drivers and pilots.

[denoir 0]

Japanese don't loot. Period.

Not counting Nanjing of course?

C'mon... that was a bit of a low blow.

I don't think so. When people start citing the superiority of a homogeneous culture, I think it is only fair to show the other side as well.

Having said that, I could bet money that the Japanese, or anybody else would act exactly the same way given time. In a city, there is no natural food and water and sooner or later you'll need food. Discipline can only take you so far. If you are dying of hunger or thirst, you will have little problem breaking a window and taking it from a store. Incidentally, nearly all the looting in NO is of that type.

And you have criminal elements everywhere. You have drug junkies who will raid hospitals when their supplies vanish. Yes, there are junkies in Japan as well.

Quote[/b] ]

We've never had a city sink underwater (AFAIR). We've never had to evacuate so many people in modern recollection.

Well no you haven't.. (not counting New Orleans a few times before this one).

Quote[/b] ]I'm not saying they're doing a good job, I'm just saying they're probably not doing as bad a job as many people think, given the circumstances.

Come on, you have the people at the convention center that are dying of thirst, disease, that have no food and are getting killed and raped. 20,000 people. That's 500 hundred buses. How bloody hard is it to get a couple of hundred of buses to pick them up? I think that by any standard the efforts so far have been utterly pathetic - which also the NO mayor is saying.

Having said that, it looks that things are finally starting to come in to the city.

[hellfish6 7]

Has NO flooded on this scale before? I mean I bet they get localized flooding, but the pumps have always been able to handle it. I've only found references to fires as far as disasters go.

Quote[/b] ]Come on, you have the people at the convention center that are dying of thirst, disease, that have no food and are getting killed and raped. 20,000 people. That's 500 hundred buses. How bloody hard is it to get a couple of hundred of buses to pick them up? I think that by any standard the efforts so far have been utterly pathetic - which also the NO mayor is saying.

Well... as I understand it they're flying people out of the Convention Center and Superdome - there aren't busses lined up out front. They can only fly in one or two helicopters at a time, I bet, as there are probably lots of obstacles hanging around and many of the obvious LZs (parking lots) are probably under water. So you have to load people and whatever luggage they brought onto one or two helicopters at a time, while maintaining a controlled airspace so they don't start flying into each other.

And you can't transport these people like Army troops - you have to have seats and buckle them in, nobody hanging out the door, etc. It's a naturally slow process until they can get land access to these sites.

Even the entire aviation brigade of the 101st Airborne couldn't transport an entire division in a day - in GW1 they moved one brigade (maybe 3-5000 troops) every 18 hours or so. And they had all the landing zone's they'd ever need in the desert. Here they're very restricted.

Like I said - things could be going WAY better, but it's totally silly to be armchair quarterbacking when most of us have very little idea what's going on or how complicated the situation is. Hurricanes screw up a lot of shit even without the flooding.

[denoir 0]

Like I said - things could be going WAY better, but it's totally silly to be armchair quarterbacking when most of us have very little idea what's going on or how complicated the situation is. Hurricanes screw up a lot of shit even without the flooding.

Well, we may have a limited idea of what is going on, but the people like the NO mayor or the Louisiana emergency coordinator should have. The latter has called the effort a "national disgrace". From what they're saying the command and control of the efforts is non-existent. That nothing is being coordinated properly and that all they are getting is empty promises in general and in practice the message that nobody really has the authority to do anything.

Perhaps things will improve soon, but so far, if you believe the people on the ground, there has been a serious lack of organization.

Quote[/b] ]Well... as I understand it they're flying people out of the Convention Center and Superdome - there aren't busses lined up out front.

From what I understand bus access is quite possible, and that's what's happening right now. Fox News reported that up to 200 buses are on the way to the superdome and the convention center.

Here is by the way the transcript of the interview with the mayor earlier today:

Quote[/b] ]

The following is a transcript of WWL correspondent Garland Robinette's interview with Nagin on Thursday night. Robinette asked the mayor about his conversation with President Bush:

NAGIN: I told him we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we're outmanned in just about every respect. (Listen to the mayor express his frustration in this video -- 12:09)

You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people that were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. ... You pull off the doggone ventilator vent and you look down there and they're standing in there in water up to their freaking necks.

And they don't have a clue what's going on down here. They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed.

WWL: Did you say to the president of the United States, "I need the military in here"?

NAGIN: I said, "I need everything."

