The Middle East part 2

[Blake 0]

I fail to see how these things have relation, you can find gory images everywhere around the world, and naturally, use it for something like pro-fence propaganda purposes.

I found it disgusting if body parts are used in propaganda purposes, but why should I change my mind about the art? I find it disrespecting, and if somebody would put up something like it in here about local crimes it would spark outrage.

If victims have been offended by such propaganda display, damn well they have the right to complain. Same goes for this Snowhite thing. I don't know why it should be immune to every criticism and objection because it's art. The clumsy propaganda efforts of Israeli government don't in any way make me feel that the artwork is any better. Art is in display because it tries to convey message in somewhat refined way than everyday photos of blood and guts. In my opinion the artwork was naive and straightforward and failed in in it's task.

BTW. the fence presented in the slideshow is ridiculously small even though it's quite high at some points...well that was kind of expected.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]

It's also strange if people who don't like the artwork and how the message is conveyed is labelled anti-Palestinian and pro-Israeli.

Well the knife cuts both ways. I also see this artwork as provocative - not only because of the possible explanation to what made her do what she did - but also what she did, and her actions cannot be justified.

So all in all our reasons for liking or disliking it might not differ that much.

I understand this piece of art to be a comment and a message to both parties: stop indiscriminate killing and suicide bombing!

[Bernadotte 0]

I found it disgusting if body parts are used in propaganda purposes, but why should I change my mind about the art? I find it disrespecting...

Ok, I think I understand you now.  You disagree with the use of real or fake blood to convey any message, even if the victims don't mind.  Have I got that right?

I'll assume you are not Catholic*.  

Edit:  * For the sake of those not familiar with the message of the Catholic eucharist, worshippers have been regularly drinking the fake blood and eating the fake body of Jesus Christ for a very very long time.  And owing to a process called transubstantiation, true believers do not even regard it as fake.

[GoOB 0]

Quote[/b] ]I can only assume you're referring to the refugee camps.

No, I am not. I am referring to the camps created when settlements are surrounded and closed off by walls, with gates controlled by the IDF who dictates who and when gets in and out.

Then you're making up pure fiction.

What? Last time I checked the IDF did incircle settlements and block roads leading from said settlements deciding who goes out of these settlements. Preventing normal, non-terrorist Palestinians from going to their pastures, their jobs and moving freely in general. Surely you must have seen and or heard of these circumstances, as I even I have seen these settlements. Although not first hand but in a documentary aired on SVT a while back, about a family living in such a settlement.

But we can't belive now that can we? Afterall Swedish media has been labelled as "anti-Israeli"

EDIT: Big booboo in original post.

[Bernadotte 0]

I am referring to the camps created when settlements are surrounded and closed off by walls, with gates controlled by the IDF who dictates who and when gets in and out.

Then you're making up pure fiction.

Here is a good flash presentation about the security fence by an Israeli peace group that reveals what Avon and her government are trying to hide.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ok, I think I understand you now. You disagree with the use of real or fake blood to convey any message, even if the victims don't mind. Have I got that right?

No you didn't. I just don't like that Snowwhite-thingie.

Anyway it's a matter of taste which will never be agreed upon.

Let's move on.

[Bernadotte 0]

I just don't like that Snowwhite-thingie.

Anyway it's a matter of taste which will never be agreed upon.

If the Snowwhite-thingie is really just a matter of taste then how would you have conveyed the message of the bomber's transformation from innocence more tastefully?

And if you believe that there was no transformation and she was always a monster then your problem is with the artist's message, which is a matter of opinion and not a matter of taste.

So which is it, Blake?

By the way, the first female Palestinian suicide bomber was a young ambulance paramedic who saw too many kids getting gunned down with live ammo.  The IDF had even shot her a few times with rubber-coated bullets while she was trying to rescue victims.  Is that what transformed her from care-giver into terrorist monster?  Who knows.

[theavonlady 2]

I am referring to the camps created when settlements are surrounded and closed off by walls, with gates controlled by the IDF who dictates who and when gets in and out.

Then you're making up pure fiction.

Here is a good flash presentation about the security fence by an Israeli peace group that reveals what Avon and her government are trying to hide.

Let's see whose the one that's hiding information here.

Slide 1:

No Separation

Then why the complaints?

No security

Then why the dramatic drop in terrorist incursions since the fence has gone up.

Only land grab

Maybe. Around 15% of Judea and Samaria. And then it's legal and justifiable.

