German Elections

[Apollo 0]

I just saw a report on the German ellections on BBC world ,showing that the traditional party's as the center democrats lost some ground to more far right and far left wing party's.

Especially the thought of an emmerging and growing far right wing party must produce a lot of controversy in Germany given it's cultural and pshychological feeling's on it's past ,and yet such controversy combined with an opposition positions is a element that really can aid such a party in it's growth.

Belgium has virtualy the strongest far right wing party in Europe since World war 2 ,The Flemmish block has a support of about 30% of the Belgian voters and has become one of the largest party ,it mainly got this growth due to an opposition possition and campaigning against immigration/immigrants.

The fact that there is a "cordon sannitaire" in Belgium (an understanding between all other party's in Belgium to never make a coalition with the Flemmish block) aided to the controversy and actually poppularity of this party ,the flemmish block even grew a few points after being prosecuted and foud guilty by Belgian justice on crimes of racism.

What i want to ask mainly to German people is how they feel about this party and it's possition of ideoligy withing the national consiounce of Germany's History.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Point 1: Only in 1 state the extreme right is gaining ground.

Point 2: No more than 9% of the voters went for the right wing party in that state. In healthy states they dont even get 1%

Point 3: This party is under constant observation by our secret service. The most extreme comment they dare to say publicly is "we dont want german money to be invested in foreign countries"

Point 4: It is a damn poor and useless state anyway!

Point 5: During the election the exteme left won even more votes. In other words, it was a vote against the ruling parties and most people rather prefered to move left than right.

Point 6: Germany is the country with the weakest right wing parties in europe. They have been stronger in the past and are loosing ground ever since.

[Balschoiw 0]

First: The elections you talk about have been held in the former DDR countries where there is a lot of civil unrest and unemployment.

There are currently major changes going on in unenployment financing and people can be told to take a job next year, even if it doesn´t fit their interests. That´s good imo.

Now if you look at the unemployment rates in the so called "Neue Bundesländer" you get the idea why people oppose that developement and radical parties were able to take advantage of that. I won´t say that citizens of the former DDR are politically uneducated but it looks like that pretty much. In the former DDR they didn´t have problems with finding a job as it was guaranteed to them by the former SED government but this system went down as it was not working. They just made no money with that system and it went bankrupt.

But still eastern germans think that the country has to grant everything to them as they were used to that.

Well, everyone with a little brains knows that it won´t work that way. It´s personal initiative that is asked for, not relying on a government to pay for them for the rest of their lives.

That´s why radical parties took advantage of the situation by using simple rudimentary paroles to catch some voters.

They just use the stupidity of these germans to their own benefit.

The political effects of their participation in local governments is zero. This has been shown before. The representants of the right wing parties are just stupid and so are there initiatives in those countries. They have no political role as they are incompetent. They do not contribute to the countries or help the citizens who voted for them. They are representants of an ugly mob and share the same intelligence...

Of course politicians are aware of the rising support for that assholes and there are intiatives to get rid of them. But most of them will sort themselves out with alcohol....

Idiots.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

You wouldnt believe but they dont even have OFP there, I mean look at Bastlers Maniac Locator !

No, back on the track... This election wont change much. The movement of competent easterners going to the west will continue.

History since 1989 has shown that some eastern cities are able to survive and flourish a little, like Rostock.. and others are simply getting worse every day. The smart part of the population leaves those cities and tries to find education&profession elsewhere. What remains are ugly ruins of communistic multi-flat buildings and people without jobs have to live in them. It is a sad life I tell you.

I mean look at those images and decide yourself... would you like to live here?

So what remains are mostly frustrated people that complain that we westerners dont give our money to them, that is how it used to work in communism.

Now the west is pretty much financially drained off and we dont want to finance them anymore, nor do we want to share everything with them. So far they didnt have to learn their lesson. Now the message from ALL ruling parties is:

"you got 2 healty legs and 2 healty arms", go find a job or you will soon have to starve a little more.

Of course the valid reply is.. I am cant find a job, keep sharing your money with us, you have enough anyway.

People dont get that because of this problem communism broke down. NO MORE MONEY TO SHARE.

[joltan 0]

Bals & Albert: That kind of attitude is exactly what drove the people to the extremist parties (be it left or right). Callling Sachsen a 'useless state' (with Dresden & Leipzig being among the few 'boom towns' in the whole East) and the people there 'lazy' or 'stupid' is plain ignorance.

