The Middle East part 2

[EiZei 0]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/libdems/story/0,9061,1129505,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Lib Dem MP: Why I would consider being a suicide bomber

Nicholas Watt, political correspondent

Friday January 23, 2004

The Guardian

Charles Kennedy was last night considering whether to sack a frontbencher who said that she would think of becoming a suicide bomber if she lived in the Palestinian territories.

Jenny Tonge was summoned to explain her comments to the Liberal Democrat chief whip after telling a Westminster rally that the daily "killings and the bulldozings and all the other horrible things" in the occupied territories made her understand why people became suicide bombers.

Dr Tonge, the spokeswoman on children, told a meeting of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign on Wednesday: "This particular brand of terrorism, the suicide bomber, is truly born out of desperation.

"Many many people criticise, many many people say it is just another form of terrorism, but I can understand and I am a fairly emotional person and I am a mother and a grand mother, I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say."

Not excatly the best way to improve your job security these days.

[Bernadotte 0]

Palenstine is literally screwed. They should just stop all resistance. As an official government, as citizens, all resistance whatsoever.

To do what? To go where? Intergrate into Israeli society? I doubt that will work.

I also doubt it would work, but only because Israel would not tolerate it.

Did you know that Israel hires many Palestinians to build their settlements in the occupied territories?

Did you know that Israel hires many Palestinians to construct the security fence?

Most Palestinians don't actually give a shit about politics or the colour of their passports.  Most just want to live in peace, have a steady income, raise a family and be happy without being displaced from where they've lived for generations.  If Israel wasn't obsessed with having a Jewish majority within its borders then the conflict would have ended ages ago as so many other conflicts have and the word Palestinian would have been loooooong forgotten.

[Pathy 0]

hehe Ezei, she got sacked not so long ago (tonight some time)

[Pathy 0]

Most Palestinians don't actually give a shit about politics or the colour of their passports.  Most just want to live in peace, have a steady income, raise a family and be happy without being displaced from where they've lived for generations.  If Israel wasn't obsessed with having a Jewish majority within its borders then the conflict would have ended ages ago as so many other conflicts have and the word Palestinian would have been loooooong forgotten.

I think the vast majority of people world wide want to live in peace and raise a family. Unfortunately we tend to generalise people by thier nationality, religion, income/class, race as we see fit.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]Of course it's a guiding principle of zionism.

Kol Ha-kavod...

('nuff respect )

[Major Gripe 0]

hehe Ezei, she got sacked not so long ago (tonight some time)

Indeed

Link to story

Quote[/b] ]Tonge sacked for suicide bomber remarks

By Ben Hall, Political Correspondent

Published: January 23 2004 19:13 | Last Updated: January 23 2004 19:13

Charles Kennedy, the Liberal Democrat leader, has fired a member of his frontbench team who said she would consider becoming a suicide bomber if she were a Palestinian living under Israeli occupation.

Jenny Tonge was sacked from her post on Friday as spokeswoman for children after sparking outrage for telling a rally at Westminster on Wednesday that suicide bombers were motivated by desperation.

"Many, many people criticise," the MP for Richmond Park said. "Many, many people say it is just another form of terrorism, but I can understand and I am a fairly emotional person and I am a mother and a grandmother.

"I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say."

Ms Tonge, who was already set to stand down from her Westminster seat at the next election, said she did not regret her comments, but insisted that she did not condone terrorism, calling it "appalling and loathsome".

But Mr Kennedy moved swiftly to remove her from his team. "Her recent remarks about suicide bombers are completely unacceptable," he said. "They are not compatible with Liberal Democrat policies and principles. There can be no justification, under any circumstances, for taking innocent lives through terrorism."

A spokesman for the Israeli embassy said Ms Tonge's comments could "add to the atmosphere of incitement and hatred within Palestinian and Muslim societies".

He added: "For Dr Tonge, who is a physician and spokeswoman on children, to justify such murderous acts is deeply immoral."

