The Iraq thread 4

[ralphwiggum 6]

how can this happen? i thought Iraq was a quiet peaceful place?!?!

[billybob2002 0]

how can this happen? i thought Iraq was a quiet peaceful place?!?!

How could a person like Giuliana Sgrena, with her views, be taken hostage by terrorists.

[SGTKOPP 0]

Oh well in that case. Fire away *rolls eyes*

"High rate of speed"? I doubt anyone would approach a US checkpoint at a "high rate of speed" anymore. Most likely it SEEMED like a high rate of speed, especially given they were in no danger....until they got near the checkpoint that is...

Unmarked car heading to you at a "high rate of speed", what will do? Also, http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/iraq.main/

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

Now I know not all soldiers are marksmen or snipers.

Edit: RIP, Nicola Calipari

being a vet who just left Iraq this week and someone who has been on checkpoints in bahgdad   i will tell you that lots of people speed coming up to checkpoints  exspecialily drunks   and then there are the cars full of explosives  i havce been in convoys hit by vbieds  ieds and suicide bombers  so i lay no blam eon the soldiers manning the checkpoint i blame the  italian agents and government for not planning and corrinating the movement of a pow

edit go ahead and commit on things you know nothing about you can be a cnn ranger all day

[red oct 2]

Oh well in that case. Fire away *rolls eyes*

"High rate of speed"? I doubt anyone would approach a US checkpoint at a "high rate of speed" anymore. Most likely it SEEMED like a high rate of speed, especially given they were in no danger....until they got near the checkpoint that is...

they would be if the street they were traveling on was dangerous. in which case this one was from what i heard on NPR. the soldiers were waving at the car to slow down and they didn't. considering how many car bombings there are in Iraq i believe the the soldiers are not at fault and acted acordingly. after all how the hell are those soldiers supposed to know whos in that car? the Italians didn't even bother to tell us they were comming through, and if you have a practical solution that we could have done to prevent this i would really like to hear it. as far as im concerned this is all on them, had the secret service agents used common sense this wouldn't have happened. in fact why didn't they just have the U.S. military take the journelist the airport? it would have been a smarter idea i think.

[billybob2002 0]

Oh well in that case. Fire away *rolls eyes*

"High rate of speed"? I doubt anyone would approach a US checkpoint at a "high rate of speed" anymore. Most likely it SEEMED like a high rate of speed, especially given they were in no danger....until they got near the checkpoint that is...

Unmarked car heading to you at a "high rate of speed", what will do? Also, http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/iraq.main/

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

Now I know not all soldiers are marksmen or snipers.

Edit: RIP, Nicola Calipari

being a vet who just left Iraq this week and someone who has been on checkpoints in bahgdad   i will tell you that lots of people speed coming up to checkpoints  exspecialily drunks   and then there are the cars full of explosives  i havce been in convoys hit by vbieds  ieds and suicide bombers  so i lay no blam eon the soldiers manning the checkpoint i blame the  italian agents and government for not planning and corrinating the movement of a pow

edit   go ahead and commit on things you know nothing about  you can be a cnn ranger all day

The grammar... Anyway, thanks for your service if it's true.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....5

Quote[/b] ]Also Friday, two members of the Shiite-led United Iraqi Alliance dropped out of the political group because of its inability to carve out a deal for a new prime minister after historic Jan. 30 elections.

The alliance took 140 of the 275 seats in the National Assembly, the body charged with writing a new constitution. But it needs support from other parties to muster the required two-thirds majority to insure control of top posts in the new government.

The members who dropped out included one of its more well-known supporters, Abdul-Karim Mahmoud al-Mohammedawi. Dubbed "Prince of the Marshes," al-Mohammedawi led the resistance movement against Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in the southern marsh region. The other was Ali Hashim al-Youshaa, one of the alliance's leaders.

I hope there would be compromises like this nation (US) had to do when the "states" were formulating the constiution.

[SGTKOPP 0]

what proof do you need

[Akira 0]

Well, if they were indeed speeding towards a checkpoint, then there is little excuse for it. Though why anyone would still speed toward a checkpoint is beyond me.

What time does the sun set in Bagdad? Would "arm and hand" signals really be visible at 855pm?

[billybob2002 0]

Well, if they were indeed speeding towards a checkpoint, then there is little excuse for it. Though why anyone would still speed toward a checkpoint is beyond me.

What time does the sun set in Bagdad? Would "arm and hand" signals really be visible at 855pm?

Did they not have headlights on?

Quote[/b] ]what proof do you need

Something sufficient... Somebody said they were in the military in this thread and told a lie months ago. Also, there was another "incident" that happened....