People don't get any work because there isn't - not because they wouldn't want to. You don't have any more people abusing the social security there than you have in the West. If they get work they get paid less, but everything else costs about the same (housing is a bit cheaper usually). People in western Germany - even in comparable poor regions with 30% unemplyment like Ostfriesland - get higher wages and pensions.

Politicians lied far to long about the 'blühenden Landschaften' etc. - and since then also failed to address the problems we have in this country everywhere (and not just in the former GDR). They got their payment in these elections.

Since my girl started working in the former East I've had some insights there that made me fundamentally rethink my own prejudices. Prejudices that many people from western Germany have - especially if they (like me) never had any family over there.

It's sad that people resorted to voting for demagoges (sp?) and radikals like the DVU or NPD, but don't paint them as stupid or start thinking 'typically Ossies'. The DVU headquarters are in Munich from where the party is controlled in a very direct manner. Also don't forget the Republikaner in the Landtag of Baden-Württemberg a few years ago... Voting for radicals in elections out of revenge is nothing new or limited to any region in Germany (or to Germany itself - just look at France or the UK).

Edit: the real problem is when what starts as a protest gains widespread acceptance and momentum. That is how Hitler came into power, remember?

[mr_rOk 0]

There's a long way to go for someone like Hitler to appear...in the 30's jobs weren't the only problem at which he played his music...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The only difference between them and me is that THEY want ME to pay more taxes to finance their unemployment.

I live in Berlin so I have a pretty good feeling of what their attitude is like. I feel insulted when they openly tell me that I MUST share my money because WE live in a social state. One day the sympathy has to end.

I can assure you that if you shorten their money and they would have to starve they would quickly do something about it.

And I worked in other countries before to be able to judge... life sucks.. you got to work to survive and you must fight to find a job... if you cant find one then move to Africa or Brasil but dont settle untill you find one.

In the west we have people that are unemployed too. But most of them blame the bad economy, they blame the bad educational system, they blame bad economical politics, but they dont blame the greedy rich people that MUST share their money.

And yes, there is thousands of hard working people here in Berlin that work for LESS than the unemployment money. Simply because they want to work, they want to improve and they dont want to complain or parasite. And MANY moved here from the former Eastern States. (just like the girl I like most)

But there is a group that can only complain.. may the rot in hell! Cheers!

[joltan 0]

Right, but if it hadn't been for Dresden or Leipzig the right wing NPD would have been second strongest party in that state. Not to mention the PDS in Brandenburg... We're not talking about radicals getting just a few seats, but being strong enough to constute a faction ('Fraktion') and thus having quite some influence (seats in all important comitees, etc.).

It's something to watch out for. With some luck they will prove that there's nothing more than words to their slogans (like they did in Baden-Württemberg). But if the governing parties continue to fail the radicals will stabilize and continue to build up more support.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Joltan, the logic of your argumentation is totally correct and if this would be a real productive discussion I would be more objective.

BUT, I am not complaining about the vote, it was nothing but a rebellion against SPD and CDU (strongest national parties). But the intention behind the election is clear: "F.UCK YOU WEST GERMANY!"

[Balschoiw 0]

...and judged by the guys I had as recruits coming from former DDR I can say that their attitude towards self initiative, effort and the willingness to take control of their own lifes is really dissapointing. They expect everything done for them with little to no initiative from their side. It never will work that way. If you can´t get a job in the countries in question and are young, why the hell don´t they just pack their bags and move to places where work is still available. It´s not that there are no jobs. It´s the unwillingness to accomodate to the given situation. And I´m really sorry, but to blame it all on foreigners that are sooo guilty that they don´t get jobs is very stupid, but still they do it.

I had to move around a lot for my job and if I´m ordered to move to another international country I have to do so. While they complain, complain and complain they show no initiative other than waving some stupid flags and repeating 3rd Reich phrases...phrases with no meaning and no substance. Just bullshit.

Of course, not all are that way and I don´t want that you think that way about me, but the mob we get presented at the stupid Montagsdemos are not what I would call the "elite".

I also have friends from the former DDR but they took their life into their hands and didn´t expect anyone to finance their life and lean back. That´s the basic difference.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Montagsdemo!    No kidding but they moved through the street where our company is. (Rosenthaler) 50% of them wave the former DDR-flag, some are from ATTAC (protest against everything) and the rest was alternative people demonstrating agains the "Rich Motherf..." I mean, what is the message of this demonstration?  

Our boss told us that is forbidden to throw cigarettes from our balcony here, except if the Montagsdemo is passing by!

