The Middle East part 2

[Messiah 2]

mp_phoenix... dont you find it strange that the IAF never release videos of the bombings that go wrong?

hmmm, funny coincidence that

[dmakatra 1]

I wouldn't trust official media coverage from one of the participants in a conflict even if it'd said that my pants were on fire, and I looked down and they were.

Anyway, I read in the newspaper today that the IAF bombed a border-exit, and thus preventing civilians to escape. Can anyone comfirm this with a second source?

[mp_phonix 0]

mp_phoenix... dont you find it strange that the IAF never release videos of the bombings that go wrong?

hmmm, funny coincidence that  

ha ha very funny. like you UKF & US never misses their targets.please.

@dmakatra

Yes they did, but that was not the border pass, they attacked some trucks moving ammo into Lebanonb {inside Lebanon} near the borders pass. It was very close but the border pass was not targeted {or destroyed}

Beirut airport during bombins this night:

I really don't know why they bomb it so many times - I think it was the fifth or the sixth time ..

*sry for my grammer/spelling mistakes

[dmakatra 1]

mp_phoenix... dont you find it strange that the IAF never release videos of the bombings that go wrong?

hmmm, funny coincidence that

ha ha very funny. like you UKF & US never misses their targets.please.

@dmakatra

Yes they did, but that was not the border pass, they attacked some trucks moving ammo into Lebanonb {inside Lebanon} near the borders pass. It was very close but the border pass was not targeted {or destroyed}

Uhm. He never said that US/UK bombs always hit their targets, did he?

[mp_phonix 0]

Yes but he is acting like they are.

[Garcia 0]

Yes but he is acting like they are.

No he's not...

and you say scary got a good imagination...you keep imagining that other people say/think things they don't...

[868 0]

that you think the Israel will "accidently" attack the UK boats.

No, I don't think that the self preserving nation such as Israel will ever bite the hands that feeds them. Specially not now.

[Garcia 0]

that you think the Israel will "accidently" attack the UK boats.

No, I don't think that the self preserving nation such as Israel will ever bite the hands that feeds them. Specially not now.

It's mostly US that feeds them to my knowledge...

[deanosbeano 0]

so your proud of he IAF and the accuracy huh, well when you show videos of "precision Bombing", it looks like someone playing ofp, the reality is that, there were 10`s of thousands of foregn nationals in lebanon and israel knew that when it bombed the civilain airport they would be trapped,and now there starting not only to bomb lenanese civialians but those ,poor trapped foriegn nationals are being bombed too, did your so called Chief show you a video of that

All eight were from Montreal and are members of the same family, CanWest has learned. Four of those killed were children between ages one and eight.?.

source .|source2

but what do you care ,its what you wanted right?

Quote[/b] ]In my opnion - burn Gaza, Artilary them to death, bomb them, screw them, the go to Lebanon and bomb the whole southern sector.

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]Yes but he is acting like they are.

am I?

please, use your well mannered, mature and experienced powers of interlect to point out how i've managed to come across and saying that the UK and US always hit their targets/never miss...

Quote[/b] ]mp_phoenix... dont you find it strange that the IAF never release videos of the bombings that go wrong?

hmmm, funny coincidence that

hmmm, can't quite see where you've got that from... seems that you've assumed that I, like you, fantasise about the infalability of my host nation and that they can do no wrong in this world... or, the more likely, are you reacting to a perfectly well educated and credible challenge against the cover up performed by every government around this world, by trying, but failing miserably, to divert the question to me?

You're failing miserably, everyone can see it... you're cornered, you've expended all your pointless arguments that have no substance and now you revert to attacking me? Its a telling sign of your age and your maturity. I've long defended that age has no bearing on ones maturity or credibility in any argument and everyone should be treated as an equal regardless of age... you're sadly ruining that ideal for yourself...

You're an ignoramus and need to do some growing up in this world before you try and question or second guess what I was or wasnt trying to say...

and, just for the sake of argument, I'm not British and I'm not American... there's another one for you to sit and pull apart...

Every nation who releases footage to the media does it draw attention away from the those operations that failed miserably, hitting the wrong targets, killing innocents or just hitting your own men... it will always happen, in the same way governments use bad news (like 9/11) to 'bury' their own bad news...

using and argument of 'look at this officially released video of the targets being hit and no colateral damage' is absurd... I was trying to awaken your mind to thinking outside of the box, to try and erase this bizarre feeling you instill inside yourself that the IDF/IAF are infalible and never miss, and try and make yourself answer the question of why they never release a video that shows an operation that went wrong...

welcome to the real world, although on your past performance here, I doubt you'll choose to accept it.