Ms Tonge holds strong liberal views on a range of social and international themes.

While spokeswoman on international development, she opposed her party's support for US military action in Afghanistan, telling the Liberal Democrat conference that the Americans should "bomb them with aid". She is an outspoken MP even for a party that has often accommodated radical views and escaped tight control from the leader's office.

But the incident was a test for Mr Kennedy, who is keen to dispel his party's reputation as a home for eccentrics. He has beefed up his frontbench team in recent months in an attempt to give it a more rigorous image.

Lord Janner, a Labour vice-chair of the British-Israeli parliamentary group, said Mr Kennedy was right to sack Ms Tonge. "Her support for terrorist suicide bombers is appalling and unworthy of any member of our parliament."

Ding dong the witch is dead.......

[shinRaiden 0]

What about the Druze? How many occupy what senior positions in the israeli army? Aren't they also tasked with internal security as well? Why is that? (rhetorical)

What about the naturalized arab israeli's in the knesst, and those who can drive cars with yellow plates than green ones?Why would the israeli's be 'crazy' enough to let them into their own house?

What about the roman themed restaurant on the cardo in the old city and it's owners - jewish israeli and a muslim palestinian? What about the similar arrangement at the restauant in Haifa that got cratered a month or two ago? How about the sherut taxi buses that are cheaper and way faster and more fun than any old egged bus? Whats the status report on Arafat's casino on the north sore of the dead sea avon, and who's paying for it, and who gets paid out of it?

[Bernadotte 0]

What about the Druze? How many occupy what senior positions in the israeli army? Aren't they also tasked with internal security as well? Why is that? (rhetorical)

What about the naturalized arab israeli's in the knesst, and those who can drive cars with yellow plates than green ones?Why would the israeli's be 'crazy' enough to let them into their own house?

Are you a racist?  (rhetorical)

[WhoCares 0]

That's not possible, because after the war there would be only those palestinians left that accept the israeli terms.

How do you figure?  What would have happened to the peaceful people after the war who did not accept Israel's terms?  

...

Let me quote myself from page 81:

Quote[/b] ]

3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

What would be the all-out war be good for? This is already exactly what you do today, offering them peace on your terms.

Except the war would work something like this:

1. All civilists evacuate, going into refugee camps in Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

2. IDF obliterate any remnants in the questioned territories.

3. Nobody left to claim territory for a palestinian nation.

4. A lot of new room for israeli settlements.

Of course an exaggeration, but basically the only reason for a war would be to get rid of all those palestinians, that don't accept the israeli' terms, either way. And those terms would be no more bilateral or international (e.g. UN) agreements, but a dictation...

[SPQR 0]

Benny Morris , a love-caring man of palestinians...

Benny Morris dans le Mousaf Ha’Aretz...

Love has to keep going...in the Maariv newspaper

Just need for some translations for others. I've already got a french translation of this nice guy...

Some reactions ...

.... here

On  Amin, americano-palestinian journalist Jonathan Kuttab's site

and the Tikkun, american jewish liberal newspaper...

Quote[/b] ]Must Zionism Lead to Ethnic Cleansing? Benny Morris vs. Adi Ophir

In a recent interview published in Ha'aretz, Israeli "new historian" Benny Morris considers the possibility that the problem with Ben Gurion is that he didn't finish the job by expelling all Palestinians in 1947-49. Long reviled by the Israeli Right, Morris' newest version of his work on the original expulsion of Palestinians reveals yet more details of Israeli atrocities against Palestinian civilians. Yet far from being shocked, Morris seems to justify the human rights abuses as historically necessary. In fact, since the beginning of the second Intifada Morris has increasingly identified with right-wing interpretations of the current reality even though his historical research continues to validate the perspective that Israeli actions between 1947-49 were far worse than most Jews have been willing to acknowledge.

