The Iraq thread 4

[Scrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]python3 Posted on Feb. 05 2005,08:34

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No prideful benefit here, because i never mentioned being right and never engaged in a discussion here about the elections.

Sorry if you thought that was an indirect reference.  I really did mean just the politicians.

As for the fatwa..  Well, if people will be lead -so directly- by one man, and there are others at his level who argue his point, showing he is human and of limited perspective.. Well.. Then there's not much to say.  Good luck to the masses.  Hope the leader you follow in so devoted a fashion picks your life's direction well.  

Not to be demeaning, but there are Lemmings (metaphorizing people to the small furry animals that follow each other to their deaths over tall cliffs into water.  For the geo-biographically disinclined ;-) ) in every country, hiding under the banner of patriotism, and others.  They do lend considerable power to a movement, but often severely limit it's wisdom.    And I'm not saying this fatwa was unwise,  too soon to judge.  It maybe the one thing that will make this country great in the upcoming years.  It may cause a civil war.  It may make Iraq the best democracy ever, who knows what the people of Iraq will do with themselves when they are on their own?  I'm just saying good luck to a brave new country.  God Bless.

[denoir 0]

I (yes, just my opionion) don't care why or who voted for what.  IMHO the important point is that THEY ALL had the chance and the majority opted to vote instead of shoot each other.  They chose to talk and reason, instead of kill as usual.  

Actually, the people who usually go on by their lives voted, while those that kill, killed as usual. 41 people were killed at the polling stations.

While in theory, elections should be a great thing, they don't mean much if the context is unstable. It's btw actually not the first time Iraq has had real elections. 1953 was the last time IIRC. Obviously those elections did not lead to anything lasting democratic.

And in this case, the elections can be the source of some nasty problems. The Sunni/Shia differences had been put on hold for quite a while (possibly because they were more instersted at the time in blowing up Americans rather than each other). Now those differences are coming into focus.

I really do hope that they see that it's in their interest not to blow the country apart, but I don't expect it. Right now, the Sunni, who are economically powerful and who were the ruling class, have been marginalized politically. Incidentally, they're the ones mostly putting up a resistance to the US occupation. So they have shown that they're willing to fight - and switching from one target to another won't be a big step.

[Scrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]And in this case, the elections can be the source of some nasty problems. The Sunni/Shia differences had been put on hold for quite a while (possibly because they were more instersted at the time in blowing up Americans rather than each other). Now those differences are coming into focus.

I've gotta study this region more, because it just seems like a bunch of superiorist racist/sectarian thugs not willing to become a nation or share power.. When I was at the University, I heard many of the Iranian students scoff at being called Arab, they stated 'We are Persian', light skinned.  Is it really that simple?  I was so hoping for the sake of humanity that it was more complex, less basal.  You know?  It's like it could happen on this scale anywhere..  (normally I'm not this naive, need coffee)  

[SM_Azazel 0]

lol

you pick out of everything i said was that?

it was an joke.

i am not arrogent and i know rednekcs beat their wives too.

like miles always says there is little difference between an arab and an redneck both are racist arrogent and stupid.

(note this is an joke)

(note this is stupid redrick of raditcal extermists)

as for poor and darkages you don't listen to the "good" muslim redrick do you? they hate worship of money wich they do anyways.

but they want their countries and muslim world brought back into the darkages of clierc rule poor and mindless whorship of their god. and death to all who oppose them.

but really they are stupid arrogent hypocritssince they love their modern rifles and bombs. their money to get from oil.. if the west pulled out of the middle east and no longered let the arabs control them through oil. the middle east would collaps. then once the terorrists money dried up they would be begging the west to come back. look at afghanistan if it was not for bin laden and his friends afghanistan and the taliban would ahve collaps due to no money to run anything. yes they were given money from western companies but not enuff to keep an goverment and military running

[quicksand 0]

Supporters of radical cleric Moqtada Sadr 'win province'

Quote[/b] ]Followers of radical Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr are poised to win control of a province in Iraq, according to predicted election results.