Now, I will tell you this -- and I give the president some credit on this -- he sent one John Wayne dude down here that can get some stuff done, and his name is [Lt.] Gen. [Russel] Honore.

And he came off the doggone chopper, and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done.

They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority to get the job done, and we can save some people.

WWL: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?

NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.

I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

That's -- they're thinking small, man. And this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man. This is crazy.

I've got 15,000 to 20,000 people over at the convention center. It's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines Parish. ... We don't have anything, and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines Parish.

It's awful down here, man.

WWL: Do you believe that the president is seeing this, holding a news conference on it but can't do anything until [Louisiana Gov.] Kathleen Blanco requested him to do it? And do you know whether or not she has made that request?

NAGIN: I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this, and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.

We're getting reports and calls that are breaking my heart, from people saying, "I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out." And that's happening as we speak.

You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."

WWL: Who'd you say that to?

NAGIN: Everybody: the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA. You name it, we said it.

And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives.

And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.

In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city. That's a power station over there.

So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.

WWL: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that just couldn't be done?

NAGIN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture. But, you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done.

Then they told me that they went overnight, and they built 17 concrete structures and they had the pulleys on them and they were going to drop them.

I flew over that thing yesterday, and it's in the same shape that it was after the storm hit. There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.

WWL: If some of the public called and they're right, that there's a law that the president, that the federal government can't do anything without local or state requests, would you request martial law?

NAGIN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that a few days ago.

WWL: Did the governor do that, too?

NAGIN: I don't know. I don't think so.

But we called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control. And we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead-tired from saving people, but they worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night. And so we redirected all of our resources, and we hold it under check.

I'm not sure if we can do that another night with the current resources.

And I am telling you right now: They're showing all these reports of people looting and doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that, but people are desperate and they're trying to find food and water, the majority of them.

Now you got some knuckleheads out there, and they are taking advantage of this lawless -- this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small majority of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.

And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.

You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's the reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drugstores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.

And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug-starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.

WWL: Well, you and I must be in the minority. Because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's going on to this point has been done as good as it can possibly be.

NAGIN: Really?

WWL: I know you don't feel that way.

NAGIN: Well, did the tsunami victims request? Did it go through a formal process to request?

You know, did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there? What is more important?

And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

WWL: You and I will be in the funny place together.

NAGIN: But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.

WWL: What can we do here?

NAGIN: Keep talking about it.

WWL: We'll do that. What else can we do?

NAGIN: Organize people to write letters and make calls to their congressmen, to the president, to the governor. Flood their doggone offices with requests to do something. This is ridiculous.

I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.

WWL: I'll say it right now, you're the only politician that's called and called for arms like this. And if -- whatever it takes, the governor, president -- whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes, I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.

NAGIN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just -- I'm at the point now where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same in this time.

WWL: We're both pretty speechless here.

NAGIN: Yeah, I don't know what to say. I got to go.

WWL: OK. Keep in touch. Keep in touch.

[Bernadotte 0]

I'm sure there are scattered support units left in Louisiana and Mississippi - logistics, signals, transportation, admin units, etc. Not 100% are deployed from a state, but the 256th and 155th are the single largest chunks of their states militaries.

Besides that - this is unprecedented. When was the last time an entire major metropolitan area in the USA was evacuated?

Unprecedented? Civil unrest, riots, looting are nothing new to the American NG. And it certainly wasn't unpredictable. The scale of evac may be unprecedented, but that's FEMA's problem which FEMA can't solve as well if there's no NG to protect them.

[shinRaiden 0]

People seem to forget the distances and time required to make things happen.

You see on the news that people are being moved from New Orleans to Houston. For those of you unaquainted with US geography, that's 350 miles, or 562 kilometers. That's at the very least a half day's drive, not counting load up and arrival processing time. Also the buses and what not don't just magically show up over night. It takes them - guess what - the better part of another day to arrive, from where ever they were scrounged. There was a report about a convoy of school buses coming in to shuttle people out. That means somebody had to call around a few days ago, find a school district with operable buses and drivers - which is probably a functioning district with classes, make notification to the student's families that bus service is canceled, make fuel and payment arrangements, round up the buses and drivers, make sure the drivers are equiped to travel into the disaster zone, etc. And do it n times over.