Adi Ophir, a professor at Tel Aviv University, argues that Morris' perspective is morally unacceptable and reveals some tragic flaws in the Zionist vision. We've taken these two separate pieces and justaposed them to create a debate which is only in cyberspace but never took place face to face. Benny Morris has been a frequent contributor to Tikkun magazine. Adi Ophir is a member of the Tikkun Editorial Advisory Board. Neither of their perspectives represents that of the Tikkun Community or of our editor Rabbi Michael Lerner—which is true of most of what we print in the magazine and put on our website's "Current Discussions" section.

................. to be continued, your turn to read...

The best way to gain Peace...

He must be corrupted !!!

[miles teg 1]

Personally I thought it was quite interesting that Jenny Tonge said that she quite possibly could become a suicide bomber if she lived in the same conditions.   While it was highly undiplomatic, there has sadly been little debate over the psychological/sociological studies that her comments tend to support in which is basically that Palistinian terrorists are not insane but rather that they are simply desperate and full of anger like a beaten dog backed into a corner.   Sure the Palistinians can leave (that is the Israeli strategy) but the Palistinians meet the Israeli stubborness with equal stubborness... and so it becomes a war of attrition to see who blinks first.  

Personally I do not see Israelies as monsters.  If they were they would have committed genocide already.  The Israelies of all people know the meaning of genocide and while I think a few would love to wipe out all the Palistinians, they are a tiny radical miniority.  I truly believe that most Israelies just want peace as do most Palistinians.  The problem is with the radical elements in both camps.  

On the Isreali side there are those in the government that refuse to abide by cease-fires be saying that arresting and assassinating Hamas/Islamic Jihad members is not part of any cease fire... which is a problem when the Palistinians disagree...and express such disagreements with renewed suicide bombings and attacks.  

What Palistinians don't seem to understand is that suicide bombings is totally and absolutely un-Islamic especially when it is against civilian targets.  With military targets there may be some debate, but if they have enough explosives for suicide bombers, then they have enough for conducting warfare against the Israeli military.  

However the Palistinian mentality seems to be that the West does not give a damn about them and so they concentrate on getting Arab/Muslim support by calling their fight a Jihad.

But while their struggle does meet some of the definitions of Jihad, the fact is that the Arab forces have lost time and time again, usually in spectacular fashion and probably need to take a hint that Israel is here to stay.  (God's Will).  

From an Islamic perspective is could be argued that Palistinians are being punished by God for stubbornly refusing God's will and instead giving in to their own pride, arrogance, and hatred.  

However....  if the Palistinians renounced terrorism (attacks against civilians) and instead waged a war strictly against the IDF, then I think world opinion would turn heavily in their favor... but then again they may be eternally branded as terrorists no matter what they do.  Hezbollah faced a similar problem in their war in Lebanon.  They were ultimately successful in fighting unconventionally against the IDF however despite the fact that the West spurned them and labeled them as terrorists even though they were waging a war against occupation and an internal civil war using methods of warfare that for the most part were directed at the Israeli and SLA military forces rather then at civilians. This is a MAJOR distinction in the rules of war according to the Geneva convention.

Americans don't like to believe it, but a person who attacks American soldiers is not a terrorist unless in doing so he blatantly kills lots of civilians. If an Iraqi for example, attacks American soldiers with an AK-47 and an RPG, he is in fact an enemy "soldier" and not a terrorist. Even using a roadside bomb, while a rather dishonorable way of fighting, is still an accepted part of war as long as it's done in a manner that does not blatantly kill civilians. Unfortunately some of the Iraq militants have not seemed to have grasped that concept and are in fact terrorists.  

But back to Hezbollah, even now parts of the Israeli government, intelligence community, and military are trying very hard to link Hezbollah to Al-Qaeda in order to focus the wrath of the United States down upon Hezbollah. This may be partly to do with vengeance, but it also may have to do with the fact that they are still a potent military threat to Israel as they are the only Arab force to taste victory against the Israelies.

When it comes down to it, it's all about who can successfully manipulate people's emotions to justify their cause (despite the brutality and inhumanity).  

