The Middle East part 2

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]You really think Americas only concern in the area is oil?

Israel security is above all!

That's absurd. If there wasn't oil to be had in the region, they wouldn't have established a foothold in it to begin with. Stability in the region starts with your allies, and stability means laying the framework for opening up the oil market to the U.S, it's very simple logic when you cut the horseshit out.

(I still don't know how China would sit with the U.S "liberating" Iran if it ever came to that, I think things might get interesting)

Your simple logic looks like whoreshit from my view of the situation!  

Well that's nice, seeing as that you can't seem to provide a legitimate counter point to my statement, I would guess your only recourse is to respond to my legitimate observations with nonsensical profanity. That in itself does make sense though, seeing as that my point really does make more sense than your original claim.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Noone should have the mind to build or own any nuclear weapons. Why in the world would we want that?

"If you dis' me, ill blow up the planet". Its just plain insane.

[M4XSs 0]

Well that's nice, seeing as that you can't seem to provide a legitimate counter point to my statement, I would guess your only recourse is to respond to my legitimate observations with nonsensical profanity. That in itself does make sense though, seeing as that my point really does make more sense than your original claim.

Sorry if you toke my response as insult.

Your legitimate statement will make sense if you resort the United States priorities in the in that specific region.

[theavonlady 2]

One o the major problems of dealing with Iran is because its an Muslem Counter (I have nothing against muslems, dont get me wrong). Islam is not just a diffrent religion, its a different world.. They have a totally another concept about life, and death. They often fight for their religion (or by it's supervision [Alla U-Akbar]).It's like was in the Iran-Iraq war ! both sides declared their war "In the name of Allah". I think the next WW (means WW3) will be between the Islam country that declares Jihad (holy war) on the west. That could be Iran, and i think they will use Nukes.

I think this is rubbish. Sure Iran is pissing around alot, but i cant see they will nuke guys when/if they get Nuke Bombs.

Let's ask Mister Subtletease:

Quote[/b] ]Iran’s Ahmadinejad: West opposes our nukes to let Israel live on

Wed. 15 Mar 2006

Tehran, Iran, Mar. 15 – Iran’s radical President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Wednesday that the circumstances were ripe for the “collapse of the Zionist regime†and that the West was highlighting the Islamic Republic’s nuclear program in the world arena in order to “divert attention away from the issue of Palestineâ€.

“The regime occupying Qods (Jerusalem) was set up to create insecurity and confrontation in our region. If one day tranquillity came about, it would mean the death of this regimeâ€, Ahmadinejad said in the northern town of Ramyan during a speech broadcast live on state television.

“Our enemies on the one hand oppose our nation’s acquisition of nuclear energy and on the other hand want to divert the attention of other nations from the key issue of Palestine to give an opportunity to the Zionist regime to prolong its existenceâ€, he said.

“One of the main reasons why the big powers oppose Iran on the nuclear issue is for the sake of the Zionist regime, so as to let this regime live on. But they are unaware that not only will the Iranian nation continue in the path of obtaining nuclear energy till the end, it will not even for one instant divert its attention from the issue of Palestineâ€.

“The regime occupying Qods [israel] is the key to [Western] countries’ domination in Muslim lands, and with every blow at this occupying regime, it’s the pillars of the Global Arrogance (the West) that are targetedâ€.

[HotShot 0]

Hes not saying he wants to nuke Israel though in that article, all hes saying is that he thinks the West is just getting annoyed with Iran for having nukes to divert attention away, and that the only way Israel can survive is if there is turmoil in the middle east (not that he explains why that would be).

In any event, i reckon this is just the guy flexing political muscle.

Saying that, i realise Iran said it wants to destory Israel, but thats just political bullshit too. They know the consequences if they did nuke israel, and when it came to crunch time they would back off.

This however is from an iranian ruling cleric:

Quote[/b] ]If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world"

Which i guess shows that they dont give a shit about the consequences, but even with that statement, i still cant see that, if it came to the day where they had the possibility to press the button, Iran would give themselves a death scentance just to get at israel.

[Baphomet 0]

Well that's nice, seeing as that you can't seem to provide a legitimate counter point to my statement, I would guess your only recourse is to respond to my legitimate observations with nonsensical profanity. That in itself does make sense though, seeing as that my point really does make more sense than your original claim.