Slide 2: The Green Line

The area in the Green Line illegally belonged to Jordan until 1967. After 1967 it is argueable what Israel may or may not do within the Green Line.

unarmed popular uprising.

Gush Shalom forgot a few facts.

Slide 3:

The Intifada Revived the Green Line Within the Israeli Discourse.

Only to a certain theoretical extent. That's why the Oslo Accords don't even mention it altogether. What a small oversight, no?

Gush Shalom's presentation here fails to say why the 2000 Camp David summit failed. More hiding on the part of Gush Shalom - or is it selective memory loss?

As for Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, it's the Arab's foney excuse. More hiding on Gush Shalom's part.

The Israel public assumed the separation would follow the green line

No. Only Gush Shalom and company assumed that. The building of the fence was openly debated in the public and in the political arena. No one made assumptions. Arguments of numerous possibilities were made. This is all wishful thinking.

Slide 4:

As can be seen, the path of the wall separates about 15% of Judea and Samaria. How is this "The Maximum of Palestinian Land", as the slide title portrays?

And Israel hasn't been hiding the map from anybody.

Slide 5:

Closing the enclave

There might be such a plan on paper but there's no machinery or people working on any such proposed eastern boundary at this time.

Regarding Gush Shalom's quote from the 4th Hague Convention, they've conveniently left out Article 23G:

Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden

(g) To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war.

More hiding, indeed!

Slide 6:

The Green Line - Border Of Peace

The last decade and especially the last year has shown this to be anything but reality.

This is an incomplete assessment of Gush Shalom's presentation. Sorry if I don't have the time to write a doctorate on the subject.

G'nite!

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]I can only assume you're referring to the refugee camps.

No, I am not. I am referring to the camps created when settlements are surrounded and closed off by walls, with gates controlled by the IDF who dictates who and when gets in and out.

Then you're making up pure fiction.

What? Last time I checked the IDF did incircle settlements and block roads leading from said settlements deciding who goes out of these settlements.

Those enclosures, OK. Now I know what you're talking about.

Longinius originally made it sound like Israel is creating new camps. The same people are living in the same houses. They have a lot more difficulty moving around. So do Israeli's living in Judea and Samaria, BTW.

Quote[/b] ]Preventing normal, non-terrorist Palestinians from going to their pastures, their jobs and moving freely in general. Surely you must have seen and or heard of these circumstances, as I even I have seen these settlements.

Yep. All on TV here. Don't need to go to Sweden or to Syria to watch this.

Quote[/b] ]Although not first hand but in a documentary aired on SVT a while back, about a family living in such a settlement.

I feel sorry for them. Pity the terrorists don't. Just like the mother of 2 suicide bomber who blew herself up last week and ruined the relaxing of entry measures at the Erez crossing in Gaza for thousands of Palestinian breadwinners.

As I wrote then here (you'll have to look back), even the Arabs themselves described the act as "stupid" and hurting no one but the suicide bomber's own people.

[GoOB 0]

Just like the mother of 2 suicide bomber who blew herself up last week and ruined the relaxing of entry measures at the Erez crossing in Gaza for thousands of Palestinian breadwinners.

As I wrote then here (you'll have to look back), even the Arabs themselves described the act as "stupid" and hurting no one but the suicide bomber's own people.

That is what all violence leads to, destruction to the people group of wich the agressor(s) belonged/belongs to. The whole conflict could be resolved without a drop of blood being spilled if the children who are currently in reign would just take a step up to adulthood for a few months and come to terms, instead of this sand cake throwing competition that's currently going on.

The violence goes both ways, Israel razes a small settlement a suicide bombing occurs, Israel razes a few more buildings and shoots a few demonstrants/rioters another suicide bombing... The cycle continues, and both sides are getting hurt by their own hands.

[Bernadotte 0]

Only land grab

Maybe. Around 15% of Judea and Samaria. And then it's legal and justifiable.

LOL... Where did you learn law?  Try stealing around 15% of your neighbour's property and see if the judge rules your actions to be legal and justifiable.  And according to what special form of math does the Israeli controlled (green) area in the following map amount to just 15%:

It's quite clear who is hiding the truth when you compare the above map with the Israeli government version:

[theavonlady 2]

Only land grab

Maybe. Around 15% of Judea and Samaria. And then it's legal and justifiable.

LOL... Where did you learn law?  Try stealing around 15% of your neighbour's property and see if the judge rules your actions to be legal and justifiable.

As I've pointed out, it's not stolen.

As I've also pointed out, take away the imaginary "suggested" sections of the fence and you wind up with 15%.