So these evacuations you're seeing with people being bussed out, the coordinations for that were moving probably 3 days ago, when the Fed's started coming in. Let's suppose they can get 50 people on a bus. To move 10k people from one site alone, that's 2000 trips. When the crackheads whine and complain about "the pigs taunting us with buses going by", that's because they won't do math beyond (me + me = me). If they're well enough to stand there and shoot at the military and police, and complain on tv about the intolerant conditions, then they're well enough to go to the back of the line so that the women and children and medically infirm can go first.

...

It's true that a huge effort is required, but the international community managed a far more efficient operation after the tsunami.

We're not just talking about an evacuation, we're talking about delivering basic supplies like water and food.

The tsunami came with really little to no practical warning. There was a carrier group in the immediate area that was able to move right in. The water washed in, then right back out so it wasn't a problem to just lift in a couple buldozers and clear a path for LCAC's out of Guam - which took a while still to show up. They're still doing cleanup here and there, and they're by no means fully recovered from the tsunami. Also people didn't like to talk too much about how the Indonesians kicked out the 'infidel' western help rather than accept 'infidels' helping muslims, or risk futher foriegn meddling turning Aceh into another east timor for them. And the corruption in India and Sri Lanka? Always more to the story. Still, the casualty count will be much lower here than in the tsunami, because the non-belligerent for the most part heeded the warnings.

In contrast here, they knew a storm was coming so they pushed every ship possible out as fast and far as they could. It's going to take time (oops, I said the forbidden word again) for them to come back in.

Quote[/b] ]

And the estimates of the effort come not from Houston, but from the ground on New Orleans.

That was a case example only of the distances and regional coordination involved. If you understand US federal, state, and local lack of joint cooperation and organization, you'd realize that the fact that it's happening at all, and on the scale that it is, is quite miraculous.

Quote[/b] ]

I really really suggest you listen to the interview with New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin about the situation on the ground and how although promised, nothing is happening.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

Scroll down and click on the link saying "See the mayor's demand for national leaders to 'get off their asses' -- 12:09)"

Quote[/b] ]It takes time to gater and organize convoys and supplies. Even if they're preposisitioned and palleted, you still have to load them in the trucks, make sure everyone has their kits, that everyone has been to the bathroom before leaving, lumber down the highway with all the other convoys heading in, cut your way into the city, assess your situation, coordinate with local agencies, blah-blah, long before any supplies reach the people or people get pulled out.

To load up some aircraft with supplies and to airdrop them takes no time at all. That kind of trivial logistics should have been managed within 12 hours of the disaster.

Case in point, McChord AFB here in Seattle is shipping C-17's to NO. But before they go, theres lots to do. You have to find out whats needed. Who's bringing what? What special resources are needed - and what are already covered by other agencies? That's time on the phone, not on the tarmac. It takes time to pull pallets out of storage and rack them in. These are emergency disaster supplies, and aren't always sitting in the hanger waiting to go. Then there's the civilian rescue teams. All general air traffic - pretty much all non-military flights - in the NO area are prohibited. That means all these civilians going down need to make arrangements to take time off from work. Do you think the Doctors Without Borders sit around playing Xbox all day with bags packed and a pager on? No, they're doctors, and have to make arrangements for patients at home. Then they got to get to the base and get cleared. The United States is a rather big piece of land, and by the time you load up, fly out, and get to NO, that's effectively an entire day. They're not going to fly them down empty, they're going with rescuers and supplies, then turn around and use the C-17's for evacuation and transport. And of course this is using strategic military equipment for civilian operations, which is a major hassle.

As an intelligence officer I'd expect that you'd have a bit of a clue about logisitics, especially in a disaster zone.

Quote[/b] ]

And what you don't seem to understand is they knew this could happen and they did not prepare shit. What planet do you live on?

If you'd bother to read my posts instead of just pick at them you'd notice that I have castigated them for slacking off on communications prepardness. It's such a systemic problem that it's making failures in management courses. This is a problem that affects most municipalities.

Additionally, there's the seperation of legal entities structure in the US. Technically, the NG in a neighboring state doesn't have to care or respond to their neighboring state. It's even that way at the county or parish level. The fact that stuff is happening is proof that things are working to some degree, and that people were prepared to mobilize as best as they could. Oh, and the NG are reserves, so these people got to call in sick to their normal jobs too.

