Submarine help

[cozza 24]

I need help. I'm trying to identfy this submarine which was sported on the south coast of Australia. The Newspaper says its unmarked.

Submarine picture *Over 100kb*

[theavonlady 2]

Captain Nemo Lives!

[denoir 0]

That's a regular Collins class sub. Property of the Aussie Navy. Designed in Sweden, I might add.

[cozza 24]

ok thanks. Looks 100% like it.

If a mod can lock this thread

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Designed in Sweden, I might add.

Nothing to be proud about!

[denoir 0]

It's not pride, it's just recollection. The Collins class is based on the Gotland and Västrgötland class subs from which I did a dozen or so of dives from during my military service.

From a diver's point of view, there's nothing positive I can say about Gotland - it has a too small exit hach and your gear gets inevitably stuck.

[redface 1]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/collins/images/collins5.jpg

this is what submarines in OFP are sorely missing: whitewash water around them to simulate force and weight (e.g. when they are diving or going up)

now we have submarines like cutting through butter

a plea to the scripting gods out/up there ...

[Acecombat 0]

Is it diesel or nuclear powered? Or maybe both?

One question , are there any external model differences in said nuclear and diesel subs? SO that you can tell just by looking at it.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Is it diesel or nuclear powered? Or maybe both?

One question , are there any external model differences in said nuclear and diesel subs? SO that you can tell just by looking at it.

Looks far too small for a nuclear sub, has to be diesel/electric.

[denoir 0]

Is it diesel or nuclear powered?

It's a diesel-electric sub. Only the US, Russia, France and UK have nuclear subs.

Quote[/b] ]Or maybe both?

It's one or the other. If you have a reactor there's no need for a diesel engine.

Quote[/b] ]One question , are there any external model differences in said nuclear and diesel subs? SO that you can tell just by looking at it.

In theory there doesn't be a difference. In practice however, you don't build in reactors into small subs - it would be a waste. So in most cases you can tell it externally by the size of it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

There is not only these 2 types. Germany and greece are using subs with fuel cells.

212A / 214

e.g. the U31 has an air-independent propulsion system using a silent hydrogen/oxygen fuel cell system which not only makes the submarine more difficult to detect, but also increases the time it can stay submerged.

The new submarine class 212a or the advanced model 214 developed by HDW is characterized by an air-independent propulsion system using the hydrogen fuel cell. The german HDW is thus the first shipyard in the world to offer a fuel cell propulsion system ready for series production. The Siemens proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell plant, which produces electrical energy from oxygen and hydrogen, permits the new class of submarines to cruise under water for weeks without surfacing.

Conventional diesel-electric submarines have used up their battery power after about two days cruising under water. In addition, the fuel cell makes no noise and produces no give-away exhaust heat. The factors help to make the submarine virtually undetectable.

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30 and 50kW each.

For higher speeds, connection is made to the high-performance lead acid battery. An MTU 16 V- 396 diesel engine powers the generator for charging the battery installed on the lower of the two decks at the forward section of the submarine. The diesel generator plant is mounted on a swinging deck platform with double elastic mounts for noise and vibration isolation. The propeller motor is directly coupled to the seven-bladed screwback propeller.

[denoir 0]

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage.

That's one thing I don't get about fuel cells - why not just extract the hydrogen from water? In subs it seems especially silly to carry tanks o H and O when you have an endless supply of H2O just outside the hatch..

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

maybe the required purification process of the water would require more space than the tanks!

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

In practice however, you don't build in reactors into small subs - it would be a waste.

I'd say that the french Rubis/Amethyste SSN class subs are VERY small... actually, the smallest nuclear-powered subs, if I'm not mistaken... their size does not betray the fact that they're nuclear-powered, IMO...

[Acecombat 0]

@Denoir

Thanks for the reply.

Quote[/b] ]It's a diesel-electric sub. Only the US, Russia, France and UK have nuclear subs.

Hmm but havent other countries got them too like CHina? I think i even heard Pakistan getting a few they made with french co-operation it was called a Augustus class sub or something like that?

Quote[/b] ]It's one or the other. If you have a reactor there's no need for a diesel engine.

Ok , i guess Tom Clancy was stretching fiction to its limits when he gave red October a dual mode engine? According to the book it was nuclear and diesel capable. Btw shouldnt there be one engine and two different fuel intakes? I mean the nuke and diesel are only power sources , they dont effect the way the machines work or do they?

[havocsquad 0]

Some Nuclear submarines do have a backup diesel generator that they can use to provide emergency power to limp back to port or provide enough power to keep the submarine comfortable and send distress signal for a rescue/tow.

I'm not sure if the Typhoon SSBN's have a diesel backup, I think some of the U.S. SSN's do have a diesel backup.

If in doubt, research. www.fas.org is a good place to start.

Hope this helps.

Later,

Havoc.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's a diesel-electric sub. Only the US, Russia, France and UK have nuclear subs.

Hmm but havent other countries got them too like CHina? I think i even heard Pakistan getting a few they made with french co-operation it was called a Augustus class sub or something like that?

