human rights for the al-queda terrorists

[Delfia 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me put to you a hypothetical situation, one far more plausable than "Mammy and daddy have somehow been legally hassled and killed someone;"

A man draws a gun in a bank, grabs money and starts shooting, and kills. When he is captured he threatens to kill any witnesses who testify. It comes out later that he has a previous record of violence, including against people who testified against him at a previous trial, what do you do with him?<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, let me put you even a MORE plausible situation. SOMEBODY draws a gun in a bank, grabs money, starts shooting and kills in Texas. Police rush to the scene and investigates. The media goes crazy when the investigation lasts for weeks without arrests. Finally a black man with a previous record of violence is arrested. Since he is poor, he gets a crappy lawyer. The court finds him guilty and the judge sentences him to death, filled with godly wrath. The media and public are ecstatic as the man is put to death. Politicians get re-elected.

The only thing that you can be sure about is that SOMEBODY killed a lot of people and that the government killed one human being as a retaliatory action. (Heh. Reminds me of the War on Terror, except the retaliatory action didn's waste just one dupe.)

If he was innocent, put yourself in his place and think how it must feel to win the national death lottery. (That's right. It can happen to you too, even if you're not black.) If he was guilty, well, it sure as hell tortures you more to be locked up for life than to be painlessly offed.

You can NEVER absolutely prove whether somebody is guilty or not.

[Stag 0]

No? How about he is captured at the scene with the smoking gun in his hand? he never leaves the sight of the witnesses?

Oh, I know; They all have a grudge against him.

[Delfia 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

No? How about he is captured at the scene with the smoking gun in his hand? he never leaves the sight of the witnesses?

Oh, I know; They all have a grudge against him.<span id='postcolor'>

This almost NEVER happens, you know, so this kind of argument cannot be used when discussing general policy. Besides, what if some moron just picked up a dropped gun just before the cops stormed in? Or the witnesses just wanted to get somebody punished and picked a random innocent bloke from the line-up to blame (happened to my friend), what then?

BESIDES, even if he is bloody guilty, inprisonment is both more humane and more punishing than death penalty. What distinguishes "normal" people from the criminals is that they should not use inhumane means even when confronted by an enemy using inhumane means. Also, sometimes people actually stop being bad in the slammer and live perfectly lawfully ever after (quite rare I admit).

By the way, if I was captured on the scene with the smoking gun in my hand, I'd know I have nothing to lose, because I'm going to get the chair anyway. So I'd just blaze away and try to waste as many cops as possible, before they got me. There's more dignity in dying like that than getting butchered like an animal.

[Longinius 1]

"Come up with a viable alternative, fine. Until then save your compassion for the victims, or don't they count?"

The alternative ofcourse is no death penalty. Alternative to the current jails would be more like schools where the criminals actually learn something creative and get help. Most people are not criminals just for the heck of it, it is caused by personal problems. If those are never solved I doubt the person becomes lawabiding.

"As for killing in self defence; don't be so bloody niave; there is all the difference in the world between some bastard attacking you with intent to take your life and you using any means to prevent him. "

Ofcourse there is, which was my point. But how would YOU know what happened in a court room? I could be sentenced for a murder when it was actually selfdefence.

"And what would you do with those people that don't want to reform; the ones who are paroled and go on to to kill and rape again?"

Don't parol them.

"You want them around your house, family and children, great, but I don't want them anywhere near mine."

If you think anyone wants that, you are not only stupid, but you are also trolling for idiotic replies.

[Stag 0]

"The alternative ofcourse is no death penalty. Alternative to the current jails would be more like schools where the criminals actually learn something creative and get help. Most people are not criminals just for the heck of it, it is caused by personal problems. If those are never solved I doubt the person becomes lawabiding."

Hell yeah, do that tomorrow, after you've assembled the cold fusion reactor.

"Ofcourse there is, which was my point. But how would YOU know what happened in a court room? I could be sentenced for a murder when it was actually selfdefence."

The court is to ascertain guilt. as for sentancing I can't be bothered to repeat myself.

"Don't parol them."

Too late.

"If you think anyone wants that, you are not only stupid, but you are also trolling for idiotic replies."