Sorry if you toke my response as insult.

Your legitimate statement will make sense if you resort the United States priorities in the in that specific region.

Perhaps you have trouble reading. I simply stated that you resorted to nonsensical profanity, there's a difference between that and personal attacks, as a response to my original counter point to your statement.

Priorities being what? Oh yeah, that's right. OIL.

You don't think the whole thing is just some altruistic deed spearheaded by some pro israel lobby do you? Granted the U.S government does some pretty wacky things, but that government is profit driven. When your economy is perpetually in debt, you must find new ways to sustain it, and cheaply. Israel is their foot in the door to the middle east so to speak.

Of course because israel is involved you're going to get a lot of ideological nonsense perpetrated by a few hangers-on and lobbyists of some type, but either way it's all riding on the back of the initiative to either pacify or forcibly expand into the middle east to open up the oil market.

You can talk mindless trash all you want, it's certainly not helping your argument however. I was sort of expecting at least some kind of reasonable response to it, but if that's all you can muster, it just lends credibility to my perspective.

Quote[/b] ]Which i guess shows that they dont give a shit about the consequences, but even with that statement, i still cant see that, if it came to the day where they had the possibility to press the button, Iran would give themselves a death scentance just to get at israel.

I think what they're wary of is the U.S meddling in Iranian politics, and since there are groups in the U.S that have absolutely nothing better to do than to promote that sort of thing, I would imagine their concerns are well founded.

Saying Iranians as a whole don't give a shit is about their well being or that of their country is as sensible as saying Kennedy didn't give a shit when he threatened a nuclear exchange with Russia over that whole Cuba thing... It's just their well being by their standards encompasses not having the U.S or israel interfering with them.

However I think there is a disparity between those who harbor a legitimate concern for some sort of meddling on behalf of the U.S or israel, and those who start spewing moronic religious vitriol about wiping Israel off the face of the planet. The U.S has similar wackjobs, only they have very little credibility or power, unless you're in possession three copies of the 21st chromosome. Anne Coulter anyone?

All the moronic religious vitriol aside, I think most Iranians dread the concept of having the U.S interfere with their country. To the point that they'd use a nuclear exchange as a point of deterrent. The problem is you get a lot of those overzealous ones in political office, like their president, who likes to indulge in a lot of dangerously provocative smack talk. Or worse promoting their own interference in local middle eastern affairs. The big problem is, it's the latter group that will give the U.S or Israel a half-assed excuse to actually interfere, thus pissing off the majority of moderate iranians who don't share those views.

[theavonlady 2]

Hes not saying he wants to nuke Israel though in that article, all hes saying is that he thinks the West is just getting annoyed with Iran for having nukes to divert attention away, and that the only way Israel can survive is if there is turmoil in the middle east (not that he explains why that would be).

I cannot argue with someone who wears rose colored reading glasses.

Quote[/b] ]

In any event, i reckon this is just the guy flexing political muscle.

"After everything that has been said about the German Chancellor today and in the past, I do feel that the House ought to recognize the difficulty for a man in that position to take back such emphatic declarations as he had already made amidst the enthusiastic cheers of his supporters, and to recognize that in consenting, even though it were only at the last moment, to discuss with the representatives of other Powers those things which he had declared he had already decided once for all, was a real and a substantial contribution on his part."

- Neville Chamberlain, 1938

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Afghan man faces death penalty for converting to christianity.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-03-18-voa7.cfm

And yet, they still complain about the Muhammed drawings... Jesus, im getting a bit tired by those damn Muslims.

Lets hope he won't get convicted. What do you guys think would happen if we sentenced a dane for converting to Islam? Whoa.

They are all eager to stop the freedom of speach concerning religion. But it's okay to kill people that don't have the same belief?

I know this is Afghanistan, but I don't see the Muslim world react on this. I guess they are more interested in the drawings. What a shock, lets hope none of them ever get their powers in nukes/bombs/rifles/slingshots.

[theavonlady 2]

What do you guys think would happen if we sentenced a dane for converting to Islam?

It might depend what he planned to do after converting.