Sorry, China as well of course.

As for Pakistan, not that I know of - at least not in operation.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

It's one or the other. If you have a reactor there's no need for a diesel engine.

Ok , i guess Tom Clancy was stretching fiction to its limits when he gave red October a dual mode engine? According to the book it was nuclear and diesel capable.

Yes.

Quote[/b] ]

Btw shouldnt there be one engine and two different fuel intakes? I mean the nuke and diesel are only power sources , they dont effect the way the machines work or do they?

Nah, they're radically different. In the diesel case you have a combustion engine. In the nuclear case you have a reactor that is connected to steam turbines that run the propeller. In the electrical case, you have bigass batteries connected to an electrical motor that runs the show.

[denoir 0]

Some Nuclear submarines do have a backup diesel generator that they can use to provide emergency power to limp back to port or provide enough power to keep the submarine comfortable and send distress signal for a rescue/tow.

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. Nuclear subs have batteries for reserve power. I don't know of one single example of a sub that has both diesel and nuclear generators, and I know subs pretty well.

Ayway, it's not strange at all, if you think about it. Diesel engines are quite large and on submarines space is always the primary design issue. Not to mention that you'd have to carry the fuel as well.

Quote[/b] ]I'm not sure if the Typhoon SSBN's have a diesel backup, I think some of the U.S. SSN's do have a diesel backup.

The Typhoons have two reactors, but no diesel.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Ok , i guess Tom Clancy was stretching fiction to its limits when he gave red October a dual mode engine? According to the book it  was nuclear and diesel capable.

As far as I recall at no time did Tom Clancy mention that the "Red October" had dual mode engine being both diesel and nuclear. Normal propulsion without using the reactors would have been via electric motors at best. The special thing about the "Red October" was in dual propulsion system, the sub having besides the normal two propellers a magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion system, which worked with electromagnetic properties and was like a jet-engine for water but with no moving parts hence it was very quiet.

[Swordsmanb 0]

Ok , i guess Tom Clancy was stretching fiction to its limits when he gave red October a dual mode engine? According to the book it  was nuclear and diesel capable.

Sure? Okay, it's been a while since I read the book, but I can't remember anything about a diesel engine... it had the silent propulsion system ("caterpiller drive"), but diesel??? I think it would be totally unrealistic to give the sub THREE different types of propulsion...

In the nuclear case you have a reactor that is connected to steam turbines that run the propeller

Hmmm... I read somewhere that the turbines don't directly run the propeller but charge the batteries for an electric engine which is connected to the propeller. Or are there different types?

[Akira 0]

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage.

That's one thing I don't get about fuel cells - why not just extract the hydrogen from water? In subs it seems especially silly to carry tanks o H and O when you have an endless supply of H2O just outside the hatch..

I guess it would depend on how one goes about it. The greatest advantage of a diesel sub is it is quiet. To get to the outside water one would have to have some mechanism to get the water from outside, to the inside. Generally this would require a hatch, presumably that one can open and close when needed. This of course will make noise. Also, depending on speed the in rush of water will certainly make detectable noise.

I'm sure with the level of technology available it is certainly possible, but I would question 1) its noise levels, 2)are you saving space by taking cells out for the extraction mechanism, and 3)do you gain some form of operational increase because of it?

Just my 2 cents.

[Acecombat 0]

Hmm i am pretty sure at one time during the book when Captain Ramuis the subs skipper decided to fake the whole reactor leak thingy and then told the engineers to switch to diesel mode.

The propulsion system (caterpillar) is different its got nothing to do with the engine or did it?

[Akira 0]

Hmm i am pretty sure at one time during the book when Captain Ramuis the subs skipper decided to fake the whole reactor leak thingy and then told the engineers to switch to diesel mode.

The propulsion system (caterpillar) is different its got nothing to do with the engine or did it?

The catapillar was a propulsion system of its own, possibly run by battery or diesel....it was mentioned that the Red October was something 12 feet (or more) longer then the normal typhoon.

Aside from that fictionous sub, subs have either nuclear/battery power or diesel/battery power.

[kavoven 4]

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage.

That's one thing I don't get about fuel cells - why not just extract the hydrogen from water? In subs it seems especially silly to carry tanks o H and O when you have an endless supply of H2O just outside the hatch..

Easy answer ;) (I was in Eckernförde, where the submarine is based with my class and there was a nice presentation about the submarine )

You can store much more hydrogen in somekind of metal, because the hydrogen atoms fit very well between the metal atoms(I think it was Fe or Al or something like that)

And I think the whole thing is cooled down, but I'm not shure.

So, the hydrogen in the water needs much more space.

But the on the other hand, you can't extract it from water during the diving, because this needs as much energy as the fuel cell produces. You call it elektrolyse in german, I don't know the english expression.

[Swordsmanb 0]

Hmm i am pretty sure at one time during the book when Captain Ramuis the subs skipper decided to fake the whole reactor leak thingy and then told the engineers to switch to diesel mode.

Hmmm... as I said I can't remember that exactly but I think they used battery power...

Can't anybody post a quote here of that passage of the book!?