The Middle East part 2

[FallenPaladin 0]

Perhaps if the someone could furnish Hamas with state of the art weaponry, attack choppers, and tanks, they could stick to military targets and avoid more civilians, not having to rely on the tactic of suicide bombers...

I had the same thought a week ago or so. It`s just the question of the tools you have if you want to hit designated targets.

[CAT_SHET_ONE_MM 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Major Fubar @ June 26 2003,08:49)

Perhaps if the someone could furnish Hamas with state of the art weaponry, attack choppers, and tanks, they could stick to military targets and avoid more civilians, not having to rely on the tactic of suicide bombers...

I had the same thought a week ago or so. It`s just the question of the tools you have if you want to hit designated targets.

That's why I think they (as in Hamas) are bunch of cowards. If they were not cowards... they will try to kill Israeli soldiers and tanks in "all" atemp. Not targetting civilians because I think civilians are more deeper in the country than the soldiers who stand in the border or so called border.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Cowards can`t launch suicide attacks in the way those people do. They act in total desperation which makes them so dangerous.

[CAT_SHET_ONE_MM 0]

Cowards can`t launch suicide attacks in the way those people do. They act in total desperation which makes them so dangerous.

This is serious. Not to mock you or anything but how are cowards more dangerous then non cowards when it comes down to suiccide bombing and targetting "soldiers" (and ofcourse tanks........... (if they even get close.))

I really want to know since I'm not really a smart person.... awww.... this forum is pretty fun... LOL

[FallenPaladin 0]

It`s hard to explain in english.

There are cowards and cowards, you know. Some are afraid of death while others aren`t but we call them cowards because of their actions (e.g. killing civilians) .

[Tamme 0]

I just want to make sure that I'm not defending Israel. Both Hamas and Israel are doing lots of wrong.

Israel isn't all bad, but as well hamas isn't all bad. Hamas is doing lots of social work in Palestin and if hamas is destroyed the war could possibly end but what would happen when there would'nt be anyone doing the social work?

I've been thinking, that if hamas would state that they will stop attacking Israel and then actually stop it. What would Israel do? Would they keep on rocketing palestinians or would they stop too?

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EDIT:Typos fixed

[Bernadotte 0]

[...]

Uh, no.  You said this

[...]

Duh... wrong again...  Now please pay attention this time.

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]For every Hamas militant that Israel assassinates, 3 innocent bystanders are killed.

By Israel or by Hamas?

On average, 3 innocent Palestinian bystanders are killed by Israeli forces along with every Hamas militant assassinated by Israeli forces.

As you can see (and probably already know), my explanation/elaboration was solely for your benefit because you were having difficulty understanding part of my original statement.  Of course, that doesn't mean you can now seperate my explanation from the context of the original statement.

Send me a PM if you don't understand what I've just written and I'll try using smaller words, ok?

First off, I'd like to see your source for that.  And don't give me plo.org or something like that.

I've never quoted Palestinian info sources.  Nearly all my stats come from Israeli organisations like B'Tselem.  Check out their statistics page if you really want to know what's going on.

Now you're trying to tell me with a straight face that Israel is guilty of killing innocent people and Hamas isn't?

Really?  Please show me where I (or anyone here) said that!

Meanwhile, I saw this and it reminded me of you:

[bn880 5]

so let me guess... Israel is ALWAYS wrong?

that's why I agreed with Friedman's article sometime ago which i forgot to post here.. but basically it said Israel and Abbas should not get hung with militant attacks, and should steadfastly go with peace process.

found a short part of leading paragraphs.

Quote[/b] ]The Reality Principle

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN (NYT) 834 words

Late Edition - Final , Section 4 , Page 13 , Column 1

LEAD PARAGRAPH - Have you noticed how often Israel kills a Hamas activist and the victim is described by Israelis as ''a senior Hamas official'' or a ''key operative''? This has led me to wonder: How many senior Hamas officials could there be? We're not talking about I.B.M. here. We're talking about a ragtag terrorist group. By now Israel should have killed off the entire Hamas leadership twice. Unless what is happening is something else, something I call Palestinian math: Israel kills one Hamas operative and three others volunteer to take his place, in which case what Israel is doing is actually self-destructive.