Candidates supporting the cleric - whose militia fought against British troops - appear set to win Maysan province in Shia-dominated south-east Iraq. They are also expected to do well in nearby provinces, including Basra. A senior British officer in Basra said: "We have to live with it."

Last year coalition forces fought Moqtada's Mahdi Army when it staged a revolt and tried to take over the Imam Ali shrine in the holy city of Najaf. In August British troops seized the head offices of his movement in Basra.

He did not stand in the election, but he ran a list of individual supporters.

First results of provincial council elections are expected today. The national assembly result is expected to be declared next Thursday, the Muslim New Year.

Sadr belittles Iraq vote, demands date for US pullout

Quote[/b] ]Rebel cleric Sadr belittles Iraq vote, demands date for US pullout

KUFA, Iraq (AFP) - Iraqi Shiite rebel cleric Moqtada Sadr called on his community's senior religious leaders to insist on a timeline for a US troop withdrawal and belittled last week's historic vote.

"This is a message from Sayed Moqtada. I call on all religious and political powers that pushed towards the elections and took part in them to issue an official statement calling for a timetable for the withdrawal of the occupation forces from Iraq," Sayed Hashim Abu Ragheef told faithful gathered for Friday prayers in the Shiite city of Kufa.

The firebrand cleric gave notice that he would no longer hold his tongue about political developments in Iraq after keeping quiet for months, according to a statement Ragheef read from Sadr to thousands of worshippers.

"I stood aside for the elections and did not stand against them as I did not want to show disobedience toward the Marjaiyah (senior clerics). I did not join these elections so that I wouldn't be one of the West's pawns.

"The West is so proud that they have held the elections but I would ask: who is responsible for the blood that day?" he asked.

Sadr was referring to the death of at least 36 civilians in attacks on Sunday as Iraqis went to the polls in the first free elections since the downfall of Saddam Hussein after the US-led invasion of March 2003.

Millions of Shiites, who make up about 60 percent of the population, voted in an affirmation of the political process championed by the towering Shiite religious figure, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

Sadr's Mehdi Army militia battled US troops for seven months last year before laying their arms down in October.

The man is deffinetly playing his cards in an intelligent manner.

Staying silent during the ellections enabled him to keep his firebrand fierce opponent of US presence cleric status without fully boycotting it.

Having an independent list of supporters participating enabled him to ensure influence even if the ellections would have gone full scale and were to be fully succesful.

Sadr also won a personal confrunation with Allawi-while he is on a one way trip to be being booted from the post of PM with poor ellections results even when being "the only other guy" known by the Iraqis who came to vote,Sadr influence is growing constantly and is turning into a serious opponent to Sistani and he is only in his early 30s.

I would also be suspicious in belliving his millitia disarmed,the weapons gathered during the ceasfire were acknowledged to be in very small amounts and many were reported to carry stacks of weapons to their homes.So while there is no question he would have the power to uprise again the question if he would choose to do so.

[miles teg 1]

lol

you pick out of everything i said was that?

it was an joke.

i am not arrogent and i know rednekcs beat their wives too.

like miles always says there is little difference between an arab and an redneck both are racist arrogent and stupid.

as for poor and darkages you don't listen to the "good" muslim redrick do you? they hate worship of money wich they do anyways.

but they want their countries and muslim world brought back into the darkages of clierc rule poor and mindless whorship of their god. and death to all who oppose them.

but really they are stupid arrogent hypocritssince they love their modern rifles and bombs. their money to get from oil.. if the west pulled out of the middle east and no longered let the arabs control them through oil. the middle east would collaps. then once the terorrists money dried up they would be begging the west to come back. look at afghanistan if it was not for bin laden and his friends afghanistan and the taliban would ahve collaps due to no money to run anything. yes they were given money from western companies but not enuff to keep an goverment and military running

Woooooooooe... hold the boat... I NEVER said rednecks and Arabs are the same. Some Rednecks and Wahhabi/Salafi's are very similar in alot of their attitudes towards women however. Alot of them are also quite racist. But there still some nice Wahhabi/Salafis also that I've met just as I've met some real nice Rednecks who were basically good honest people.