[dmakatra 1]

Quote[/b] ]Yes but he is acting like they are.

am I?

please, use your well mannered, mature and experienced powers of interlect to point out how i've managed to come across and saying that the UK and US always hit their targets/never miss...

Quote[/b] ]mp_phoenix... dont you find it strange that the IAF never release videos of the bombings that go wrong?

hmmm, funny coincidence that

hmmm, can't quite see where you've got that from... seems that you've assumed that I, like you, fantasise about the infalability of my host nation and that they can do no wrong in this world... or, the more likely, are you reacting to a perfectly well educated and credible challenge against the cover up performed by every government around this world, by trying, but failing miserably, to divert the question to me?

You're failing miserably, everyone can see it... you're cornered, you've expended all your pointless arguments that have no substance and now you revert to attacking me? Its a telling sign of your age and your maturity. I've long defended that age has no bearing on ones maturity or credibility in any argument and everyone should be treated as an equal regardless of age... you're sadly ruining that ideal for yourself...

You're an ignoramus and need to do some growing up in this world before you try and question or second guess what I was or wasnt trying to say...

and, just for the sake of argument, I'm not British and I'm not American... there's another one for you to sit and pull apart...

Every nation who releases footage to the media does it draw attention away from the those operations that failed miserably, hitting the wrong targets, killing innocents or just hitting your own men... it will always happen, in the same way governments use bad news (like 9/11) to 'bury' their own bad news...

using and argument of 'look at this officially released video of the targets being hit and no colateral damage' is absurd... I was trying to awaken your mind to thinking outside of the box, to try and erase this bizarre feeling you instill inside yourself that the IDF/IAF are infalible and never miss, and try and make yourself answer the question of why they never release a video that shows an operation that went wrong...

welcome to the real world, although on your past performance here, I doubt you'll choose to accept it.

Please, don't change your opinion about age just because one person isn't acting according to your standards. Dragging age into this is just stupid. You know just as well as me that there are people younger than you (and maybe even me) that are better at debating than we do, and also have much more well-thought opinions than ours. And you know just as well that there are plenty of people in an age considered 'mature' but is still acting like bloody fourteen-year olds.

Please, re-read your post and re-think.

[scary 0]

The moral of the story is don't fire on someone and expect them not to fire back.

That go to both sides - Israel & Hizballah.

They started it, the whole region was quite - we didnt bomb anyone {in Lebanon}, and suddenly they attacked. what do they think that we don't strike back ?

Absolutely correct, that does apply to both sides. However, Hizbullah didn't just expect Israel to fire back, they wanted Israel to fire back. By over-reacting, Israel has played right into Hizbullah's hands.

When you say 'they started it', to whom do you refer? It was Hizbullah that started it when they killed and captured IDF personnel, yet it is Lebanon and the Lebanese that are the target of Israeli reprisals.

I think everyone here agrees that the killing of 8 soldiers and kidnapping of 2 others was a bad thing. I believe most Lebanese think the same. Israel could have considered Hizbullah's demands, as it has done before, or, better still, could have tried a co-operative response with the Lebanese government. The latter would have done wonders for international relations in the Middle East, and would have earned Israel a lot of support.

Instead, Israel started bombing Lebanon, losing it support and setting international relations in the Middle East back decades.

There is no difference between Israel's attacks and Hizbullah's subsequent rocket attacks. Israel started with the moral high ground and chose to abandon it in favour of some warped ideal of revenge.

[Messiah 2]

dmakatra, I think you need to re-read my post my friend... I have no intention of changing my opinion on those younger than me (I'm not all too old myself, though i do feel it), and you're very correct that many, if not most, could and would debate a point to a greater skill than I can ever imagine...

Quote[/b] ]I've long defended that age has no bearing on ones maturity or credibility in any argument and everyone should be treated as an equal regardless of age... you're sadly ruining that ideal for yourself...