Guess it worked then.

[Longinius 1]

"Hell yeah, do that tomorrow, after you've assembled the cold fusion reactor."

Yeah, I suppose it is so much better not to bother with it, to leave it as is, since it works so marvelously well and all.

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Jan. 16 2002,17:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Hell yeah, do that tomorrow, after you've assembled the cold fusion reactor."

Yeah, I suppose it is so much better not to bother with it, to leave it as is, since it works so marvelously well and all.<span id='postcolor'>

You know as well as I do that it doesn't work well at all. But

I actually believe that a solution will evolve in time. From previous experience, attempting to implement revolutionary theory doesn't work very well.

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"The alternative ofcourse is no death penalty. Alternative to the current jails would be more like schools where the criminals actually learn something creative and get help. Most people are not criminals just for the heck of it, it is caused by personal problems. If those are never solved I doubt the person becomes lawabiding."

Hell yeah, do that tomorrow, after you've assembled the cold fusion reactor.

<span id='postcolor'>

i once nearly killed a man when angry, i also thought of killing many more...i could beat down people for silly reasons, as once for interupting me while i was talking to someone else.

then a number of things happened and i changed, now i cant imagine beating down anyone except in pure selfdefence...now im a peacefull person (as i quess u can see by my posts), i learned that violence solves nothing, proves nothing and changes nothing.

you could say i turned from a devil to a saint (no, im not religious).

thats a true story, actually...im sure none of you can even imagine what a potential danger to my surrounding i once was.

if i could change so much (i was not in jail or at a phsycologist) by myself, dont you think a prisoner with the same kind of backround can change with outside help?

todays prison system is just that you remove the "bad guy" for a set time, and then let him out again....he is either the same as before or worse.

thats what i quess longinus meant...teach them a new way to see life, teach them what to value in life.

[Guest]

OK, the guy who beats and rapes a 79-year-old grandmother should be talked nice to and given a place to "grow" so he can become a better person.

I'd love to hear you people talking this lilly bull when someone does something bad to YOUR family.

[Satchel 0]

Maybe also a point to consider;

murderers/rapists costing the tax payer money when brought in jail for a life sentence, by executing them it´s a cheap way out, a question of economy...

However, some death candidates are waiting years in the death row before being executed.

Crime almost always emerges out of social deficits or unemployment resulting in poverty. Instead of countering this misbalance by taken precautions on educational, social and employment levels, the U.S. under Bush is spending large amounts of the tax payers money on the army.

An very old saying goes; "You can´t cure a disease without knowing and treating it´s cause", sadly noone in the current U.S. Government seems to have heard of this.

The 11.09. is used to justify the increase of defence spendings even more, the U.S. on it´s course to fight against windmills that will suck in billlions and billions of $. This is why i think Gore would have been the better choice for the US, as he intended to put more budget into schools (education), while improving the political and social systems.

In the long run this is more efficiant, and saves money for the tax payers.

Bush in return as a true texan and republican spends the money to flatten any opposition or signs of problems, sadly many americans seems to go conform with his primate course. Gore displayed himself as a problem solver, by promising to go to the actual roots of the problems, which Bush is not.

I guess his mother couldn´t have made him a more suiting face, he looks like an ape and he acts like one

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OBiJuan @ Jan. 16 2002,18:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK, the guy who beats and rapes a 79-year-old grandmother should be talked nice to and given a place to "grow" so he can become a better person.  

I'd love to hear you people talking this lilly bull when someone does something bad to YOUR family.<span id='postcolor'>

you dont get it do you?

todays prison:

you get in as a bad guy, you come out as a even worse guy.

the system produces tougher criminals..tell me it aint so if you think im wrong.

dreamland prison:

you get in as a bad guy, you come out as a normal person.

your pretty blind to the reality...do you know how a prison is?

you just sit there, nothing more....you sit there untill the time runs out and then you go home...you do nothing more.

instead of that, a mandatory education, school and going in therapy WHILE in prison would cost more....but it would give a lot better chance that the person who comes out is a different person.

by the way, why you assume that nothing bad happened to my family?...im pretty sure worse things happened to us than to you and your family,but does it make a difference on the legal system or what would be the best solution??

no...it doesnt.

thats the best solution, and i want to see if you have a better solution than your solution that is "put him behind bars, let him sit the time he needs to and then open the doors and let him out"

my solution doesnt make him be any less time in prison, but it gives a far better chance for him to be a better man....

comment, please.