So please, even when I may joke about such things, I DO NOT believe what you stated I believe.

Also Afghanistan has one very important cash source: Opium.

But that's for another thread and not this one.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SM_Azazel 0]

lol nah all americans and arabs are the same racist women beaters.

lol

maybe humor does not fit will on forums..

lol

there edited my post to help those who lack the humor gene

[Acecombat 0]

Your sense of humour is quite senseless actually.

Quote[/b] ]they hate worship of money wich they do anyways.

So you like to worship money ? Whats wrong with 'hating' worshipping of money? Who wants to sit and bow to a piece of paper  

Quote[/b] ] if the west pulled out of the middle east and no longered let the arabs control them through oil. the middle east would collaps

Hurray we have another west vs east guy here , i cant seem to remember anymore what year is this , is it 2005 AD or 2005 BC ?

Just to humour you along btw , what do you think will happen if the west doesnt imports oil from here? Are the cars and planes gonna run on ? Pissoleum ?

This old beaten up scenario of 'if we do this' 'if we do that' , works both ways , none can survive without the other its a symbiotic relationship between america and the ME they both have to lose and win depending on the choices they make.

@Python:

Quote[/b] ]If anything it proves the power of the clerics in the ME and the power & rise of the religious parties. If all ME countries were to hold elections, it would be the religious parties that would win cuz the people have tried secular rulers etc.

Yes i quite agree with you on the rise in power of the clerics but then again when was it ever diminished apart from the first few centurys of muslim empire. How do you btw come to the conclusion that all ME countries have tried secular leaders and failed? First of all when did al ME countries had secular leaders    plus why isnt a normally elected muslim leader looked upon as a muslim leader ? Why is it always the guy with the beard and one who drawls out long moralizing speeches to other 'defined' as a 'muslim'.

Can you plz explain?

Quote[/b] ]I am not for democracies in the ME.

Why not? Do you consider it unislamic or is it someother reason?

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi Police Use Kidnappers' Videos to Fight Crime

By CHRISTINE HAUSER

Published: February 5, 2005

MOSUL, Iraq, Feb. 4 - In one scene, the videotape shows three kidnappers with guns and a knife, preparing to behead a helpless man who is gagged and kneeling at their feet.

In the next, it is one of the kidnappers who is in detention, his eyes wide with fear, his lips trembling, as he speaks to his interrogators.

"How do I say this?" says the kidnapper, identified as an Egyptian named Abdel-Qadir Mahmoud, holding back tears. "I am sorry for everything I have done."

In the first week after the elections, the Iraqi Interior Ministry and the Mosul police chief are turning the tables on the insurgency here in the north by using a tactic - videotaped messages - that the insurgents have used time and again as they have terrorized the region with kidnappings and executions.

But this time the videos, which are being broadcast on a local station, carry an altogether different message, juxtaposing images of the masked killers with the cowed men they become once captured.

The broadcast of such videos raises questions about whether they violate legal or treaty obligations about the way opposing fighters are interrogated and how their confessions are made public.

Since thousands of Iraqi police officers fled their stations here in November under insurgent attacks, the American military has been working with the Iraqis to reconstitute the police force in Mosul. But it was not clear if American advisers had any influence on the decision to use the videos. American military officials did not have any immediate comment on the practice.

But officials in Mosul, short on manpower, apparently hope the psychological force of the broadcasts will help undermine the insurgency, making its fighters appear weak and encouraging citizens to call up with their reactions or information about those still at large. A program loosely based on "most wanted" crime shows in the United States is also being developed, a Mosul television official said.

"Because of their confessions and the disgusting things they did, we have reached our limit," said the Mosul police chief, Ahmed al-Jaburi. "There is no more patience."