Perhaps it wasnt clear, and now i re-read it myself, I meant that I've always defended that ones age has no bearing on whether they're inteligent, diligent and good/bad at debating, nor like others do I use it as a guage to measure their life experience... my final line, which is what possibly threw you off, was meant that that Ideal i've followed was begining to wear off with mp_Phoenix on a personal level, not as a whole.

Quote[/b] ]Israel started with the moral high ground and chose to abandon it in favour of some warped ideal of revenge.

Couldnt have summed it up better

[dmakatra 1]

I understand, good to have that settled.

[Nemesis6 0]

Given that Hamas was just last week ready to implicitly recognize Israel

That is a lie. The prisoners' document to which you are by all likelyhood refering to says NO. SUCH. THING. It is a lie, and Hamas has themselves said that they will not sign any document that recognizes Israel in any way whatsoever.

Now, here's a message for all people who have echoed the word "disproportionate" this whole time - http://tuatara.blogmatrix.com/2006/07.16/0000/SNN53.mp3

Just listen to it. You don't have to listen to it all, just start at 4 minutes and 30 seconds. There's a little wisdom that you should take in when it comes to things being "disproportionate". It probably won't change your mind, but It'll likely change your point of view on the matter.

But in summery: over 700 Katyushas, dozens of killed Israeli civilians, killed Israeli soldiers and several kidnapped, and a direct act of war by Hizballah who's represented and supported by, for example, the chief of the Lebanese army.... what is this? No, it can't be disproportionate, because that's what the actions of Israel are, right?

And by the way, the Iranians are helping Hizballah with men and equipment, as they have historically done for a long time before this.

[Bernadotte 0]

But in summery: over 700 Katyushas, dozens of killed Israeli civilians, killed Israeli soldiers...

Really?  "Dozens of killed Israeli civilians"??  Is it that many?  Do you have an exact figure for that?

And by the way, the Iranians are helping Hizballah with men and equipment, as they have historically done for a long time before this.

During the height of the IRA's bombing campaigns you can be sure that they were more comfortable in the Republic of Ireland than Hezbollah has been in Lebanon these past few years.  So, why do you suppose the RAF didn't bomb power plants around Dublin everytime another IRA bomb went off in London?

[JGreyNemo 0]

There is no solution, the most you could ask for is an uneasy ceasefire (with the occasional odd angry shot between nations). There never will be a solution as long as people refuse to consider that people need to start making concessions rather than ultimatums.

If Israel continues bombing, Lebanon is fubar. But diplomacy will be dead forever. Israel will also be fubar internationally and many countries will pull support - not all, but a large number of countries. And once Iran and Syria is finally pushed into the conflict (And if things keep going this way, it will.) it will be a goddam bloodbath on both sides because moderate Muslims will feel the need to drop what they're doing and kill Jews. And moderate Jews will drop what they're doing and kill Muslims.

So blow each other up already.

And make sure you all kill as many of your stupid kind as possible.

The rest of the world is quite happy to watch you all destroy each other for the sake of revenge, religion and other things that sane people realise - aren't worth killing for. We'll go back to our beds after watching your folly on TV, while you idiots are still lobbing missiles, bombs, bullets and grenades at each other.

Just keep your goddam fanatic religious mess be it extremist Jews, Muslims or Christians alike, out of my country, out of any country that believes everyone can co-exist peacefully without the need for petty walls, borders and wars.

Religious us and them doesn't work any more.

Evolve or die you stupid fuckers.

[Jinef 2]

If we want to compare this to the Northern Ireland troubles then maybe the Pro-Israelis on this thread can comment on this:

Would it be justifiable if the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force carried out a bombing campaign on New York City in order to discourage financial aid to the Irish Republican Army?

Surely the United States of America would have no right to retaliate because the United Kingdom is targeting terrorism and refused to persue the terrorist's funding themselves.

Does this sound completely fucking insane?

This could never occur because the United States has the military power to deter any such unjust actions. Lebanon has no such military power, only diplomacy. Israel is not doing this because it is right. They are doing this because they can.

[Jinef 2]

JGreyNemo -

Hurrah for common sense and simple speaking

I fully endorse your sentiments.

[-Grenadier- 0]

I really think Israel has blown it here.

Although this big offensive is probably cathartic, I think it's an indulgence that will come back to bite Israel hard. Even if Israel were to completely decimate its enemies into submission, which won't happen, the Muslims in the area would still hate Israel and would still make it their lives' goal to destroy it the first chance they had.