As far as the whole war on terror goes, if we control the emotions of the Middle East then we will control this war and bring an end to it.   One simply has to look at how Islamic militant leaders control their followers.  Then emulate this, but with tables turned upon those militant leaders by using the very religious symbolism they claim to believe in.   If this is done with the backing of respected Islamic scholars it could have mass appeal and perhaps fullfill prophecy in Islam of one who unites the Islamic faiths.   Osama Bin Laden believes he is that one, but clearly he is not or else we would be in big trouble.  His message of violence against innocent people is far from Islamic and based on arrogance and hatred for the West...something Islam does not teach unless you interpret it that way by mixing it with modern political ideology.  The trick is to learn how to undermine that.  Learn that ideology and its techniques for teaching it...and then manipulate it to turn it against them in a manner even MORE emotionally appealing to a broader range of Muslims.  What currently is not being done for example is that United States is not encouraging the concepts of Freedom and Democracy in an Islamic framework.

Therefore it is very easy for Islamic militants to say that our concepts are anti-Islamic when really they are not.   We just simply have done a poor job in explaining them in an Islamic context.  

If anyone is interested in where I'm getting all this from, it's not entirely from sociological, pyschological, political science, or anthropological studies (although it is enhanced by such studies).   It is actually mostly from a sci-fi book.

For those of you interested in such things as I've discussed, I highly recommend reading "Heretics of Dune" by Frank Herbert (as well as the following book, "Chapter House-Dune").  

These books go very deep into the psychology of the military mind, and of the tactics of the manipulation of religion...and of understading religions and human beings in general.  

I consider Frank Herbert to be a genius in this regard as so much of his "work of entertainment" can be implemented today in powerful ways given the understanding we have today of human psychology, theology, culture, and sociology.  

It also may be no accident at the many spooky similarities between his books and what is going on in the world today.

Anyways, it may sound pretty far out, but read that book (Heretics of Dune) and then I think then it'll become clear.

The only real danger of tampering with religious forces is that you never know what you may unwittingly release or create.

Hence the need for tremendous foresight and planning before undertaking such policies...  

 

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SPQR 0]

I'll add that often "terrorism" (I mean often, different from always) is the war of the poor, the answer of the weak against the strong...

Now some leaders, while resting in peace near the "fireplace", use their power to transform people into weapons... but you can't transform anbody in weapon if he's isn't living enough in anger and despair.

For myself, I don't feel the need to transform myself in a human bomb to protect secularism or whatever...

I felt that this everlasting conflict threatening any innoncent live only willing to live peacefully, having a work, raising children,... the basic biological familiy live-being need had reach a "cursed" turning point when the first "woman-bomb" exploded... but it seemed not to have been noticed for what it really means.

In Nature laws, males exist for spreading genes and life, while females tend to look for the best breeder able to protect her younglings. As a matter of fact, females are the best luck for any specie survival.

If a huge biological inccident occurs :

- if your have 100 males and a female, the specie is condamned, the males will fight alltogether, and the resulting low number of babies will not be enough to start a new expansion of this specie.

- if you have 1 male and 100 females, you'll be able to save this specie.

Why when a boat is sinking, women and children are to besaved first ? Because, in the biological point of view, females and children are the future of the specie.

So, when a palestinian woman start to decide to explode herserlf, these biological rules rule human life anymore... nothing to lose, nothing to win. Only Death stays in mind.... absolute nihilism !

And to have this kind of thought, what only you have lived brings you this far. It's like suicide, nobody anyday without reasons and suffering asks to himself : "oh today, let's commit suicide, let's try maybe it's cool"

Arguing about who's started the first just to feel being right, it's like children arguing in the same manner after a fight : It's him... no it's him... no you did that first... no it's you who did this first.... and so onn neverending...

And while those "children" are arguing violently, two people and their are been spoiled, unemployement, extremisms (from both sides feeling better because only them possess the TRUTH, only them are representing the GOOD side against the EVIL side,....), economic crisis, global impoverishment (israelien religious and secular private assosciations are living a increasing hard time trying to help more and more new homeless people, without speaking about palestinian civilians),....