[Guest]

That's funny Satchel. I guess sept. 11 is just an "excuse" huh?

Yeah, Gore would have been a great president! He would planted trees in Afghanistan.

Don't you understand that these people want to kill Americans because they are Americans? It's not even a military thing. They want to KILL CIVILIANS! If you are not them, they want you dead. It's simple as that.

Anyway, back to the death penalty thing. Yeah, people wait forever to be executed because the gov't is SO EVIL that it wants to KILL EVERYONE RIGHT AWAY.

YOu can't have it both ways - you say the gov't is bloodthirsty, yet only 8000 people executed in the past 100 years, despite millions of executable crimes committed. 1000:1 ratio is NOT bloodthirsty at all.

[Guest]

Uh, Pete, I think you're off track here. Or maybe it's me. The discussion was the death penalty, not prison time.

[Pete 1]

Don't you understand that these people want to kill Americans because they are Americans?  It's not even a military thing.  They want to KILL CIVILIANS!  If you are not them, they want you dead.  It's simple as that.

..sure, but as with everything, there is a reason...do you know why they want to kill americans?

YOu can't have it both ways - you say the gov't is bloodthirsty, yet only 8000 people executed in the past 100 years, despite millions of executable crimes committed.  1000:1 ratio is NOT bloodthirsty at all.

you still forget that many of those 8000 were actually innocent...some of the innocent would be alive today if capital punishment would have existed, they might have been set free and allowed to join there families...but hey, death is final.

1000:1 ratio is very bloodthirsty..compare it to a nation where we dont have deathpenalty....you have a funny logic, funny but scary.

Uh, Pete, I think you're off track here.  Or maybe it's me.  The discussion was the death penalty, not prison time.

its about death and prison..about punisments.

see what longinus posted earlier and what replies he got....thats what you replied on, propably without knowing what you were talking about

[Guest]

Well, I guess I'm off track then - this topic went all over the place.

You obviously don't agree with the death penalty, which is fine. We can do this until we are blue in the face.

But, something you wrote confuses me (which is related to the ORIGINAL topic, btw):

..sure, but as with everything, there is a reason...do you know why they want to kill americans?

Would you really care to know why someone wants to kill your entire family? Or would you want to stop them first?

[Stag 0]

Actually the original discussion was about the rights of the Al-Qeda to be classed as Prisoners of War; the Execution and Imprisonment debate is a spinoff from that.

Would you send them to school then let them go?

[Guest]

Getting to the root of the problem is the best way of solving any situation

[Longinius 1]

"OK, the guy who beats and rapes a 79-year-old grandmother should be talked nice to and given a place to "grow" so he can become a better person. "

A guy that beats and rapes a 79 year old grandmother, or anyone at all for that matter probably...

...is mentally ill.

...high on drugs.

...both of the above.

A mentally ill person has to get treatment, he will not get more sane through punishment. A person doing drugs needs to go to detox and then be offered a solution out of his current situation.

Not all criminals can be reformed, but I am quite sure a good percentage could be. At any rate, the goal must surely be that the criminals are not worse when they get out of jail then they were coming in. Today, this isnt the case. A jail is a friggin nexus for growing crime: making new connections, learning new tricks of the trade and getting even MORE pissed of at society.

[Guest]

MonkeyLib: this is how I see it, which is why I disagree:

In your house, family huddled in corned, man with AK-47 pointing it at them.

Do you ask: "What troubles you, fellow?"

So, getting the root is NOT always the best way to solve it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ Jan. 16 2002,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't you understand that these people want to kill Americans because they are Americans?  It's not even a military thing.  They want to KILL CIVILIANS!  If you are not them, they want you dead.  It's simple as that.