Quote[/b] ]Islamic Group Spokesman Charged in Denmark

Monday March 20, 2006 4:46 PM

By CHRISTIAN WIENBERG

Associated Press Writer

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) - A radical Islamic group spokesman has been charged with threatening the government for distributing a leaflet urging Muslims to "eliminate"' rulers that prevent them from joining the Iraq insurgency, a Danish prosecutor said Monday.

The leaflets, from the Danish chapter of Hizb ut-Tahrir, called on Muslims to travel to Iraq to join the insurgents fighting coalition troops. They also urged Muslims to ``eliminate your rulers if they stand in your way'' - a phrase prosecutors interpret as a direct threat to the Danish government.

Denmark has 530 troops stationed in southern Iraq.

``We have now finished looking at the material and decided there are grounds to start formal charges,'' Deputy Regional Prosecutor Karen-Inger Bast told The Associated Press.

She said charges against Fadi Abdullatif, the spokesman of the Danish chapter of the group, were filed March 16.

Abdullatif also was charged with violating anti-racism laws for postings on the group's Web page encouraging the killings of Jews, Bast said.

Calls to Abdullatif's telephone were unanswered Monday, but he has previously said police and prosecutors are ``twisting the meaning'' of the leaflets, which were passed out in 2004.

In 2003, he was given a 60-day suspended jail sentence for another Internet posting that encouraged similar racist killings.

Hizb ut-Tahrir, founded half a century ago, wants to peacefully establish a Muslim state across the Middle East operating under religious laws in the Quran. It preaches that Western-style democracy is unacceptable.

The group has been outlawed by some countries amid fears its recruits could include terrorists.

Australia's government said two weeks ago it was investigating the activities of the Australian chapter of Hizb ut-Tahrir for distributing leaflets urging Muslims to rise up against coalition troops in Iraq.

[JdB 151]

Well, it wouldn't be very good for the relationship between Afghanistan and the free (more or less) world - the US, which can't afford to back out.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Swedish foreign minister quits after Prophet cartoons row

Tuesday March 21, 12:20 PM

STOCKHOLM (AFP) - Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds resigned amid allegations that she lied about her involvement in shutting down a website that had posted satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

.............<SNIP>..................

[iNeo 0]

BBC:

Quote[/b] ]Sweden FM quits over cartoon row

Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds has resigned in a row related to cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

She has been strongly criticised in the press after the foreign ministry ordered the website of a far-right party to be shut down.

[...]

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

What do you guys think would happen if we sentenced a dane for converting to Islam?

It might depend what he planned to do after converting.

Quote[/b] ]Islamic Group Spokesman Charged in Denmark

Monday March 20, 2006 4:46 PM

By CHRISTIAN WIENBERG

Associated Press Writer

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) - A radical Islamic group spokesman has been charged with threatening the government for distributing a leaflet urging Muslims to "eliminate"' rulers that prevent them from joining the Iraq insurgency, a Danish prosecutor said Monday.

The leaflets, from the Danish chapter of Hizb ut-Tahrir, called on Muslims to travel to Iraq to join the insurgents fighting coalition troops. They also urged Muslims to ``eliminate your rulers if they stand in your way'' - a phrase prosecutors interpret as a direct threat to the Danish government.

Denmark has 530 troops stationed in southern Iraq.

``We have now finished looking at the material and decided there are grounds to start formal charges,'' Deputy Regional Prosecutor Karen-Inger Bast told The Associated Press.

She said charges against Fadi Abdullatif, the spokesman of the Danish chapter of the group, were filed March 16.

Abdullatif also was charged with violating anti-racism laws for postings on the group's Web page encouraging the killings of Jews, Bast said.

Calls to Abdullatif's telephone were unanswered Monday, but he has previously said police and prosecutors are ``twisting the meaning'' of the leaflets, which were passed out in 2004.

In 2003, he was given a 60-day suspended jail sentence for another Internet posting that encouraged similar racist killings.

Hizb ut-Tahrir, founded half a century ago, wants to peacefully establish a Muslim state across the Middle East operating under religious laws in the Quran. It preaches that Western-style democracy is unacceptable.

The group has been outlawed by some countries amid fears its recruits could include terrorists.

Australia's government said two weeks ago it was investigating the activities of the Australian chapter of Hizb ut-Tahrir for distributing leaflets urging Muslims to rise up against coalition troops in Iraq.