In the same time, religious fanatics, true descendants of the past "Assasins" of the Middle-Ages, those who used to threaten the pious Saladin himself, thanks to this conflict pretend to bear the justice sword for the palestinian.... and so on, you all know the story.

For those you can't or don't want to understand anything about that.... you're right, keep playing Operation FlashPoint

[Bernadotte 0]

Benny Morris... [etc]

WOW  

I'm not sure why, but I've never trusted the ethics of Benny Morris.  Many thanks for the links. SPQR.  

Edit: Here is the actual interview in English. I'd really like to get rufusmac's and Avon's opinions on it.

[SPQR 0]

He's not better than Hamas and so on morons who want to destroy to ashes Israël  

Keep going a few decades, and we may observe genocides and crimes against Humanity  

you are welcome Bernadotte, I just saw them thanks to "Courrier Internationnal"'letters

[Apollo 0]

I remember that ,on the day when 9/11 happened ,the Palestinians were dancing and sheering on the streets because they thought that it were Palestinians who were responsible.

I know that on that moment i thought ,poor souls you don't know what you are doing ,America is going to crush you.Luckily for them if wasn't a Palestinian who was responsible ,regardless of that i understood that from that moment on they would get included in the enchanced label "terrorists" ,regarded as a severe threat where the U.S shouldn't have mercy upon.In fact on that very day the Israeli made a number of incursions in Palestinian territory ,and that action was not really condemed by the U.S.

It only underline's the immense power the U.S is ,able to put an enourmess pressure if needed on virtually any country in the world ,as such very able to steer international diplomacy.If it hadn't been for 9/11 ,the U.S might have used it's diplomatic pressure more to force a cease fire between Israel/palestine.However ,most of the people in the U.S ,by statistics ,support Israel as since 9/11 those Palestinians are regarded as "evil" as the 9/11 terrorists were.Indeed ,within this usually no distinction is made ,wheter or not Palestinians attack a civilian bus with a bomb or a IDF checkpoint with Ak's they are for youre average u.S citizin still a terrorist.

[Longinius 1]

I doubt they thought Palestinians did it. Those that danced and cheered did so because the US finally got to feal what terror is like, something these people experience every day, paid for by US tax funds.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I doubt they thought Palestinians did it. Those that danced and cheered did so because the US finally got to feal what terror is like, something these people experience every day, paid for by US tax funds.

In any case ,clearly they were to uneducated to understand the implications of what they were doing ,as it was a severe public relations blow to the U.S for them ,an important mediator in a potential cease fire.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]In any case ,clearly they were to uneducated to understand the implications of what they were doing ,as it was a severe public relations blow to the U.S for them ,an important mediator in a potential cease fire.

I dont think they see the US as a part of a solution. I think they view them as a part of the problem.

[miles teg 1]

I agree.  Most Palistinians gave up a long time ago in believing that the United States is any kind of neutral mediator in their conflict with the Israelies.  Most see the United States as fully on the side of Israel hence their joy at seeing the United States attacked by fellow Muslim militants.

But also know this... not ALL Palistinians were dancing for joy over 9/11.   All over the media, there were many complaints from journalists that their networks ordered them to go find Arabs/Muslims celebrating the 9/11 attack. Some of these journalists refused.   The same goes for the Palistinians.  They were not all dancing for joy in the streets.  

This is part of the dangerous manipulation of public perception that the media is capable of.  Control the media and you control half of the battle.  Sadly however the media is mainly interested in sensationalism... stuff that really pisses people off or gets people excited. Showing Arabs and Muslims around the world dancing for joy over 9/11 is definitely one of those things... sadly little coverage was given to the memorials to the tragedy all around the Middle East including a very touching candlelight memorial in Iran.