Self-destructive is, in fact, a useful term to describe Israelis and Palestinians today. ''Both sides,'' notes the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi, ''have crossed the line where self-defense has turned into self-destruction. When self-defense becomes self-destruction, only an external force can bring people back to their senses. And that force is President Bush. I think he is the only reality principle left that either side might listen to, and I hope he understands that.''

Their actions appear to be 99% wrong. After all, have you noticed what's going on? Hamas is basically like a badly beaten animal, which turns to its instincts and fights any way it can. Israel is not beaten at all, only in the brain department they seem to be a little retarded with their strategy for peace.

I don't agree with Friedmans article too much.

Moronic request from Israeli leadership: "there will be a cease fire when the attacks stop" while they continue with occupation, settlements, already destroyed infrastructure and killed/took so many people, not to mention asassinations. Everyone needs to talk some sense into Israel to back down completely, it's not like Hamas is going to come in and destroy Israel if they do. Then Hamas can be concentrated on. And I'm not talking about removing 4 settlements and calling a cease fire until any shot is fired, I'm talking about hauling their ass out of all Palestinian territory quickly, and give some time until Hamas can calm down. No beating around the Bush like has been going on for years with the help of the US.

[FSPilot 0]

MajorFubar

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps if the someone could furnish Hamas with state of the art weaponry, attack choppers, and tanks, they could stick to military targets and avoid more civilians, not having to rely on the tactic of suicide bombers...

I don't think they've had too much luck with force on force wars in the past.

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]Duh... wrong again... Now please pay attention this time.

Page 2, seventh post from the top. You said it just like I posted. Now stop patronizing me.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Hamas is basically like a badly beaten animal, which turns to its instincts and fights any way it can. Israel is not beaten at all, only in the brain department they seem to be a little retarded with their strategy for peace.

i'm pretty sure Hamas set themselves up for the beating. their stance is complete fall of Israel, not the compromise of two-states. so I guess since Israel is the bad guy, they should bend over and get beaten up?

Quote[/b] ]Everyone needs to talk some sense into Israel to back down completely, it's not like Hamas is going to come in and destroy Israel if they do. Then Hamas can be concentrated on. And I'm not talking about removing 4 settlements and calling a cease fire until any shot is fired, I'm talking about hauling their ass out of all Palestinian territory quickly, and give some time until Hamas can calm down. No beating around the Bush like has been going on for years with the help of the US.

i'll hold you on that. should two-state actually happens and Hamas still attacks Israel(which I hope does not happen), then there is no excuse.

just what makes you think Hamas, the group that is existing under idea of destroying Israel, will end its attack should Israel completely withdraw?

and just for balance, Sharon is a moron for not getting on with peace process earlier. he accused Arafat of being an asshole, and now that Abba is in, guess he can't whine like before.

[FallenPaladin 0]

he accused Arafat of being an asshole, and now that Abba is in, guess he can't whine like before.

What`s Abba got to do with Hamas???    

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Hamas is basically like a badly beaten animal, which turns to its instincts and fights any way it can. Israel is not beaten at all, only in the brain department they seem to be a little retarded with their strategy for peace.

i'm pretty sure Hamas set themselves up for the beating. their stance is complete fall of Israel, not the compromise of two-states. so I guess since Israel is the bad guy, they should bend over and get beaten up?

Quote[/b] ]Everyone needs to talk some sense into Israel to back down completely, it's not like Hamas is going to come in and destroy Israel if they do. Then Hamas can be concentrated on. And I'm not talking about removing 4 settlements and calling a cease fire until any shot is fired, I'm talking about hauling their ass out of all Palestinian territory quickly, and give some time until Hamas can calm down. No beating around the Bush like has been going on for years with the help of the US.

i'll hold you on that. should two-state actually happens and Hamas still attacks Israel(which I hope does not happen), then there is no excuse.

just what makes you think Hamas, the group that is existing under idea of destroying Israel, will end its attack should Israel completely withdraw?

and just for balance, Sharon is a moron for not getting on with peace process earlier. he accused Arafat of being an asshole, and now that Abba is in, guess he can't whine like before.