Well, thats two totally different things. Im not sure I get your point?

[Grim_Fandango 0]

Good post Grim_Fandango. I guess people are jumping on the band wagon just as much when they put a Danish flag in their signature as those that are jumping around on a burning one in the street. In fact for the former it could be said more so than the latter, because at least when they're jumping around on a flag they're putting their hearts into it instead of just a 1 minute picture posting job.

People posting pictures online will happen no matter what. What annoys me is that Denmark is going to be used in campaigns that have nothing to do with what we stand for. In the aforementioned affair concerning the now former Swedish foreign minister, I saw a clip on the news of this Swedish nationalist front printing fliers supporting Denmark. I get pretty pissed off when I see our flag exploited like that by groups who care nothing for their country, except to use it as an excuse or justification for their biggotry.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I long to get back to the days when Denmark was the nice little country that didn't bother anyone, and reaped the benefits of that with great diplomatic and business connections. Although everybody thought we were dutch, or the capital of Ikea.

Sadly the rise of the nationalist party on behalf of the new conservative government in 2001 put a stop to that. Suddenly the rhetoric changed, and instead of working on integration as a common objective between Danes and immigrants alike, it became a matter of us vs. them instead. Zero tolerance for any sort of differences, they eat pork, they drink and fuck strangers, or they can go back to derka derkastan, because surely they're bad people for differing. Today the public debate is basicly just about how useless or scary immigrants are, they're criminalized as a whole and it's like everybody's playing along without stopping and thinking, again, due in large part to the media. Of course our Slick Rick Prime Minister is putting on the "Oh dear do I ever love muslims, I wish I could cuddle them all" face, but his parliamentary backing says otherwise, and as a result, so does his policy.

So as I think you should be able to see already, the matter is a lot more nuanced and complicated than just "with us or against us" and has to do with a long history of danish policies, and moods within the public.

In example everybody applauds the jewish immigration that happened in the early 1900s where we sheltered a lot of them after the massive pogroms in Eastern Europe and Russia. They weren't integrated when they came here. They lived after jewish customs and traditions in their own little part of Copenhagen, and didn't see it as much else than yet another stop on the way to Israel, should it ever be created, but the difference is that noone feared the jews back then. And of course the jews went on to become completely assimilated within one or two generations, and one might even say that the jews added a lot to danish self understanding, given that they became a symbol of the resistance when we fought against the nazis during the 2nd World War. Though the fighting in Denmark wasn't exactly epic, it's a big part of our national understanding of ourselves as a people. I don't see why muslims shouldn't be given the same chance, but it all keeps going back to these scary images that are perpetuated by the primitive right. It's a lot easier to fuck up progress with boogey men like the radical muslims we unfortunately also shelter (in fact due to the same laws and values regarding freedom of speech and oppinion that they now combat) than it is to promote it by giving the average joe muslim a viable opportunity in society.

Given the complex nature of these circumstances within our society, I think it's pretty grotesque that people try to fit the situation into little slogans who do nothing but take the eye off the real issues. Wether those slogans support us (even though the people don't know us) or they defame us (by people equally ignorant) they're equally annoying and ignorant to me.

If there ever is a fight for our values, we'll be sure to fight it ourselves. If you want to support Denmark, read up on our history and society first so you know what you're supporting, and if you want to hate us, do the same.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Good post Grim_Fandango. I guess people are jumping on the band wagon just as much when they put a Danish flag in their signature as those that are jumping around on a burning one in the street. In fact for the former it could be said more so than the latter, because at least when they're jumping around on a flag they're putting their hearts into it instead of just a 1 minute picture posting job.

People posting pictures online will happen no matter what. What annoys me is that Denmark is going to be used in campaigns that have nothing to do with what we stand for. In the aforementioned affair concerning the now former Swedish foreign minister, I saw a clip on the news of this Swedish nationalist front printing fliers supporting Denmark. I get pretty pissed off when I see our flag exploited like that by groups who care nothing for their country, except to use it as an excuse or justification for their biggotry.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I long to get back to the days when Denmark was the nice little country that didn't bother anyone, and reaped the benefits of that with great diplomatic and business connections. Although everybody thought we were dutch, or the capital of Ikea.