The media is either standing in water watching bodies go by, or off on a satelite station in NYC. They don't know the story on the ground in between those two places. It's like in Baghdad, where the reporters are to lazy to go outside the Green Zone. What they don't see is all the NG and relief agencies that prepositioned convoys and supplies at the edge of the storm track before the storm, and were just waiting to go in. Then they had to hold back because of the unique flooding situation.. Now they're starting to come through, but these are support infrastructure convoys and supplies, not distribution trucks. They're not going to go up and down the streets pitching flats of water bottles off the back of the trucks, they're going to drive right past the projects, dump their supplies at central drop points, and let the on-the-ground people cover the distribution.

If anything, the clueless media is encouraging the chaos by incompetent and ignorant reporting.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Of course there's crime, that's an ordinary part of life in the neighborhoods and projects where they come from. It's not like they're suddenly going to have a big change of heart just because their turf washed out to sea.

It's business like usual that people are getting murdered in broad daylight over food? It's business like usual that women are getting raped on the street? It's business like usual that hospitals are being raided by armed men?

You don't get out much do you? Come over here and we'll go visit Pioneer Square about 1am. Even the police don't go down there in the middle of the night. Oh, and they don't take kindly to white guys, so bring your flak jacket and a helmet.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Finally, people are far too spoiled. They have this silly idea that air conditioning is a critical right for human survival. Hmmph. Proper ventilation, and getting outside is enough. Besides, A/C messes up your hydration worse than sweating it out. I grew up in Florida, and we actually kept our A/C off most of the year and just used ceiling fans with the windows open. And we spent a lot of time outside too in the fresh air. And frankly, the air in New Orleans is probably the cleanest it's been in years right now. Give them all shovels and start work crews. If they have outstanding warrants, slap them in chains before a magistrate and send them out as a chain gang. Better that then sitting around shoving and cutting in line for the bus. That's no better than kindergarten behavior, except that their proof of id to buy liquor says they should have finished kindergarten years prior.

AC? We're talking about people dying of dehydration, rotting corpses in the streets, people without food and water.

If they'd stop shooting at the police and NG and stand in line, there'd be food an water for all. It's the arrogant "me first" people that are forcing the situation, and causeing the damage and pilfering of the relief supplies. If the thugs would let the rescuers do their job, the medically needy would be able to recieve the attention they need, and needless deaths averted. How many people died because evacuations were halted due to snipers? Hmm?

Quote[/b] ]

I am truly disgusted with your lack of empathy, shinRaiden. Trying to blame the victims of this for their situation just shameful. I do hope your religious friends have more of a moral fiber in their body, since you clearly don't.

Am I blaming everyone? Apparently you think so. I'm only blaming the fraction of 1% of the city's population, the dregs of the projects that are deliberately exploiting this disaster for their personal gain. They have none but themselves to blame for their predicament. They ignored the evacuation orders. They added to the destruction and desolation, out of spite or greed. They destroyed or prevented the distribution of supplies sent for their ingrateful relief. They attempted to take the lives of those engaged in lifesaving efforts on their behalf. And then they blame the rescuers for insulting them by the very efforts underway already.

And as for Nanking, that was institutional pillaging by an organized military during an occupation. That was not by any means Japanese people attacking or looting Japanese neighbors or businesses on a personal individual level. Totally different situations, and you should know the difference.

[Bernadotte 0]

You don't get out much do you? Come over here and we'll go visit Pioneer Square about 1am. Even the police don't go down there in the middle of the night.

Actually, it sounds like you don't get out much.  And who can blame you with that level of public security?  Here in Europe we have far fewer places like Pioneer Square.  That might explain why we are able to "get out" as much as we like, day or night.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Has NO flooded on this scale before? I mean I bet they get localized flooding, but the pumps have always been able to handle it. I've only found references to fires as far as disasters go.

There were Bronze John epidemics as well, but I'm not sure how bad they were.

[MilitiaSniper 0]

You don't get out much do you? Come over here and we'll go visit Pioneer Square about 1am. Even the police don't go down there in the middle of the night.

Actually, it sounds like you don't get out much.  And who can blame you with that level of public security?  Here in Europe we have far fewer places like Pioneer Square.  That might explain why we are able to "get out" as much as we like, day or night.

Damn.., Why in the world. Does every, "Off Topic" seems like. A damn flaming war?

I started this topic because my best friend/battle buddy was missing. WELL.., Good News! BumRush is found and him and his family is alive! They did lose all their stuff.

But the the government is getting ready to send him back to help stop the looting, shootings, violence, and help in the search and rescue efforts! God's Speed BumRush!

Sincerely, MilitiaSniper

PS. Now stop the.., My country is better than your counrty bull$#!%!