[raedor 8]

i can agree with joltan in the most points here. as a person who lived six years in the GDR (from '96 to '02) i know that Bals' and Albert's first posts about people of the former GDR are not correct. they only show the ignorance of the people who never rellay dealt with the GDR. the people in the GDR are not all lazy, radical and dumb. but that's what the "normal" west german thinks is the attitude of the east germans. and they all have to pay as much as we west germans do.

no insult here to you, Albert and Bals, i know & like you, but you should better live some years there before you comment on the situation there in such a undifferentiated way. i know, there are some people like you describe 'em, but that's a small minority.

[kavoven 4]

I watched the news yesterday evening when the first results of the vote were published, and I was really upset about it. in Sachsen the SPD(Soziale Partei Deutschland) received just 0.4 % more than the NPD(Nationale Partei Deutschland, which is comparable with the NSDAP). That's horrible in my opionen, and if you search for a way to protest, then that's really the wrong one.

A few weeks ago, there was a public opinion poll in a well known german magazine. 24% of the West-German people want the wall back, and I think 18 % of the East-Germans. I think that explains how the relations between West and East are. But I share the opinion of Bals and Albert Schweizer. Many people in the East are simply to lazy to search for a job. But if you look at the social system here, you can't expect more. Our domestic help (the women who helps cleaning our house) says, that she must be really stupid, because she es working. She would get the same ammount of money, if she just reported herself as unemployed.

A few days ago, our federal president, Horst Köhler, said in an interview with the 'Focus' that there'll never be the same conditions in West AND East Germany. I agree with that, because if you see, how many billions of Euro's the government transfers every year to support East-Germany... that's amazing. And the resluts? In most cases there are no results, people just sit there and wait for their money given to them by the state, therefor that they don't work.

Edit:

@raedor

If it's a small minority, how do you explain, that we have a 10% higher unemploymentrate in many East-German countries(Bundesländer)?

[joltan 0]

I'll answer with a quesion, too: and where should those people work? Moving over to the west won't help them much: jobs are as rare in Bayern and Baden-Württemberg as they are in Sachsen or Brandenburg. People had work and lost it when the industries that employed them got 'abgewickelt'. What has been missing since then was the massive creation of sufficient jobs for all those people. That's why you have 10% more people without a job than in most other regions.

But I cited the example of Ostfriesland: it's in the west, they have 30% unemployment - and once the Mayer-Werft shuts its doors and moves to where they can build even bigger ships the rate will rise even more. Of course, people there are lazy, too. Right....

[raedor 8]

@kavo: ok, that's one more really easy way of living if you see all things that way. do you think people in East Germany do not want to work? there are no jobs, so they can't work. to your domestic help: she seems to be a bit uninformed. as long as she works she gets money for her "rente". when she reported herself as unemployed she wont get that money. most upper and middle class germans seem to think that unemployed = lazy. but if that's your opinion, keep on posting... i'll ignore your posts in this thread then. maybe some of you can remember that the USA gave the west german tons of money the years after WW2... russia took some infrastructure (railsways) and so on from the GDR. i hope you see that it's no wonder when the west germans have more money and so on...

[Charon-VW:BB- 0]

Hmmm i think that the problems we have to deal with today and in near future are the results of a policy which failed to reach it's main goals. Look who votes the right wing parties: Young unemployed man (and a few women too) and old people who love to read the Bildzeitung, love to talk with their "Kameraden" about the good old days but that's for me a minority, too!(which grows and grows). I have relatives in the former DDR and i fairly can say that they aren't lazy or one of the right wing voters. But the problem is that the politicians failed to support the youth over there. Because i don't think that the "Stammtisch-Sprüche" of those Apfels and Birnen etc. would work for people in that kind of way somewhere else. But perhaps this could be a dream because even in Saarland the NPD got more votes than they should have get. We aren't safe for nazism anywhere! If you want to be proud of your country no problem but don't take it so serious. I don't want to repeat the simple sentences "Every men is the same" etc. because everyone should know it. And everyone who thinks that he is better than others are a bloody idiot who should go through all the painfull inventions that former idiots with the same thoughts have build. For me they are the real "Vaterlandsverräter" ... because of their opinion there are still people who believe that in germany nazism is ruling the nation. Nonsense!