Sadly the rise of the nationalist party on behalf of the new conservative government in 2001 put a stop to that. Suddenly the rhetoric changed, and instead of working on integration as a common objective between Danes and immigrants alike, it became a matter of us vs. them instead. Zero tolerance for any sort of differences, they eat pork, they drink and fuck strangers, or they can go back to derka derkastan, because surely they're bad people for differing. Today the public debate is basicly just about how useless or scary immigrants are, they're criminalized as a whole and it's like everybody's playing along without stopping and thinking, again, due in large part to the media. Of course our Slick Rick Prime Minister is putting on the "Oh dear do I ever love muslims, I wish I could cuddle them all" face, but his parliamentary backing says otherwise, and as a result, so does his policy.

So as I think you should be able to see already, the matter is a lot more nuanced and complicated than just "with us or against us" and has to do with a long history of danish policies, and moods within the public.

In example everybody applauds the jewish immigration that happened in the early 1900s where we sheltered a lot of them after the massive pogroms in Eastern Europe and Russia. They weren't integrated when they came here. They lived after jewish customs and traditions in their own little part of Copenhagen, and didn't see it as much else than yet another stop on the way to Israel, should it ever be created, but the difference is that noone feared the jews back then. And of course the jews went on to become completely assimilated within one or two generations, and one might even say that the jews added a lot to danish self understanding, given that they became a symbol of the resistance when we fought against the nazis during the 2nd World War. Though the fighting in Denmark wasn't exactly epic, it's a big part of our national understanding of ourselves as a people. I don't see why muslims shouldn't be given the same chance, but it all keeps going back to these scary images that are perpetuated by the primitive right. It's a lot easier to fuck up progress with boogey men like the radical muslims we unfortunately also shelter (in fact due to the same laws and values regarding freedom of speech and oppinion that they now combat) than it is to promote it by giving the average joe muslim a viable opportunity in society.

Given the complex nature of these circumstances within our society, I think it's pretty grotesque that people try to fit the situation into little slogans who do nothing but take the eye off the real issues. Wether those slogans support us (even though the people don't know us) or they defame us (by people equally ignorant) they're equally annoying and ignorant to me.

If there ever is a fight for our values, we'll be sure to fight it ourselves. If you want to support Denmark, read up on our history and society first so you know what you're supporting, and if you want to hate us, do the same.

Well said, Fandango.

Although I don't totally agree with you. It is sad, that people who doesn't really know denmark is judgin us. Both supporters and dislikers.

The hype about "A new Denmark, Denmark has changed", isnt imho totally qualified.

To be honest, I haven't seen much difference. And im quite sure that in a couple of years, people will have forgotten about this. Just like with any other incident in other countries. Its just the first time we are in the spotlight.

Scandinavia have allways been looked at, as an immigration-friendly country... And it still is! Despite numerious efforts, Scandinavia is still represented with three countries in top 5 of the western world top refugee/resident list (And Denmark is one of those three).

To sum it all up. Its not really a big deal. We will still be able to sell our milk downthere in a couple of years. We dont see any differences. Sure, we have gotten a few threats on our head by various terrorist groups. But we had those in the first place anyway. Now its just cartoons and not troops in Iraq. We still dont agree with Islam leaders all over the world. Actually, we have come closer to a debate, which is IMHO a thousind times better than killing each other as we did before.

IMHO, the drawings were a neccessary and good thing. Its great with debate. Sure, its a little overreactive that the people downthere burn flags, embassys and even kill each other. But let them do it.... If that turns them on. They need to get it out of their system, before they can have a good debate in a civilised matter. This is probably also a good way to show them how democrazy works. Imagine if THEY could speak whatever they felt?

[EiZei 0]

Scandinavia have allways been looked at, as an immigration-friendly country... And it still is! Despite numerious efforts, Scandinavia is still represented with three countries in top 5 of the western world top refugee/resident list (And Denmark is one of those three).

I really can't back this up with hard data but I think scandinavian countries are pretty strict when it comes to immigration per capita. Feel free to correct me.

Quote[/b] ]

This is probably also a good way to show them how democrazy works. Imagine if THEY could speak whatever they felt?

If democracy is about having mobs turning embassy districts into downtown Mogadishu i'd say thats pretty bad PR for it.