All countries have their good and bad! Respect people!

[shinRaiden 0]

Well that's good news to hear indeed.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I didn't read the last page and a half but I'm pretty sure Hellfish is wrong

[WhoCares 0]

Quote[/b] ]Besides that - this is unprecedented. When was the last time an entire major metropolitan area in the USA was evacuated? You can't prepare for or even anticipate that. Sure there's a hurricane season, but actual strikes are incredibly rare. Especially ones of this magnitude. Even evacuation plans for WMDs in major urban areas probably don't consider moving this many people this quickly (and remember - in a WMD attack you don't even necessarily want people to evacuate).

Sorry but this is only half of the truth.

1. It has long been anticipated that such a Hurricane will hit New Orleans - it was just not known when it would happen.

2. It was known that in such a case (or for other reasons) the city might get flooded. Today the results of such floodings can be anticipated fairly good.

While the potential actions ahead of such catastrophes might be limited, there should have been for long a detailed plan of actions to deal with the situation after it occured. Given that no plan will ever match the actual event, but it should not take six days and more to put up a coordinated (and be it just basic) infrastructure. That doesn't mean that everybody will be reached or even evacuated, but there should be some kind of regular access to hospitals and other important locations like the Superdome.

It seems to me that after the earthquake in Bam(Iran) in December 2003 such an infrastructure was faster established. Bam Red Cross/Red Crescent (check the day-by-day operations updates)

I also wonder a bit why they always only talk about the National Guard - what about the Army? They could apply their counter-insurgency training (for/from Iraq) against those marauding gangs... They might also be able to react faster than the National Guard (less time to activate).

[ralphwiggum 6]

And as for Nanking, that was institutional pillaging by an organized military during an occupation. That was not by any means Japanese people attacking or looting Japanese neighbors or businesses on a personal individual level. Totally different situations, and you should know the difference.

there is Nanking, and then there is Nanjing, Japan.

if this thread goes to another flame war, I'm giving PRs.

[MilitiaSniper 0]

if this thread goes to another flame war, I'm giving PRs.

Please guys play it cool in here. I really want to keep this open to people that can act cool about all this!

Alot of you know me! I don't ever say bad things about anyone's race, nationality, beliefs, or opinions! So I'm ASKING all to play this cool!

Sincerely, MilitiaSniper

[Bernadotte 0]

You don't get out much do you? Come over here and we'll go visit Pioneer Square about 1am. Even the police don't go down there in the middle of the night.

Actually, it sounds like you don't get out much.  And who can blame you with that level of public security?  Here in Europe we have far fewer places like Pioneer Square.  That might explain why we are able to "get out" as much as we like, day or night.

Damn.., Why in the world. Does every, "Off Topic" seems like. A damn flaming war?

I started this topic because my best friend/battle buddy was missing. WELL.., Good News! BumRush is found and him and his family is alive! They did lose all their stuff.

But the the government is getting ready to send him back to help stop the looting, shootings, violence, and help in the search and rescue efforts! God's Speed BumRush!

Sincerely, MilitiaSniper

PS. Now stop the.., My country is better than your counrty bull$#!%!

All countries have their good and bad! Respect people!

     

Nobody is flaming.  Let me try and explain what's being said:

Denoir lives in Europe and doesn't think the low levels of public security seen in NO should be considered normal.  ShinRaiden lives in the US and has tried to tell Denoir that low public security is entirely normal in parts of many American cities.  I couldn't resist noting the irony in ShinRaiden suggesting that Denoir doesn't get out much.  That's all.

Nobody is turning this into a Euro vs US debate.  But, instead of pretending the differences don't exist we should help those outside the US to understand the current crisis in the context of what's normal in America.

I'm glad you got word from BumRush.  I have a friend in Ocean Springs Mississippi (just a few miles from Biloxi).  I last heard from her on 28 August as she was preparing to flee.  Still waiting for a sign.

[Sophion-Blue 0]

Its good to have disasters like these, though it may not seem that way now. but look at the Titanic, we have better safety and rescue standards now becuase an "unsinkable" ship is kissing the ocean floor. I'm not saying we should have a party of anything. what I am saying is that we need to look back and learn what we're doing wrong and change it. Set standards from it. I know I shouldn't really this now since we are still saving people in NO but it's going to be said sometime. pluse this thread is looking like it will spiral any second... Also I usually say things out of the Blue, hence the name