Well, I doubt you will see Israel back out completely, so we can't be making bets on this either way.

What makes me think they will stop attacking if Israel withdraws? Nothing, Israel has more obligations than just withdrawing, like dismantling settlements, stopping assasinations etc. Look back a page or two to see the Hamas stance on the two state idea. They will stop attacking once they realize they aren't under Israeli or US mercy and control anymore. (which will probably happen when pigs fly)

[ralphwiggum 6]

What makes me think they will stop attacking if Israel withdraws?     Nothing, Israel has more obligations than just withdrawing, like dismantling settlements, stopping assasinations etc.  Look back a page or two to see the Hamas stance on the two state idea.  They will stop attacking once they realize they aren't under Israeli or US mercy and control anymore. (which will probably happen when pigs fly)

doesn't it come to your mind that they are playing PR war as much as the otherside does. They could say they are pro-two-state solution, but they only say that for PR reason, while their true intent is to continue pushing the limits?

Quote[/b] ](which will probably happen when pigs fly)

let's not get to cynical shall we?

[Bernadotte 0]

Now stop patronizing me.

Now you're trying to tell me with a straight face that Israel is guilty of killing innocent people and Hamas isn't?

If you can show me where anyone here has said that Hamas is not guilty of killing innocent people then I will stop treating you like a pathetic flame-baiting liar.

[Bernadotte 0]

i'm pretty sure Hamas set themselves up for the beating. their stance is complete fall of Israel, not the compromise of two-states.

Careful there, Ralph.  You do know that at least 1/3 of the current Israeli government utterly opposes the creation of an independent Palestinian state, don't you?  Their stance is not only the complete elimination of Palestine, but the "transference" of all non-Jews from the territories.  Does this mean that Israel also qualifies for a beating?

[ralphwiggum 6]

now we made some progress.

although Hamas represents a small faction, it's action cannot be justified as much as those 1/3 of gov't's denial of peace process can it?

[FSPilot 0]

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]If you can show me where anyone here has said that Hamas is not guilty of killing innocent people then I will stop treating you like a pathetic flame-baiting liar.

You're the one posting how many innocent civilians are killed by Israel. You're just ignoring all of Hamas' civilian targets? Or is it the double standard thing?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]If you can show me where anyone here has said that Hamas is not guilty of killing innocent people then I will stop treating you like a pathetic flame-baiting liar.

You're the one posting how many innocent civilians are killed by Israel.  You're just ignoring all of Hamas' civilian targets?  Or is it the double standard thing?

Okay, check this out:

We've all ready established that Hamas is a terrorist organization that deliberately attacks Israeli civilians. However, we've also established that Hamas is a splinter group that the Palestinian Authority has trouble controlling.

Conversely, the IDF is a part of the Israeli government. That means that whenever a Palestinian civilian dies at the hands of the IDF, that is a de facto state-sanctioned murder. However, when Hamas goes after Israelis, that's a loose-cannon terrorist group, not a government. See where I'm going with this?

At any rate, I think we can all agree that, right or wrong, killing Palestinians in retaliation to the deaths of Israelis isn't going to solve anything.

[FSPilot 0]

Tex USMC

Quote[/b] ]We've all ready established that Hamas is a terrorist organization that deliberately attacks Israeli civilians. However, we've also established that Hamas is a splinter group that the Palestinian Authority has trouble controlling.

Conversely, the IDF is a part of the Israeli government. That means that whenever a Palestinian civilian dies at the hands of the IDF, that is a de facto state-sanctioned murder. However, when Hamas goes after Israelis, that's a loose-cannon terrorist group, not a government. See where I'm going with this?

I see where you're going, but I don't fully agree with it. Hamas is targetting civilians. Israel is killing them accidentally. Just because civilians die at the hand of Israel, no matter how inexcusable it is, it doesn't put them at the same level as Hamas.