And when it comes to saying whatever they want.. well, do'nt think that crowd would have tolerated too many arguments in defence of JP.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Democracy is about having the right to demonstrate and say your oppinion no matter if your purpose is pro-government or against it.

That they are destroying embassys etc. is just a result of them being undermined by their own government.

Its like having your first icecrem at spring-time... Its VERY good

[theavonlady 2]

That they are destroying embassys etc. is just a result of them being undermined by their own government.

Let me get this straight.

They burn down other government's embassies because they are democratically deprived by their own governments? And they do this in response to thosed other democratic governments granting freedom of expression to their own citizens in matters that these embassy burners view as blasphemous. Yet they're truly protesting against their own dictatorial regimes.

Is that what you meant?

Really?

Do ya think so?

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

That they are destroying embassys etc. is just a result of them being undermined by their own government.

Let me get this straight.

They burn down other government's embassies because they are democratically deprived by their own governments? And they do this in response to thosed other democratic governments granting freedom of expression to their own citizens in matters that these embassy burners view as blasphemous. Yet they're truly protesting against their own dictatorial regimes.

Is that what you meant?

Really?

Do ya think so?

Yep

The drawings are simply the tool that makes them go on the street (since their own government approve).

[Grim_Fandango 0]

You're probably right about the long term effects. In 10 years noone will remember a stupid cartoon, but they probably will be drawing paralels to this ridiculous crisis for many years to come whenever there's an issue between the middle east and the western world.

It's just sad that a Dane has to watch his or her step nowadays. Our nationality, like you pointed out, used to be equal to tolerance of all people, and served more or less like a diplomatic pass in even the most troubled spots. Now we need to watch our backs, at least for the time being.

I don't think the drawings were neccesary as such. I think they were warranted as a debatable item, but I also think that one artist did stretch the relevance of the cartoon, especially considering the exposed position of muslims today. The objective, mind you, wasn't to mock anyone, it was just to show that "They might not want him pictured, but that's not how we work here". But indeed, there's no doubt about the right to print whatever you want, but I think more Danes should've made it more clear that they meant no harm instead of warping the issue to be a matter of "for or against freedom of speech". It wasn't about that to me, it was for or against a bunch of cartoons that hurt a lot of people.

I'm pretty sure that with the prime minister being the only one heard, we look like a bunch of bigots refusing to apologize for it. Remember, arab logics and subjectiveness is very square compared to the standards of diversity and objectiveness we set for ourselves. This is just the way the world works.

EiZei, our countries are very relaxed about immigration. Denmark has tightened the laws substantially due to the influence of the nationalist party, but as far as I know, Norway and Sweden are still taking in lots of immigrants and treating them great. We put all our social services available to anyone who comes here, and our social services are without a doubt among the most beneficiary in the world, so although I'm not happy with the mood of the people, we do take good care of any human being that comes here.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

You're probably right about the long term effects. In 10 years noone will remember a stupid cartoon, but they probably will be drawing paralels to this ridiculous crisis for many years to come whenever there's an issue between the middle east and the western world.

It's just sad that a Dane has to watch his or her step nowadays. Our nationality, like you pointed out, used to be equal to tolerance of all people, and served more or less like a diplomatic pass in even the most troubled spots. Now we need to watch our backs, at least for the time being.

I don't think the drawings were neccesary as such. I think they were warranted as a debatable item, but I also think that one artist did stretch the relevance of the cartoon, especially considering the exposed position of muslims today. The objective, mind you, wasn't to mock anyone, it was just to show that "They might not want him pictured, but that's not how we work here". But indeed, there's no doubt about the right to print whatever you want, but I think more Danes should've made it more clear that they meant no harm instead of warping the issue to be a matter of "for or against freedom of speech". It wasn't about that to me, it was for or against a bunch of cartoons that hurt a lot of people.

I'm pretty sure that with the prime minister being the only one heard, we look like a bunch of bigots refusing to apologize for it. Remember, arab logics and subjectiveness is very square compared to the standards of diversity and objectiveness we set for ourselves. This is just the way the world works.