Edit:

Quote[/b] ]A U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the military said in a statement. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

[billybob2002 0]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/....3746348

^

Shows the car for a brief sec and no bullets through the windshield. Furthermore, it looks like it hit something head on. Also, the car is plain white with no markings.

[denoir 0]

It was probably lack of communication that caused this. The Italians were coming from a rescue mission - naturally they were going fast. And the US troops at the checkpoint were apparently not informed of the operation.

Anyway, a class A fuckup. The Italians are of course going nuts over this. Given that the Italian population has always been overwhealmingly against Italian participation in the Iraq war and that the current Italian presence is supported by a very slim majority of Italy's politicians, this may very well be the end of Italy's presence in Iraq.

Bush can count his blessings though, that the rescued hostage wasn't killed. Had that been the case, you'd see Italy packing its bags today and cutting diplomatic relationships with the US.

Apparently however Bush is aware of the delicacy of the situation as he has pledged a full investigation and promised unconditional support for any investigation that the Italians will conduct.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Look at the front of the car:

The damage at the front seems to be the result of a crash at "higher speed".

MfG Lee

[EiZei 0]

Look at the front of the car:

http://lee.plankton.ch/car.jpg

The damage at the front seems to be the result of a crash at "higher speed".

MfG Lee

Id say 50km/h max., should be non-fatal if the passengers are wearing seatbelts.

[red oct 2]

Look at the front of the car:

http://lee.plankton.ch/car.jpg

The damage at the front seems to be the result of a crash at "higher speed".

MfG Lee

that can't be the same car. where's the bullet holes? i would expect the windshield and the hood and grill would be wriddled w/ them.

[Ade662081 0]

Quote[/b] ]that can't be the same car. where's the bullet holes? i would expect the windshield and the hood and grill would be wriddled w/ them.

The soldiers probably didn't empty their clips into the car. Assault rifles are more powerful than a lot of people realise and a modern 5.56mm round can penetrate the engone block of a car and come out fast enough to kill someone on the other side.

It is unlikely that the soldiers would have sprayed the car because by firing at the engine, that says to me that they were trying not to kill the occupants. If you fire a burst, the rifle will tend to climb because of recoil and you would risk shooting through the windscreen.

The denting to the front of the car may be because it hit a lamp post or barricade after losing control.

It looks to me like a tragic communication breakdown and it also looks like the soldiers did what they could to stop the vehicle and minimise the chance of the occupants being killed, but at the same time, as far as they knew, had no choice but to fire.

Ade

[denoir 0]

Assault rifles are more powerful than a lot of people realise and a modern 5.56mm round can penetrate the engone block of a car and come out fast enough to kill someone on the other side.

Nah, not a chance. A regular NATO 5,56 can be deflected by a tree branch. It's unlikely it would even penetrate an engine block. You need at least a high powered .50 to shoot through one. A .50 browning mg would for instance do the job, although then it would have been unlikely that anybody inside would have survived. Remember that the Italian officer covered the reporter with his body, meaning that multiple shots were fired and that it gave him time long enough to react.

It looks like the car on the picture has a window missing, so my guess would be that the bullets that killed the guy came through there. The reporter was shot through the shoulder, which would also be consistent with a bullet coming through the side window.

I'm just speculating, but from the car picture I would guess that when the soldiers at the checkpoint opened fire, the driver turned the car to the side. The fatal bullets would have entered through the side of the car, and the car then probably ran into some obstacle, accounting for the frontal damage.

[quicksand 0]

US attack against Italians in Baghdad was deliberate: companion

Quote[/b] ]ROME - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged.

"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.

When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed the former Sunni rebel stronghold.

Sgrena told RaiNews24 television Saturday a "hail of bullets" rained down on the car taking her to safety at Baghdad airport, along with three secret service agents, killing one of them.

"I was speaking to (agent) Nicola Calipari (...) when he leant on me, probably to protect me, and then collapsed and I realized he was dead," said Sgrena, who was being questioned on Saturday by two Italian magistrates.

"They continued shooting and the driver couldn't even explain that we were Italians. It was really horrible," she added.

Sgrena, who was hospitalized with serious wounds to her left shoulder and lung after arriving back in Rome Saturday before noon, said she was "exhausted because of what happened above all in the last 24 hours".

"After all the risks I have been running I can say that I'm fine," she said.

"I thought that after I was handed over to the Italians danger was over, but then this shooting broke out and we were hit by a hail of bullets."

The chief editor of Sgrena's left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto Gabriele Polo meanwhile branded Calipari's death a "murder".

"He was hit in the head," he said.

Calipari will be given a state funeral Monday.

03/05/2005 13:43 GMT

The evolution of this story could have significant conotations.