Quote[/b] ]At any rate, I think we can all agree that, right or wrong, killing Palestinians in retaliation to the deaths of Israelis isn't going to solve anything.

And killing Israelis in retaliation to the deaths of Palestinians won't either. That's the problem, both sides think the other side started it.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]I see where you're going, but I don't fully agree with it.  Hamas is targetting civilians.  Israel is killing them accidentally.  Just because civilians die at the hand of Israel, no matter how inexcusable it is, it doesn't put them at the same level as Hamas.

The indiscriminate nature of the attacks certainly would suggest otherwise. Firing high-explosive rockets at cars in crowded urban areas is not exactly conducive to minimizing civilian casualties. From simple observation it's fairly easy to come to the conclusion that, at best, the IDF doesn't care about collateral damage, and at worst, actually tries to squeeze a few civilians into the body count here and there.

Quote[/b] ]And killing Israelis in retaliation to the deaths of Palestinians won't either. That's the problem, both sides think the other side started it.

But let's face it, Israel's in the best situation to take the first step towards peace. They've got the upper hand, they've got the firepower, and they've got the infrastructure. The Palestinians on the other hand have no hope as it is, so why not fight?

[Bernadotte 0]

although Hamas represents a small faction, it's action cannot be justified as much as those 1/3 of gov't's denial of peace process can it?

Being critical of a democratic institution like the Israeli government is very different from justifying the actions of Hamas.  I'm sure this is obvious to you but unfortunately it remains a rather difficult concept for many.

Futhermore, that 1/3 of the Israeli government does not deny a peace process.  They simply wish to deny the Palestinians statehood in Judea and Samaria, what the rest of the world calls the West Bank.  They want the land without the inhabitants and they will do anything to get rid of the inhabitants as long as it does not jeopardise the $3 billion that the US sends them each year. (Therefore, no deportations or mass exterminations.)  Realising this is the first important step towards understanding what is really going on over there.

[CAT_SHET_ONE_MM 0]

hey wasn't there a guy from Palestine somewhere in the forums? or was it over at the POLWAR in www.ofpec.com? It seems like they have some infrastructure if he was telling the truth. But that's if he was really telling the truth or just wanted to get some fame Anyways, I believe in right and wrong since that's what our values are in the US and that's what sets the moral standard here in US........ well I don't know if Guam is exactly a part of US though.... :P hey I have an US passport so anyways, from learning the history of how much hell and bullshit the Israeli's had to go through..... I guess it's alright for them to have an independant state of theirs... ofcourse as long as they allow the independent palestinian state though wait did anyone say that they can't have it? hmm... well what ever.

awwww God why do these brothers have to kill each other.... should the US go in and put a gun on both Israel and Palestines head? Damn I wish that happens somedays and don't see these Israeli and Palestinian news dominating CNN over here in Guam. I want to see more Guam stuffs

[USSoldier11B 0]

Summary: 500+ pages of argument on who is right in Israel.

That's not going to solve anything. Both sides are making a lot of mistakes. Like I said before, there are certain elements of both sides that need this conflict to thrive. They don't know or want anything else. All I know is that it's the innocent people who are losing.

[Longinius 1]

On a side note, I dont know if you remember but a while ago an American woman was killed in Israel while demonstrating against Israel knocking down Palestinian buildings. She was killed by a bulldozer while it was taking down the buildings.

The IDF have now come to the conclusion that it was an accident not caused by the bulldozer or the fact that it ran her over, but apparently caused by the debris the bulldozer was shifting (!). So now disciplinary actions will be taken against the soldiers.

[Tamme 0]

Red Cross announced in Thursday that the war has now lasted for 1000 days and has taken over 3000 victims. There are nearly ten times more wounded. About 3 of 4 victims are palestinians.

If you ask me it's Israel that's killing more civilians than Hamas. Sure Hamas is intentionally targeting civilians, but Israel really doesn't care about civilian casualties either.