EiZei, our countries are very relaxed about immigration. Denmark has tightened the laws substantially due to the influence of the nationalist party, but as far as I know, Norway and Sweden are still taking in lots of immigrants and treating them great. We put all our social services available to anyone who comes here, and our social services are without a doubt among the most beneficiary in the world, so although I'm not happy with the mood of the people, we do take good care of any human being that comes here.

What I meant was not that the cartoons were nessecary, but the debate between the western world and the muslim countries were. Even though some of the cartoons was infact dumb, I can think of many other much worse ways that could have happend.

Its good that some of the gas in the balloon came out now, and not in a couple of years.

[Grim_Fandango 0]

You're probably right about the long term effects. In 10 years noone will remember a stupid cartoon, but they probably will be drawing paralels to this ridiculous crisis for many years to come whenever there's an issue between the middle east and the western world.

It's just sad that a Dane has to watch his or her step nowadays. Our nationality, like you pointed out, used to be equal to tolerance of all people, and served more or less like a diplomatic pass in even the most troubled spots. Now we need to watch our backs, at least for the time being.

I don't think the drawings were neccesary as such. I think they were warranted as a debatable item, but I also think that one artist did stretch the relevance of the cartoon, especially considering the exposed position of muslims today. The objective, mind you, wasn't to mock anyone, it was just to show that "They might not want him pictured, but that's not how we work here". But indeed, there's no doubt about the right to print whatever you want, but I think more Danes should've made it more clear that they meant no harm instead of warping the issue to be a matter of "for or against  freedom of speech". It wasn't about that to me, it was for or against a bunch of cartoons that hurt a lot of people.

I'm pretty sure that with the prime minister being the only one heard, we look like a bunch of bigots refusing to apologize for it. Remember, arab logics and subjectiveness is very square compared to the standards of diversity and objectiveness we set for ourselves. This is just the way the world works.

EiZei, our countries are very relaxed about immigration. Denmark has tightened the laws substantially due to the influence of the nationalist party, but as far as I know, Norway and Sweden are still taking in lots of immigrants and treating them great. We put all our social services available to anyone who comes here, and our social services are without a doubt among the most beneficiary in the world, so although I'm not happy with the mood of the people, we do take good care of any human being that comes here.

What I meant was not that the cartoons were nessecary, but the debate between the western world and the muslim countries were. Even though some of the cartoons was infact dumb, I can think of many other much worse ways that could have happend.

Its good that some of the gas in the balloon came out now, and not in a couple of years.

I don't see how anything has been accomplished though. This hasn't earnt any goodwill or opened up any sort of negotiating possibilities that will bring our two worlds closer to eachother, it's just another conflict in a long line of conflicts between the west and the middle-east.

And I think the worst is yet to come. Palestine/Israel and Iraq (Afghanistan would probably be stretching it, they have a new set of murderers keeping a measure of order) are still unresolved matters that in one way or another involves the west.

I'm definitely not optimistic about solutions to those problems.

And I don't get why people continue to think that when arabs call for regime change, it means they're calling for democracy. What is a democracy worth if people are still being slaughtered in the street, and chaos is pretty much the order of the day? If anything, democracies work because they satisfy a demand of the people, and the demands in Iraq at the moment are very different.

I saw someone on CNN make a brilliant comment the other day about how to develop a society into a democracy;

"Get an economy, get a middleclass, get a democracy, in that order"

[Stendac 0]

"Get an economy, get a middleclass, get a democracy, in that order"

Well said.

Once everyone has a job they'll be too busy to have an insurgency.  But it's a bit like trying to build sandcastles when the other kids want to knock them down.

The Dutch should talk to France. They're getting along swimmingly with their Muslim immigrants. Schattenfreude.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Did anyone see that French documentary about the Muhammed Crisis? I sadly don't know the name of it

It brings out some trueth about some of the muslim community in Denmark (And in rest of europe).

[JdB 151]

The Dutch should talk to France. They're getting along swimmingly with their Muslim immigrants. Schattenfreude.

Haha, yeah it may look like that to foreigners, but the only general difference with France is that the immigrants there have already started large riots, which hasn't yet happened here, but might very well happen in the not to distant future.

Unlike most people think, Holland is not the immigrant loving country everyone thinks it is...but that should be in the European Politics thread, not in the ME thread.

Oh and every country has an economy, some or just better then others