And back to topic: If you start over and over again this "Ossi/Wessi" -conflict it won't get any better only worst. It's not possible to bring back the Wall and that's it and it's the best way (look at north and south korea!). And everyone who tells you that the DDR was better than the BRD would have told you the same after the war. That's stupid. (same with the montagsdemos)

By the way: I think iam in the middle class ;)! It's only the minority who oversalted the soup.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

i can agree with joltan in the most points here. as a person who lived six years in the GDR (from '96 to '02) i know that Bals' and Albert's first posts about people of the former GDR are not correct. they only show the ignorance of the people who never rellay dealt with the GDR. the people in the GDR are not all lazy, radical and dumb. but that's what the "normal" west german thinks is the attitude of the east germans. and they all have to pay as much as we west germans do.

no insult here to you, Albert and Bals, i know & like you, but you should better live some years there before you comment on the situation there in such a undifferentiated way. i know, there are some people like you describe 'em, but that's a small minority.

Raedor, I am not insulting the people of the former GDR, that is nonesense and you know it. I know lots of people that packed their things and went elsewhere to look for a job or education. And I guess so did you. These people are 50% of the working population of Berlin and I wouldnt dare to insult them at any way. I dont even insult unemployed people. WHAT I HATE however is the constant feeling that there must be someone to blame for the misery and that voting in protest does anyone harm. Schroeder doesnt care if these people vote for the former communists, the CDU doesnt care and so do most people outside the state. The only ones that will suffer from it are the actual voters.

PDS has absolutely NO competence in attracting foreign companies, they have NO competence in attracting wealthy people or create the right cultural environment to upgrade cities.

Gotta go!

[der bastler 0]

Seems I've to quit my job and become a prophet. Why did I know that such a thread would emerge?

[raedor 8]

i can agree with joltan in the most points here. as a person who lived six years in the GDR (from '96 to '02) i know that Bals' and Albert's first posts about people of the former GDR are not correct. they only show the ignorance of the people who never rellay dealt with the GDR. the people in the GDR are not all lazy, radical and dumb. but that's what the "normal" west german thinks is the attitude of the east germans. and they all have to pay as much as we west germans do.

no insult here to you, Albert and Bals, i know & like you, but you should better live some years there before you comment on the situation there in such a undifferentiated way. i know, there are some people like you describe 'em, but that's a small minority.

Raedor, I am not insulting the people of the former GDR, that is nonesense and you know it. I know lots of people that packed their things and went elsewhere to look for a job or education. And I guess so did you. These people are 50% of the working population of Berlin and I wouldnt dare to insult them at any way. I dont even insult unemployed people. WHAT I HATE however is the constant feeling that there must be someone to blame for the misery and that voting in protest does anyone harm. Schroeder doesnt care if these people vote for the former communists, the CDU doesnt care and so do most people outside the state. The only ones that will suffer from it are the actual voters.

PDS has absolutely NO competence in attracting foreign companies, they have NO competence in attracting wealthy people or create the right cultural environment to upgrade cities.

Gotta go!

hey, so we are the same opinion. i did not try to excuse the results of the election in any way. i know all what you're saying here. i just wanted to show that the east germans are not lazy little bastards which try to get money from west germans.

btw: i'm west german, i only lived "there" for some years.

[kavoven 4]

That an interesting point:

You say, that there are no jobs.

How is it possible, that many workers come from Poland to work in East Germany, when there're no jobs? Just because East German(but even more West-Germans!!!!) don't want to work for 5 Euro per Hour, or even less. That's the point. In the TV you see many people protesting against Harz 4, why? Because they would have to search for a job in January 2005.

[joltan 0]

Look whoever believes those Hartz IV demonstrations were 'spontaneous' is blind. As you might be aware there were just elections (which is what this thread is about). Notice how this week there were only a handfull of people compared to the last weeks?

All that 'the polish find enough jobs here' crap is utter bullshit. Notice how they don't have to live here, but just work here for a short time: most are seasonal workers in agriculture or in construction - the latter are there because german construction companies subcontract the actual work out to cheaper polish companies. The latter leading to the ruin of german companies and more people on the dole. Now you could say that this is just because german workers are too expensive: well, thanks to the secondary costs (health insurance, pensions, etc) they are. Do you want the state to pay for that so they can compete?

The polish worker returns home after some time and there the money's much more worth (in what you get for the same sum) than in Germany. Costs of living are much lower there and thus it's good money for hard work. Here it's less than you get on the dole and not enough to feed your family anyways.

With Hartz IV many people get even less than social security (which is supposed to define the minimum living standard and is everything but comfortable wealth). Of course people are fed up. I even know a few people who will suffer from that - they lost their jobs years ago and can't find anything new: too old (40+), not qualified, and therefore no jobs anywhere for them.