If nothing more, the confessions, as they are called in the videos, offer a rare glimpse into how the gangs operate and plot their killings. The videos also try to divest the terrorists and criminals of their religious platform by challenging them with questions about Islam.

"These are men who do not fear God," an Interior Ministry official said at the beginning of one of the segments this week. He described the men as Iraqi and other Arab terrorists. "Our special forces will crush their filthy heads!"

"We are going to show you some men who have the blood of innocent people on their hands," the official said. "We are going to show you their confessions, say their names and those of their leaders, and we expect you to help us find them."

Some people said they found the practice of showing the insurgents on television troubling.

Sarah Leah Whitson of Human Rights Watch said such tactics raised the issue of whether the people were tortured or otherwise coerced into making the statements.

Last week the organization issued a report based on interviews in Iraq that "found the abuse, torture and mistreatment of detainees by Iraqi security forces to be routine and commonplace," said Ms. Whitson, the executive director of the group's Middle Eastern division. For example, she said, the police often described detainees as guilty before any trial had occurred and made them available to journalists to be photographed.

It is not immediately clear what the officials intend to do with the detainees. Security officials said the men had been detained around Mosul during patrols based on leads.

Mr. Mahmoud's segment is especially dramatic. At one point it shows three masked kidnappers dressed in black, standing over their victim. The two on the sides point weapons at the victim's head as the man in the middle reads a statement.

When he is finished, he hands the paper to someone off camera and, without hesitation, draws a knife and grasps the victim's chin, pulling it to the side to expose his neck. The other two lean forward to help.

Then the video pauses. The voice of an Iraqi security official comes on. "That is Abdel-Qadir Mahmoud on the left," said the official, referring to one of the masked men. "And that is Mohammad Hikmat on the right."

The man identified as Mr. Mahmoud had been shown earlier in the video in a very different way than when he was displayed masked, armed and acting with bravado as he helped to kill a man on his knees.

"The coalition forces arrested me last April as one of Saddam's special forces," he said, sporting a scraggly beard, his eyes wide and a crease furrowing his brow. He was shown from the neck up, a plastic sheet forming a backdrop behind him.

"I met a man named Sheik Mahdi in jail," Mr. Mahmoud said. "When I was released, we met again. He was organizing four groups. They hung out at a pool hall."

He coughed a few times, then leaned his head on his right hand and put a finger to his temple as if trying to appear sincere or thoughtful.

"The operations were in the Mahmudiya area," he said, referring to a town south of Baghdad where guerrilla attacks are frequent. "They killed someone named Metwalli al-Masri, along with four engineers."

In another scene, a man who gave his name as Muataz Jawba sat in front of a tiled wall. The camera was fixed on him from the shoulders up. He was heavyset and had a thick moustache.

The commentator said he was part of a gang led by the "prince" of terrorists, Khaled Zakia, who was a colleague of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an associate of Al Qaeda.

Mr. Jawba's heavy-lidded eyes darted nervously from side to side. Whispering into a little microphone held to his lips, he said he had pointed out to the gang a Christian man who worked for the Americans.

"They chose a day to kill him," Mr. Jawba said.

The gang went to the man's restaurant and shot him. But they found out he survived after they sent a scout to the hospital pretending he wanted to donate blood. They then demanded a $10,000 ransom from the family, which the family paid, Mr. Jawba said.

"As a group, did you fast and pray?" the questioner said, referring to two requirements of practicing Muslims.

"Khaled came and fooled us," said Mr. Jawba. "He said it's jihad, it's occupation, come help us."

"Do you call this jihad?" the interrogator said.

"No," Mr. Jawba replied meekly.

"Is Khaled Zakia a religious man?" the questioner asked.

"He brainwashed us," Mr. Jawba said.

Another man was identified as one who pumped bullets into the head of a prone man with his hands bound behind his back. The commentator said insurgents thought the victim worked for Americans because a mineral-water bottle was found in his car.