Currently (maybe always), every nation seems to have one strategy towards dealing with nations they perceive as threats: force them to do what they're told. I really don't think this is the best approach. Nobody will like you if you impose your will, no matter how overwhelming your military is. And when people don't like each other, there is the source of trouble.

It's too late now, but I think Israel best option to win hearts and minds would have been to turn the other cheek and officially halt retaliatory strikes. Open diplomatic talks without demanding things or issuing ultimatums. Show a little humility. World opinion would shift towards Israel if Palestinians and other groups continued unprovoked attacks.

Unfortunately, as long as everyone's strategy is "attack the enemy until their will is broken" (note: never happens) there will be fighting.

[mp_phonix 0]

btw, the neighberhood that we bombed in beirut was the main Hizballah neigberhood, almost everybody there was a hizballah supporterd - You should have seen the videos of them going to the streets, throwing candys, shooting in the air when they heard about the two kidhaaped soldiers.

Israel dropped leafets before everybombing telling that this area is going to be bombed, It's not like suddnly "Boom" their dead and not knowing it, I mean they know that the are is going to be bombed.

Not that it's ok, but we did warned them.

[Donnervogel 0]

Given that Hamas was just last week ready to implicitly recognize Israel

That is a lie. The prisoners' document to which you are by all likelyhood refering to says NO. SUCH. THING. It is a lie, and Hamas has themselves said that they will not sign any document that recognizes Israel in any way whatsoever.

Ignoring facts won't help you and it also won't really make you a serious partner for discussion. Besides nobody really said that they will do it but it was the first time there were ever talking about something like it and considering their internal instabillity as a consequence of the frozen funding by the UN, EU and other organisations for the palestinian authority, some parts among the political arm of Hamas were probably ready to implicitly recognise them. Of course not everyone wanted this so this lead to a very confusing situation where -depending on what source it was reported - some claimed hamas will implicitly recognise Israel and some claimed Hamas will never do it (as it is part of the Hamas Charter to destroy "the Zionists"). Anyway that thing didn't tell us they wanted to accept Israel for sure. But it showed us that there was an obvious discrepancy isnide the Hamas and Fatah about this issue. The kidnapping probably was an action among the hamas military wing hardliners to torpedo any attempt of such a recognition as - obviously - it would be very controversial among the palestinians. As you can see they more than succeeded.

You can't expect any huge turnaround from one day to another in the middle east conflicts anyway. That's why diplomatic sensitivity is needed in this matter but none of the parties directly involved shows any of it.

Quote[/b] ]Now, here's a message for all people who have echoed the word "disproportionate" this whole time - ]http://tuatara.blogmatrix.com/2006/07.16/0000/SNN53.mp3

What eyes should that open. The Hamas and Palestinian terrorists and Hesbollah are for a long time already critisised by the the USA, the EU and other organisations and everyone want them to lay down their terrorist activities. Unlike you however the rest of the world makes a distinction between Palestinians and terrorists. Also between the Hamas government and their military wings (like Al-Quassam brigades). You know the world is not only two sided and by seeing it that way no conflict can ever be resolved. The same disticntion goes for Lebanese and Hesbollah and Hesbollah and Al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya.

The background is that there can only be diplomacy if there is a recognised government in those countries. That's why EU and USA do not totally reject the Hamas and Hisbollah as they represent large parts of their countries population and are not exclusively terrorist organisations. They also build a lot of social and civillian infrastructure in their territories. However this does not change the fact that they support terrorism and have their own terrorist wings and this needs to be stopped. As a consequence the EU for example is calling on Hamas to stop the violence and recognise Israel in order to recieve the funding they so deperatly need. The hope is that - as we have seen with that "recognition" story - there could be voices inside hamas that want to make it less radical in order to get international support and by that hamas could slowly get forced to reform its charters and by that way allow diplomacy with israel again.

They ask what is disproportionate in that Audio file. Disporportionate is to bomb the lebanese civillian Infrastructure and kill many more Lebanese and foreign nationals that have nothing to do with the recent crisis. Disprportianate is also to attack Haifa and other Israeli cities killing Israeli civilians that also aren't directly involved into the crisis.