It appears that the victims in the car will keep an united front accusing US soldier of a deliberated attack,I would guess this is exactly what the already popular anti-war movement in Italy needs for a momentum.

For those familiar with Iraq in this conflict,we all know that this is nothing new.Many lifes were lost at the cost of imprudance and indiscriminate fire on US account.The story is always the same either civillians are shot dead at poorly marked checkpoints at night or shot by US soldiers firing indiscriminatly after being hit by roadside bombs.I still can not understand what is the point of spraying gunfire randomly in every direction,when it is obvious that the insurgents are at a safe distance of hundreads of metres away when they detonate the IEDs

No One Safe on Baghdad's Roads, Iraqis Say

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Jawdat Abd al-KadhUm was not surprised that U.S. troops opened fire at a car carrying a freed Italian hostage to safety. He lost a leg to an American bullet fired from a convoy traveling ahead of him.

 

The 23-year-old says fear, confusion and misunderstandings on all sides have made roads in Iraq (news - web sites)'s capital perilous. Now he says he makes sure that any car he is in stops when a U.S. military convoy transporting soldiers or equipment nears.

"There is no safety on the roads. Everyone should expect anything to happen on these roads. Foreigners, Iraqis we are all exposed to the same risks," said al-Kadhum, his left tracksuit trousdr leg tied around the stump of his leg.

"Now if I 3ee an American convoy, I stop until it has gone."

Many have a tale to tell of someone they know that has been shot at, killed or harassed by U.S. forces in convoys or at checkpoints dotted across the country.

Security contractors, whose numbers have risen as relentless and often indiscriminate violence grips Iraq, are accused of being trigger-happy.

But the killing of secret service agent Nicola Calipari, who was instrumental in gaining Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena's release from kidnappers, has underlined what was already known to many -- U.S. checkpoints or convoys should be avoided.

STAY CLEAR

The U.S. military says it cannot discuss the rules of engagement -- procedure for dealing with threats from suicide bombers or car bombs -- due to "operational security issues."

But ex-army officers say cars should be at least 50 meters away from any convoy, never overtake and that if a car speeds toward a checkpoint soldiers will shoot at the engine block to make sure the vehicle comes to a standstill.

They say unnecessary shootings happen when hand signals -- a fist to stay back -- or linguistic misunderstandings take place. Cultural differences can also prompt panic -- driving slowly for an Iraqi is not necessarily the same as for an American.

Al-Kadhum thought he knew the rules.

He was taking his uncle, who suffers from kidney disease, to hospital just miles away from their home in al-Ghazaliyah in west Baghdad. He says they were a safe distance from the convoy.

"I cannot remember the exact distance, but we were first behind the convoy about 500 meters behind," he says. "But then there was an explosion on the convoy and they started shooting. Shooting everywhere."

His car was shot. A bullet went through his knee. He tried to press the hole to stop the bleeding but then lost consciousness.

In hospital, his leg was amputated just above th% knee.

"I believe the Americans were confused when they attacked us. But this confusion causes tragedies," he says, complaining that he cannot find work and has been told he cannot claim compensation before the formation of Iraq's new government.

"But yes I blame them. We were not guilty. What have I done to deserve losing my leg?"

[Ade662081 0]

@denoir

Quote[/b] ]Nah, not a chance

Depends on the range, angle of penetration, round type and what the engine is made from - aluminium is brittle enough that a 5.56 could go through. Having said that, your scenario is a very plausible one.

I guess what really matters is that another incident that has sown mistrust among allies and fear among ordinary Iraqis has occurred. Worse, this one could probably have been avoided if said allies had communicated better. And the further away from any sort of improvement in the situation we go each time it happens.

Ade

[red oct 2]

Quote[/b] ]"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

um 700 meters? i think thats somewhere around 2600 to 2700 in feet. which is about a 1/2 mile. and your telling me those soldiers managed to fire and hit the car w/ a carbine rifle that has a maximum effective range is 360 m according to worldguns.ru

Quote[/b] ]I'm just speculating, but from the car picture I would guess that when the soldiers at the checkpoint opened fire, the driver turned the car to the side. The fatal bullets would have entered through the side of the car, and the car then probably ran into some obstacle, accounting for the frontal damage.

i would figure there would still be some parts of the door that would have bullet holes. the broken window could have been shattered from whatever accident. i don't think that car was the one being used by the Italians.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]um 700 meters? i think thats somewhere around 2600 to 2700 in feet. which is about a 1/2 mile. and your telling me those soldiers managed to fire and hit the car w/ a carbine rifle that has a maximum effective range is 360 m according to worldguns.ru

You are missing the point and have missunderstood what they are saying.The checkpoints are well before the airport itself,what the articles asesses is that there were more then one checkpoint(which makes sense) which they passed succesfully until they reached the place where the shooting occoured which was 700 m near the airport.