In another segment, after mentioning that Iraqi security forces had engaged in a gun battle, an Iraqi official says, as if making a grim public service announcement: "This is how we will treat the people beheading you." The video then showed what appeared to be a body covered by a sheet.

Iraqis are invited to call with their reactions and information during the programs, of which there have been at least three this week. On one broadcast, emotional citizens called the number imposed over the image of Mr. Jawba on the screen.

"My nephew was killed a while back," said a caller from Dohuk, a Kurdish city north of Mosul. "His name was Hassan Ibrahim. Are they the guys who did it? Please ask them if they killed someone in Sanaa Street in Mosul."

A woman called up, sobbing. "Someone murdered my son, Abdel-Salam Hamoodi," she said. "He was murdered near our house. Just ask them if they killed him. I want you to give me the answer, to ease my heart."

From

[SM_Azazel 0]

east vs west?

wtf?

where is my east vs west thing?

and you convert over to corn oil like the diesel engine was first designed to run on before oil companies said no it has to run on oil products.

and btw i hate the east and west they are the same thing just different ideals. just like democrates and republicans same same thing just an different face.

and the whorship of money was jsut one thing. do we really need to go over all the things muslisms well extremists hate aboot the west and their modern ways? money was just an simple single thing..

don't try to pick apart what i say to twist it into something else with out actually making an valid point.

[Scrub 0]

Wilco,

What is that quote from?  Please tell us it's a reliable source.

The good point is they may have the fighting spirit to claim their land. The bad is they may be having to do dark acts to get it done.

Edit: Saw the 'from' thanks

[Acecombat 0]

The way you constantly write 'west should do this' and 'arabs are like this' , one can only come to this conclusion that your the sort of person whos simply looking for a clash of both.

You seen to compartmentalize everyone from either side to a specific group which is at best stereotyping everyone under one banner , something which i associate right wingers to do and conservatives , includes mullah and co. too.

And corn oil , bloody hell the world is saved , we have corn oil. How much do we have of it azazel , wait let us guess how does corn grows , what resources are used to grow corn in the epic numders with which it is grown today ... hmm?

No we really do not go and flog the dead horse of what muslim extremists hate but i am sure they dont hate money , after all they are funded by money themselves , RPG's , airline tickets , bomb making material and guns dont fall from the sky for them. I am sure Laden appreciates his millions too. What they probably do hate is accumulation of wealth under one guy and then ceasing its circulation in the society which leads to disbalance. Ofcourse this doesnt include them all.

I am not twisiting anything , just trying to figure out what your trying to say , your english is very awkward and not easy to understand and the things your trying to say dont come up like the way you probably want them or so i think. And also please if you wanna criticize muslim extremist atleast do so properly , i dont love them either but if theres one thing i cant sit back and watch then its undue blame.

[python3 0]

best to discuss in private so fitnah is not public

[Balschoiw 0]

Charge dropped against Abu Ghraib soldier

Quote[/b] ]FORT HOOD, Texas (Reuters) - The U.S. government has dropped the main charge against a female soldier who

posed in front of a pyramid of naked Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison.

The charge against Sabrina Harman, over viewing and failing to prevent other soldiers from forcing detainees to

masturbate, was dropped without discussion on Saturday. The charge carried a maximum sentence of five years.

Harman now faces five counts of maltreatment, one count of conspiracy and one count of dereliction of duty.

When charges were filed in March, she faced a maximum 17-year sentence. The latest dropped charge reduced the

possible maximum sentence to 6.5 years, said Capt. Patsy Takemura, Harman's military lawyer.

The government dropped four other charges against her in August.

Harman still faces four counts over taking or posing in photographs depicting detainees in sexually humiliating poses

-- including the naked pyramid photo. She is also accused of attaching wires to a hooded detainee and telling him he

would be electrocuted if he fell off the box on which he was standing.