You can hypothesize all you want about if and when the "suggested" sections of the fence will ever be implemented but there's nothing there now.

[theavonlady 2]

The whole conflict could be resolved without a drop of blood being spilled if the children who are currently in reign would just take a step up to adulthood for a few months and come to terms, instead of this sand cake throwing competition that's currently going on.

It's so cutsie of you to call everyone here children but it's a tragic story of human adults.

Israel took many steps back when implementing Oslo. This allowed Arafat and many more terorists with their unrenounced goal of the destruction of Israel to advance and cause grevious harm to our country, under the ruse of a peace treaty.

You can't make peace with someone whose ultimate objective remains killing you.

It's about time the little children of Europe came around to being a little bit honest about the inaliable right of Israel to defend itself from the murdering beasts the EU continues to fund and nod approvingly of.

Quote[/b] ]The violence goes both ways, Israel razes a small settlement a suicide bombing occurs,

Back in October 2000, what settlement was razed?

In fact, where did Israel "raze" an Arab settlement?

You have your cause and effect reversed.

Quote[/b] ]Israel razes a few more buildings

Why? What happened? Cause and effect reversed again.

Quote[/b] ]and shoots a few demonstrants/rioters

You forgot armed terrorists. You forgot that the rioters are not out to wave signs of protest but to physically harm Israelis. How convenient of you.

Quote[/b] ]another suicide bombing...

And again cause and effect are reversed.

The cycle continues, and both sides are getting hurt by their own hands.

If Israel were to drop their guns, there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to drop their guns, there would be peace. Nothing's changed over the last 55-60 or so years.

[Blake 0]

So which is it, Blake?

You are not going enlighten me to like that artwork. So drop it.

[shinRaiden 0]

The only thing for sure about lines in the sand is that the wind blows them around. Look at the lapel pin Arafat wears, and match up that line. Now where does Israel fit in?

I would presume that flashpoint players would understand the strategic advantage of terrain and how political maps don't neccessarily relate to reality in shape, form, or fashion.

I live out in the sticks and we've been embroiled in a fence dispute between two cantankerous krumedgeonly old horse ranchers. The deeds and county records say that the property line goes right down the middle of our private road, which is an deeded easement from neighbor A. But hes says since the gravel was 'historically' on B's side, the 'defacto' border drifted 2m east. So B sez "to heck with you" and plants a railroad tie in the middle of the road. Now the rural fire trucks can't make the bend and you have 90-year-old B cursing A's ancestory back to Father Adam in court, while A's lawyer is chronically late by covering a crazed psychic's divorce. This has been ongoing for 15 years now. B has signs around his property that say "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be violated".

Now you've got Arik and Arafat going at it like Lewis and Tyson, or Akebono and Musashimaru. As long as folks keep running business as usual, the hills will continue to be... how do you say... 'well fertilized'? It's actually gorgeous in the spring when the mountains are all green and the flowers are in bloom.

In stead of squabbling over meters E or W, chain-link vs. concrete, how about some ideas agreeable to the general populace (not the fringes on both sides) that do not involve the unilateral liquidation of undesirable liabilities?

[Bernadotte 0]

So which is it, Blake?

You are not going enlighten me to like that artwork. So drop it.

LOL... I'm not trying to enlighten you Blake.  I'm trying to enlighten me about your opinions of the artwork.  I've read days of spam out of you on the subject and your thoughts are still clear as mud.  So run from my questions if you must, but believe me when I say that I was asking for my benefit rather than yours.

[shinRaiden 0]

Has anyone come up with a reason as to why putting Al'Fatah in uniforms and calling them police makes them any more respectable?

The DC area got their break when the DC sniper got nabbed. When does Gilo get a break? Should Gilo get a break? If they 'deserve' to be sniped to 'even the score' for hits in Gaza, would you care to explain that?

Further more, how about reports that Ms. Bomber was banging a Hamas bomb-builder, and when her family found out, her only means of 'restoring their honor' was 'martyrdom'. Allegedly her boyfriend rigged her up with a bomb, and her husband drove her to the border. The family denies all this, but admits that she and her husband were having hard times and contemplating divorce.

And what about the guys who hid out in the church of the nativity after firing on uniformed military? Who paid the bills to clean up the place? Not the guys who made the mess...

an idea

[GoOB 0]

The whole conflict could be resolved without a drop of blood being spilled if the children who are currently in reign would just take a step up to adulthood for a few months and come to terms, instead of this sand cake throwing competition that's currently going on.