As for the earlier biological stuff mentioned, human beings are interesting in that we can rise above our natural biological urges and in fact adapt to vastly different situations.  It's part of our success as a species...and one of our curses.  

One woman blowing herself up does not = the end of the human species.   It just signifies a very brain-washed and desperate woman.  This was apparent in the BBC interview with her husband.  When they asked him what he thought about the families of the Israelies his wife had murdered, he just had this blank look on his face as if he had never even thought about it or didn't know what to say.   Really sad.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SPQR 0]

Too few people are able to imagine the others' pain without being blinded by his own... That's called empathy.

[GoOB 0]

Just saw an interesting news piece while at work. Apparently even some former IDF are against what the Israelig government is doing with the wall being constructed, one pilot who had served with the IDF really hit it spot on. He said something like

"I would gladly serve in the IDF, but unfortunatley that is not possible. What we have now is an occupational force controlled by the government to carry out heinous acts that will in the end only hurt the Israeli people"

Also a former member of the department of security, might be the former head of it to be honest I can't remember. But he said something about the Palestinians being weak, but acting strong and Israel being strong and acting weak. Very wise words, if only people like these could be the heads of the two conflicting parties...

EDIT: Really weird mistakes, I blame it on work.

[shinRaiden 0]

In futher support of Miles 1st treatise on pg. 83, Yitzahk Shamir, when asked what would happen if the Palestinians decided to switch to heavy military attacks directly on military and military installations, as opposed to terror bombings and snipings of women and children, is reported to have said "there wouldn't be even a memory left of them."

A justification often cited for attacking non-uniformed israelis is that with a very small exception, all Israelis have to serve in compulsary active duty, followed by reserve duty until retirement age if I'm not mistaken. Countering this though, is the terrorist's imams calling for all muslims to wage jihad as muhajadeen, and the repeated usage of women as bombers, and incited child mobs as cover for snipers. At least Israel has the benefit of precision weapons to minimize collareral damage.

Incidentally, anyone notice that this thread is titled "The Middle East" thread, and not "Israel vs. the world"? Now that Iraq is effectively offline for several years, and SaudiA is running scared between being stuck with Al'Qaeda, Iraqi Oil, cell phones and internet cafes, and Bush slipping in his speech by saying "friend in the ME" instead of "friends in the ME", who do you think will be next to stump for neo-caliph? My vote is for King Abdullah, the Jordanians have the best camels of course.

[Bernadotte 0]

Israeli Demographics 101

More Jews are leaving Israel than entering because of:

- ongoing terrorism

- few jobs in a hopelessly depressed economy

- much better opportunities abroad

- no sources of new immigrants like the Soviet Union and Argentina were

- list of alternative nations where Jews can live free of anti-Semitism continues to grow

Israel's non-Jewish population continues to grow rapidly because of:

- much higher birthrate among Arabs

- foreign workers brought in from SE Asia or Africa to replace Palestinian labourers, are having babies in Israel and seeking citizenship

There is little hope of the above trends reversing because:

- Israel has to spend too much of its budget on security to improve the economy

- US aid levels have begun to drop

- Israel's voters turning to the right is increasingly scaring away more people than it is attracting

- European markets for Israeli products may be put at risk by lack of progress towards peace

- the EU has begun to enforce trade barriers against Israeli products from settlements

I'm curious how the demographic statistics will appear in the years to come.  AFAIK, Israel let's its citizens live abroad for years at a time without having to give up residence at home.  This means that the the people who left in 2000 because of the 2nd Intifada will have to return soon or be counted out from the official census.

Non-Jews may already constitute a clear majority of the population living within Israel's borders.

[miles teg 1]

Where do these figures come from???  It's always a good idea to cite references when talking demographics.

Non-Jews outnumber Jews in Israel?  

Even if that were the case, does it really matter? They are getting attacked just the same by terrorists and I'm sure would be just as happy as Jews to vote for right wing hard line politicians in Israel if they get citizenship.  