Attorneys for Harman argued that charges related to the photographs of hooded detainees should be dismissed,

because victims must be aware of abuse in order to be abused.

"There is no mental suffering by the mere act of photographing," Takemura said.

Harman is seen in one notorious photograph standing near Spec. Charles Graner -- who has been sentenced to 10

years in prison for his role in the scandal -- giving a "thumbs up" sign behind a pile of naked Iraqis.

In another photo from a separate incident, the Virginia native flashes a broad smile in front of a dead Iraqi.

Harman is the only one of the three women charged in the Abu Ghraib abuses who has not been linked romantically

with Graner, who was sentenced last month.

Harman's lawyers have argued that there was a breakdown of leadership, and she and others became scapegoats

for the failures of a system that reached the highest levels of the military bureaucracy and the Bush administration.

Frank Spinner, another defense attorney, has said that of the seven soldiers from the Army's 372 Military Police

Company charged, his client had the least culpability in the abuse.

On Friday, the same court at Fort Hood sentenced another member of Harman's unit, Sgt. Javal Davis, 27, to six

months behind bars. He stomped on the fingers and toes of the seven bound and hooded inmates in November 2003

before Graner stacked them into a pyramid and posed with Harman.

Reuters

Huh ?

Shia 'poll landslide' set to put religion at heart of Iraqi power

Quote[/b] ]There is a word used often by politicians in Iraq's deep south. It is tahmeech, meaning isolation.

It is used to say that for decades not a single government minister in Baghdad has come from Iraq's second city, Basra. It signifies a generation of discrimination against Shias by Saddam's Sunni-dominated regime.

Now, if the initial results of last Sunday's Iraqi elections prove to represent the final picture, the centre of political gravity has shifted inexorably south - away from the violence of the cities of the north, away from Baghdad and that city's technocratic class - towards the poverty-stricken, dust-blown Shia heartland.

With 35 per cent of all polling stations in Iraq reporting results, the coalition of Shia parties was maintaining a lead of two-thirds of 3.3 million votes counted so far, with the electoral list of religious parties dominating.

As the counting continued yesterday, so did the violence. Four Iraqi soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in Basra.

While Kurdish and Sunni votes have yet to be counted, it is certain the days of the Shias' tahmeech are over. And it is not simply in its physical terms that the south has been long separated from the heart of government. In educational, political and social terms, the gulf is enormous. A tiny proportion of people in the south can be described as muthaqaf, or cultured and educated, compared to those in the north.

In the south, 60 per cent have not progressed beyond primary education, a difference compounded by the religiosity of the largely Shia south. How that Shia religiosity will fit into Iraq's new government and constitution, how it will connect with secular Kurds and Sunnis, has become a pressing issue. Central is the role of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who encouraged the formation of List 169 - the Candle List of largely Shia religious parties. It was Sistani too who ordered Shias to vote. And it was he who was influential in the decision of Shia politicians last year to walk out at the end of negotiations on the interim constitution. The question now is what role he will play in Iraq's new politics.

Sayeed Ali al-Safi al-Hakim is Sistani's representative in Basra. He says he speaks only for himself, but it is clear that he reflects the feelings of the clerical leadership, the marjiya, about religion and politics. He says that Islam should be a framework for governance and that, where secular politics risks leaving that path, the clerical authority would intervene. 'The marjiya called people to vote because it provides the shade for all Iraqis to enjoy,' he said.

Although he denies the Candle List was actively endorsed by Sistani and the marjiya in Najaf, many Shia preachers at the Friday prayers before the elections gave voters that impression, with at least one going so far as to suggest: 'Allah would ask how they voted if they died.'

Hakim prefers to outline a more complex relationship between a future government with strong representation of the religious parties and the religious authority in Najaf. 'The marjiya always leaves people to decide for them-selves,' he tells me. 'But if it believes [a future government] is against the interest of the people, then it will speak.'

It is clear the marjiya will watch carefully the attempt to draw up a new constitution. 'It is for the committee to solve the problems of a new constitution,' says Hakim, 'but it should not oppose this country's Islamic identity.'