It's so cutsie of you to call everyone here children but it's a tragic story of human adults.

Oh yes, that is what I meant. Perhaps I should have made that "stop acting like children" since that is what I see Mr.Sharon and most others behaving as when handling the matter at hand.

EDIT: Also, I didn't mean entire settlements. I guess I was exxagerating to get my point across. Again, I should have toned it down to hinder eventual misunderstandings. I apologize.

[Oligo 1]

You see no controversy in normal, quite talented student boy turning into a human bomb?

I think it is amusing that people here feel so puzzled about why that person blew himself up in the mall. I'm amazed we are not seeing that happen every day.

Edit: I'm talking about the Vantaa case, not the Mid East thing. It's off topic anyway, so let's just leave it at that.

[GoOB 0]

You see no controversy in normal, quite talented student boy turning into a human bomb?

I think it is amusing that people here feel so puzzled about why that person blew himself up in the mall. I'm amazed we are not seeing that happen every day.

I can understand why they do it but doing the same is not right. The common Israeli man has done nothing to the Palestinians, much less the common Israeli child. The same probably goes vice versa.

Heck, if my family was killed by an invading force/government for being suspected of terrorism against them I wouldn't sit idly by. But killing other innocent civilians in revenge for other innocent civilians deaths is where I would draw the line.

[Bernadotte 0]

Only land grab

Maybe. Around 15% of Judea and Samaria. And then it's legal and justifiable.

LOL... Where did you learn law?  Try stealing around 15% of your neighbour's property and see if the judge rules your actions to be legal and justifiable.

As I've pointed out, it's not stolen.

If it's not stolen then why don't you take more?  Why not take it all?

As I've also pointed out, take away the imaginary "suggested" sections of the fence and you wind up with 15%.

You can hypothesize all you want about if and when the "suggested" sections of the fence will ever be implemented but there's nothing there now.

Even if destroying Israel would be seriously considered by the Palestinian Authority they would have absolutely no means to carry out such a plan.  Yet how many times have you hypothesized in this thread about exactly such a thing happening?

On the other hand, the suggested route of the fence has been mapped and presented in Israel's national newspapers and your government very much has the means to implement it.  Yet you expect the Palestinians not to be concerned as long as "there's nothing there now."

What a ridiculous double standard.

[OmniMax 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I can understand why they do it but doing the same is not right. The common Israeli man has done nothing to the Palestinians, much less the common Israeli child. The same probably goes vice versa.

Besides having strangers just take over your land, over sympathy, nothing, really...

Atleast, thats what wikopedia has to say about it.

a quote, if you will, from a short piece.

The British government put severe limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. Immigration was allowed, but up to a certain quota. Both Arabs and Jews disliked this policy, each side for its own reasons. Tensions lead to widespread violent disturbances on several occasions, notably in 1921, 1929 and 1936-1939. The 1929 disturbances were primarily violent attacks by Arabs on Jews (see Hebron). For 1936-9 see the following section. In response to numerous Palestinian Arab attacks on Jewish communities, the Haganah was formed on June 15th, 1920. Beginning in 1936, several Jewish groups such as Etzel (Irgun) and Lehi (Stern Gang) conducted their own campaign of violence against British and Arab targets.

[Bernadotte 0]

The DC area got their break when the DC sniper got nabbed. When does Gilo get a break? Should Gilo get a break? If they 'deserve' to be sniped to 'even the score' for hits in Gaza, would you care to explain that?

AFAIK, nobody here posted anything about Gilo. But, perhaps you should read this.

Further more, how about reports that Ms. Bomber was banging a Hamas bomb-builder, and when her family found out, her only means of 'restoring their honor' was 'martyrdom'. Allegedly her boyfriend rigged her up with a bomb, and her husband drove her to the border. The family denies all this, but admits that she and her husband were having hard times and contemplating divorce.

I suspect that many suicide bombers were probably going to commit suicide anyway for reasons having nothing to do with the popular struggle.

And what about the guys who hid out in the church of the nativity after firing on uniformed military? Who paid the bills to clean up the place? Not the guys who made the mess...

Wasn't the number who became trapped there over a hundred?

Wasn't the number who were actually gunmen around a dozen?

What's your point?  

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I've read days of spam out of you on the subject and your thoughts are still clear as mud.

So my postings are spam in your opinion? No, I will not start flame war with you and I won't go on repeating what I've said.

[theavonlady 2]

The common Israeli man has done nothing to the Palestinians, much less the common Israeli child. The same probably goes vice versa.

Think again.