To make myself clearer no one is claming the Italians have been shot by soldiers from inside the airport from a distance of 700 metres.

[Daddl 10]

Quote[/b] ]"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

um 700 meters? i think thats somewhere around 2600 to 2700 in feet. which is about a 1/2 mile. and your telling me those soldiers managed to fire and hit the car w/ a carbine

uh-huh that's a big load of bullshit.

700m from the airport - not from where the shooting soldiers where. I think that's quite clear from the text.

[red oct 2]

Quote[/b] ]um 700 meters? i think thats somewhere around 2600 to 2700 in feet. which is about a 1/2 mile. and your telling me those soldiers managed to fire and hit the car w/ a carbine rifle that has a maximum effective range is 360 m according to worldguns.ru

You are missing the point and have missunderstood what they are saying.The checkpoints are well before the airport itself,what the articles asesses is that there were more then one checkpoint(which makes sense) which they passed succesfully until they reached the place where the shooting occoured which was 700 m near the airport.

To make myself clearer no one is claming the Italians have been shot by soldiers from inside the airport from a distance of 700 metres.

yeah? so what if there were multiple checkpoints? it doesn't mean that they knew they were comming or that they were even Italian. most likely they dressed up like the locals to keep a low profile (which is what most journalists do over in Iraq) so the soldiers probaly figured they were in fact locals. and if each checkpoint keeps in contact w/ the next or previous ones (which they might not keep in contact) they probaly notified the next checkpoint that a Arab family was comming down the road. and i think your forgetting the soldiers at the last checkpoint were waving at them to stop. they had warning signs and everything. so why didn't they slow down? they weren't being chased by anyone. and why the secrecy about this? why couldn't Italy just asked us to take their jounalist to the airport?

[Balschoiw 0]

Over 400 shots were fired at the car, wich is obviously not the one on the picture last page.

Any comments on this ?

I doubt that Italian authorities did not inform the US troops about the transport.

The way Berlusconi reacted yesterday indicated that something went definately wrong. Too bad we will never know as two pro-war parties are involved that are both known for their support for each other, so don´t expect to get any detailed report.

You know it´s funny that we still wait for the investigation results on multiple incidents, like cruise missiles on public places and such. It happened almost 2 years ago, but still no word about that "indepth investigations".

If you have a pretious cargo like that aboard you DO inform your coaltion partners about it to provide a safe passage to the airport.

Lack of communication ?

[NavyEEL 0]

Over 400 shots were fired at the car, wich is obviously not the one on the picture last page.

Any comments on this ?

I doubt that Italian authorities did not inform the US troops about the transport.

The way Berlusconi reacted yesterday indicated that something went definately wrong. Too bad we will never know as two pro-war parties are involved that are both known for their support for each other, so don´t expect to get any detailed report.

You know it´s funny that we still wait for the investigation results on multiple incidents, like cruise missiles on public places and such. It happened almost 2 years ago, but still no word about that "indepth investigations".

If you have a pretious cargo like that aboard you DO inform your coaltion partners about it to provide a safe passage to the airport.

Lack of communication ?

I agree. If they went through all the trouble to coordinate her release, you would think they would have told US forces at some point? I'm sure someone was told, and the message probably got lost along the way. Not an uncommon occurrance, since the Italians probably didn't speak directly to that little checkpoint.

Aside from a communication error, speeding toward a checkpoint doesn't seem like a smart idea. Even here in the states I don't drive fast when going on post through the gate. I mean I'm not afraid that they will shoot me, but you know you're going to have to stop and show identification anyway, so why drive fast?

Regardless, I'm glad that she was able to be rescued and make it to safety. The fact that a captive was freed will be a morale booster for those in the area, in spite of the loss associated with it.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]yeah? so what if there were multiple checkpoints? it doesn't mean that they knew they were comming or that they were even Italian.

First of all I don't understand what you are argueing about,I was simply pointing out your failure of comprehension by understanding that the passagers were hit from 700 metres.

Second of all you are still persisting in missing the point.

Quote[/b] ]"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

The driver past all the required checkpoints and they were not shot at one.

Freed Italian Hostage Recalls U.S. Shooting

Quote[/b] ]....

"The firing was not justified by the speed of our car," she reportedly said, adding it was traveling at a "regular" speed.

"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol which shot as soon as it had lit us up with a spotlight. We had no idea where the shots were coming from

Not from 700 hundread metres far,not at a checkpoint but they are claming it was a patrol that shot at them.

[red oct 2]

okay forget i said anything. i was figuring they came under fire from a checkpoint that was guarding the gate to the airport. i wasn't aware of that another patrol was supposedly involved.