Stop reading Bild and watching too much 'Explosiv' or how all that other bull... on tv is called. Look out there - it's not so simple as some media (and politicians when they want votes somewhere else) want to make it look.

Anyways: the basic problem is definitely not wether Hartz IV forces some more people to work for low wages or not. Nor is it wether people want to work (they do) or not. It's (and that's the same in the West) that we need new jobs for those people who have been laid off whereever big production sites closed be it because of the reunification or globalization.

What do you think happens when GM finally closes down Opel in Germany (Rüsselsheim, Bochum, etc.) in a few years (a very likely scenario atm)? Some tens of thousand more longterm unemployed who won't find a job because no alternative places to work are available to them. But they are just lazy, eh? How many cheap labour jobs do you think there really are? Not many because those are the first that can bet rationalized away and done even better and cheaper by machines anyways.

[raedor 8]

That an interesting point:

You say, that there are no jobs.

How is it possible, that many workers come from Poland to work in East Germany, when there're no jobs? Just because East German(but even more West-Germans!!!!) don't want to work for 5 Euro per Hour, or even less. That's the point. In the TV you see many people protesting against Harz 4, why? Because they would have to search for a job in January 2005.

no, because the employer does not have as much money as a west german employer has. so, where can he save money? right: a polish worker does not have any "lohnnebenkosten"...

they would not get a job in january 2005 anyway. your last sentence shows your ignorance again. you never even saw an unemployed it seems. it's not like "hey, i wait here till the arbeitsamt comes and brings me a job!" most of the unemployed really try to get a job. but it looks like that destroys your full world view. an unemployed is for you a tiny, lazy parasite who trys to get the money you're earning under sweat... sorry, but that's not reality. as i already stated: that's a minority.

[Balschoiw 0]

I never meant to insult the citizens of former east germany but I have made my experiences with them. If you read my post you will see that I do have former east german friends but I will cetainly not call the ones friends running around screaming "Sieg Heil" and " Ausländer raus" That´s exactly the people we don´t need in germany. Never again.

The youth in east germany tends to glorify 3rd Reich, it glorifies it because they don´t know what they are talking about...and sure it´s much easier to drink with friends at home listen to Störkraft and beat up some foreigners or burn some houses. That´s what I see. But I hardly see any constructive youth movement or people who try to change their life on their own. As I said before, noone will get you a job unless you try it yourself. Even if it is not in your area or country. Take this for example. In Bavaria they´re searching for personel in variouse branches. Automobile industry, hotels, hospitals....they´re searching for personel. It´s not that we don´t have jobs to offer. But a lot of people refuse to move for work. That´s why we have a lot of people from abroad who move to germany for work.

The work doesn´t come to your home...you have to go for your work. It´s not only for former east germans like that. I also had to move around a lot for my job and I´m still doing. That´s what is needed . Flexibility and initiative.

[raedor 8]

I never meant to insult the citizens of former east germany but I have made my experiences with them. If you read my post you will see that I do have former east german friends but I will cetainly not call the ones friends running around screaming "Sieg Heil" and " Ausländer raus" That´s exactly the people we don´t need in germany. Never again.

The youth in east germany tends to glorify 3rd Reich, it glorifies it because they don´t know what they are talking about...and sure it´s much easier to drink with friends at home listen to Störkraft and beat up some foreigners or burn some houses. That´s what I see. But I hardly see any constructive youth movement or people who try to change their life on their own. As I said before, noone will get you a job unless you try it yourself. Even if it is not in your area or country. Take this for example. In Bavaria they´re searching for personel in variouse branches. Automobile industry, hotels, hospitals....they´re searching for personel. It´s not that we don´t have jobs to offer. But a lot of people refuse to move for work. That´s why we have a lot of people from abroad who move to germany for work.

The work doesn´t come to your home...you have to go for your work. It´s not only for former east germans like that. I also had to move around a lot for my job and I´m still doing. That´s what is needed . Flexibility and initiative.

yes. i had my problems with such kids in east germany, too. especially because i opposed them publicly. not all show their right wing attitude, but many ppl have the same opinion. they are doing and believing such stuff not (only) because they don't know history. it's because of their hopeless situation...

and the younger ppl are already moving to west germany.

i'm now 18 years old and moved two times (both times more than 600 kilometer)... but i'm west german

btw: the bavarian companies are looking for qualified ppl, most of the unemployed in former GDR are not very qualified. the few qualified ppl already moved to west germany or somewhere else...

[joltan 0]

Spiegel Online: description of the new nationalist members of the saxonian parliament (in German only)

Jez, just reading through that list makes me wanna puke!