They ask why nobody calls the Hisbollah and Palestinians disporoportinate. The answer is they all do. Maybe not with those words but those organisations get so much critisized by all sides that people probably don't notice anymore. The difference is that Israel recently gets critisised much more. And instead of pulling the "everybody hates Israel" card all the time they could simply look at themselfs and notice that their continued ignorance towards human rights and international law and their intentional attack on civillian infrastructure and their careless approach to civilian casualties are not what is expected from a democratic and modern nation. Yes that's right. A democratic nation has higher standarts to fulfill than terrorists. That's what is distinguishing the two and that's what gave Israel more sympathy than the terrorists in the past. But they're using up their sympathy stock rapidly.

Quote[/b] ]But in summery: over 700 Katyushas, dozens of killed Israeli civilians, killed Israeli soldiers and several kidnapped, and a direct act of war by Hizballah who's represented and supported by, for example, the chief of the Lebanese army what is this? No, it can't be disproportionate, because that's what the actions of Israel are, right?

The problem with this figure is that Israel is comitting "acts of war" aswell. The Hesbollah attacked Israel first, that is right. But Israel attacked Lebanon as a whole in return (that is what is most disproportionate). And Israel killed more unvolved civillians than the Hesbollah did in this crisis and the Lebanese Army Chief is a christian. I really doubt he supports Hesbollah. Care to give me a source? If you mean the Lebanese Army reacting to Israeli incursion on their land and airspace. Well that's their very right. What do you expect? Invade a country and their army is just gonna sit and watch the fun? Something in your mind must be twisted.

Quote[/b] ]And by the way, the Iranians are helping Hizballah with men and equipment, as they have historically done for a long time before this.

Of course. But what is your point? Israel has been providing Lebanese christians with weapons and support for a long time aswell. Syria was part of the game too. All this is what makes that country such a mess.

[Bernadotte 0]

Israel dropped leafets before everybombing telling that this area is going to be bombed...

Why would you do that unless it was specifically to target those too young, old or handicapped to get out of the way?  Or perhaps you believe it's ok to target civilians who can't read.

And before you try reminding me that they support Hezbollah let me ask you, do you agree with the politics of everyone in your Israeli neighbourhood?  No?  Then why isn't it a little bit possible that some people who died in that Beirut neighbourhood did not support Hezbollah?

To be honest, I prefer it when the IDF blames civilian casualties on targetting errors instead of the target's political affiliation.  Certainly, the IDF may be lying about that, but at least they make some attempt to distance Israel's motives and behaviour from those of the terrorists.

[mp_phonix 0]

That neighberhood is considerd a Hizballah stronghold. It also riddeld with their bunkers. {again I do not support killing civillians ==>> stop bringing the quote that I said the I want Gaza burned, I explained that I said it because I was angry after I heard the Hizballah attacked us {killed 8, kidnhaped 2}

[Bernadotte 0]

The rest of the world is quite happy to watch you all destroy each other for the sake of revenge, religion and other things that sane people realise - aren't worth killing for.

Yes indeed, spend another 4 generations in refugee camps under brutal occupation wondering who is now enjoying the house and property taken from you and your family.  Watch your children killed while playing football or walking to school.  Rebuild your overcrowded 2-room home each time it's demolished.  Replant your thousand year old olive groves that got separated from your village by a wall.

Live without the electricity you would have needed to power the radio that might have told you why the power plant was bombed.  Live without knowing how long the water will last and if you will have enough to extinguish the flames after the next gunship attack.  Sleep through another night of sonic boom fly overs knowing that there are no more windows left to shatter in your home.  Surrender is not an option because there's nobody to surrender to, even if you give up on all those claims that the UN made on your behalf before you were even born.

No job, no money, no education, no passport and the whole world seems to think you deserve it for being born a Palestinian.

And if you do dare to fight for a piece of justice or mere survival then you can at least be sure of one thing...

We'll go back to our beds after watching your folly on TV,  while you idiots are still lobbing missiles, bombs, bullets and grenades at each other.

...Watching your death on TV will not have cost people like JGreyNemo a good night's sleep because he's been convinced this is all about religion and other things that he would never fight for.

That neighberhood is considerd a Hizballah stronghold.

Oh really?  Since when does Israel drop warning leaflets on Hezbollah strongholds before attacking them??  

It also riddeld with their bunkers.

What Beirut neighbourhood is not riddled with bunkers?  The city has spent decades in a civil war, not to mention an earlier Israeli occupation.