..sure, but as with everything, there is a reason...do you know why they want to kill americans?<span id='postcolor'>

(Pete, this is not the way you usually talk!!) no, there is no reason for their agression against America. I dont want to interfer your discussion but you have to understand that the organisation Al-quaida cannot be considered as a mirror of the Arabian heart. They are not defending Arabian values, their aim is not to reach certain Arabian goals. It is rather an introverted organisation, not fed by emotions of the people in their country but by a simple own interpretation of the Quran.

[Guest]

Nicely put Albert. I have a lot to learn from you.

[Pete 1]

@wardog...nice twist

1: if they are pows, they are released after the war is officially over (now?)

2: if they are normal prisoners and sent to jail...would it hurt to try teach some of them to read and write and hope that they know what papers (al-gueda membership) they sign with there X the next time?

@ albert and obijuan.

what i meant is that they do have a "reason" that should have been prevented a long time ago, if you know your neighbour is armed and violent, and he repeatedly tells you that you should stop parking your car on his parkinglot...would you be suprised if he suddenly walks in with a ak47 (after threats to do so).

im not defending the terrorists...but dont you think it is too much of a coinsidence that america, that is a enemy for them (iraq santions, ally to israel etc etc), gets targetted rather than switzerland which is closer and propably a much easier target.

yes there is a reason to hate, but not a justified one....

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ Jan. 16 2002,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes there is a reason to hate, but not a justified one....<span id='postcolor'>

That's fine, Pete. But if it's unjustified, what purpose would there be to knowing the reason? Does it matter if it's not a justified one?

[Satchel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, Gore would have been a great president!  He would planted trees in Afghanistan.<span id='postcolor'>

You obviously didn´t understand what i wrote, what´s a "Gore planting trees in Afghanistan" anecdote  got to do with increased efforts on education, social and political systems instead of spending the biggest chunk on the military?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't you understand that these people want to kill Americans because they are Americans?  It's not even a military thing.  They want to KILL CIVILIANS!  If you are not them, they want you dead.  It's simple as that.

<span id='postcolor'>

What people want to kill americans? Who wants to kill civillians- Afghan people, Taliban? Are you talking about Media made up generalizing phrases for simple minds, i could swear i heard them in the exact manner somewhere on television before.....

The real world is a bit complexer than that, everyone should know better.  

It´s really sad to see some people are still victims of the generalizing black/white scheme caused by media brainwashing. But again what´s your entertaining story got to do with my posting of internal affairs in the US regarding executions and crime?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway, back to the death penalty thing.  Yeah, people wait forever to be executed because the gov't is SO EVIL that it wants to KILL EVERYONE RIGHT AWAY.<span id='postcolor'>  

People are waiting sometimes for a considerable amount of time in the Death Row for their execution because of many reasons, there can be still proceedings initiated by relatives, lawyers or civil persons ongoing, that eventually led to acquittal. That doesn´t change the fact that the majority will be executed with proper media broadcast of the event, even if there are hints that an individual might be unguilty. It´s always better to execute someone, than having to admit that there were sleazy investigations that led to someone being accused of murder and put on death row, questioning the whole process of justice.

For the bloodthirstyness of the US government you interprete into my posts; what is of more cruelty, dying a quick death in split seconds, or having to wait with knowing you will die for sure, that every day could be your last.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">YOu can't have it both ways - you say the gov't is bloodthirsty, yet only 8000 people executed in the past 100 years, despite millions of executable crimes committed.  1000:1 ratio is NOT bloodthirsty at all.<span id='postcolor'>

Did you take into account that the statistics provided are the numbers of crimes that actually occured, and do not reflect the amount cases closed/open, caught suspects etc.

For you i will put it simple:

- No suspect - no arrest - no death row - no execution

- Already dead suspect - no need for execution

- Changed death penalty to life time prison - no need for execution.  

What you don´t have in Death row, you can´t execute, quite simple, isn´t it?

[foxer 0]

There always a reason for wars,and to kill people,I almost got killed the other day,should i have got outta my car and kill the truck driver ? I had a very good reason.Israel civilians(same as the other side) have been getting killed,theres a reason for them to kill Palestinians.There is always a reason for something,but we do not act upon them,because sometimes their wrong.