If a Jewish person was living with the Palistinians and treated as a Palistinian I'm sure that likewise it wouldn't take long before he or she at least sympathized somewhat with the Palistinians.  

Also US support for Israel is not shrinking under the Bush Administration.  If anything support for Israel is as strong as its ever been.  If their economy sunk significantly, the US would probably bail them out.  

ShinRaiden, I agree.  Saudi Arabia is caught in a world of paradox as are most countries in the Middle East... caught between nostalgia and longing for traditional cultural and religious beliefs to remain the same eternally (reinforced by an often vastly exaggerated romanticization of their past) and on the other hand facing economic realities and the fear of marginalization.   The Islamic people of the Middle East are generally divided (even within their own minds) about how to proceed into the future.  Technologically I don't think most of them have any problems embracing scientific fields.  Probably 98% of all Middle Eastern students in the United States are studying some sort of science or mathamatics related field. Most Islamic scholars seem to agree that the Qu'ran embraces and encourages scientific research and discovery.   However what they have trouble embracing are the cultural changes that technology brings upon them and the world.  It puts them into incredibly close contact with Western culture and influence at which they are at a disadvantage.  Worse those who are left out of the global market declare that this is because Western culture has marginalized them and kept them down because the West is a sinful and sneaky culture that takes advantages of the righteous and pious Muslim.  

What is being done in some cases by Imams in these regions of poverty is simple scape-goating.  Much of their economic problems revolve around their own governments and not the West.  

The really frustrating thing however is that often much of the problem is purely imagined and just based on cultural misunderstandings.  Economic development in the Middle East often does even bother to attempt to work in an Islamic context.  Instead Western methodology is often used that is very foreign to uneducated people in rural areas who don't particularly like some economist or sociologist coming in to tell them how stupid and backwards they are and that they need to reject their traditions and get with the program.

This is actually not just a Middle East problem.  This occurs in many poorly managed development programs all over the developing world.  

So personally in my opinion I believe that this one VERY important front in which the war on terror needs to be faught as economic development goes hand in hand with education and dialog.  

By the way, speaking of dialog, in case some of you haven't caught the news, the Indian Prime Minister just recently met with Kashmiri seperatist leaders for the first time.   This in my opinion was an incredibly brave move on his part and I think shows real hope for the future of that region.  Whether his bold move works may either help or hinder similar strategies in the Middle East.

Imagine if Sharon decided to hold meetings directly with Hamas and Islamic-Jihad leaders in an attempt to get to the roots of the problem and deal directly with the enemy.

I doubt that will ever happen...but I never thought the Indian PM would ever talk to Kashmiri seperatists either.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

Where do these figures come from???

I was referring to trends I'd read about for several years.  But according to this source, 5.3 million out of the 10.0 million people living within Israel's borders in 2002, were Jews.

And on fertility rate, the same source says:

Quote[/b] ]In 2002, the total fertility rate (TFR) in Palestine of 5.9 children per woman was more than twice as high as in Israel (2.9), which is reflected in their respective rates of natural increase (3.5% annually versus 1.5%). The TFR in the Gaza Strip was one of the highest in the world at 6.6 births per woman (2001). Similar trends can be seen within Israel: Jewish women have a TFR of 2.6 compared with 4.7 for Muslim women (2001).

Non-Jews outnumber Jews in Israel?

As I stated, it may already be the case.  However, the statistics might not begin to reflect people having left because of the Intifada until this year.

Even if that were the case, does it really matter?

Yes.  Israel can't really call itself a "Jewish state" if the majority of people living there are not Jewish.

Also US support for Israel is not shrinking under the Bush Administration.

This year's US aid package was cut by a few hundred million dollars because of the security fence construction opposed by Washington.

If their economy sunk significantly, the US would probably bail them out.

In fact, the US is required by law to bail out Israel if necessary.  According to the 1984 Cranston Amendment the US must pay annual aid to Israel at least equal to the value of interest and principle Israel owes on its loans.  In other words, Israel can never go bankrupt.