This position, says Simon Collis, Britain's consul in Basra, is designed to keep separate the religious and political authorities in Najaf and Baghdad. 'Sistani and those around him think strategically. They want a unified Iraq, so they want guarantees that lock in all Iraqis' rights. That means something Sunnis and Kurds can buy into.

'And if you are looking at what Sistani could have done in terms of interventions, it is clear that he tends towards the quietist school of Shia Islam [that seeks to separate the political and the religious]. If he wanted to be noisier about the vote, he could have. But he used his interventions sparingly.'

While the authority of Sistani and the marjiya is expected to have a significant impact on the way main-stream religious parties, such as SCIRI and Dawa, negotiate in the coming year as the new constitution is drawn up, others are looking to their own authority - and their own clerical leadership - not least the followers of Sadr, who led a violent uprising last summer against coalition troops in the south.

While he encouraged some followers to boycott elections held under 'the occupation', he allowed others to stand for election as independents.

Among these is Salam Maliky, 32, Basra's deputy governor, an English graduate involved in the 1999 uprising before being forced to flee Saddam's secret police. Maliky's relationship with Sadr is different from the relationship between the larger parties and Sistani. 'We are a religious-political entity, not a party. We are interested in getting religion involved in Iraq's political process,' he says.

But while he insists Sadr had no role in the elections, it is clear that he consulted him closely, and Maliky says he will not do anything Sadr would not wish.

'If the new government is to be successful, its basis should be Islam. But I want to stress that none of the religious parties wants to establish an Islamic government in Iraq.

Looks like the orientation towards Iran like Islam fixation within the law of Iraq will be unavoidable although the US already indicated that they will not accept such

Iraqi Shia leaders demand Islam be the source of law

Quote[/b] ]NAJAF - Iraq’s Shia leader Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani and another top cleric on Sunday staked out a demand that Islam be the sole source of legislation in the country’s new constitution.

One cleric issued a statement setting out the position and the spiritual leader of Iraqi Shia made it known straight away that he backed demands for the Koran to be the reference point for legislation.

The national assembly formed after last month’s historic elections is to oversee the drawing up of the new constitution.

The role of Islam has been at the heart of months of debate between rival parties and factions as well as the US-led occupation authority which administered Iraq until last June.

Sistani leads the five most important clerics, known as marja al-taqlid, or sources of emulation, who had portrayed a more moderate stance going into the election.

The surprise statement was released by Sheikh Ibrahim Ibrahimi, a representative of Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Ishaq al-Fayad, another of the marja.

“All of the ulema (clergy) and marja, and the majority of the Iraqi people, want the national assembly to make Islam the source of legislation in the permanent constitution and to reject any law that is contrary to Islam,†said the statement.

A source close to Sistani announced soon after the release of the statement that the spiritual leader backed the demand.

“We advise the government not to take decisions which would shock Muslims, such as the conscription of Muslims and the publication of their photos with foreign instructors,†said Ibrahimi.

“We warn officials against a separation of the state and religion, because this is completely rejected by the ulema and marja and we will accept no compromise on this question.

“If they (the government) want the stability and security of the country, they must not touch the country’s Islamic values and traditions,†the sheikh said.

The role of Islam was a particular sticking point when an interim constitution was drawn up under the US-led occupation.

After often acrimonious debate and the threat of a veto by US administrator Paul Bremer, the final version completed in March last year said that Islam should be “a source†of legislation.

No law that “contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam†would be accepted, said the final draft of the so-called â€fundamental lawâ€.

Sistani and the other top clerics mainly live in the central holy city of Najaf.

On top of Sistani and Fayad, there are the ayatollahs Bashir al-Najafi and Mohammad Said Hakim. A fifth, Ayatollah Kazem al-Hairi, lives in Iran.

So what will this be going to ? Free will or forced definition ?

[kerosene 0]

Lots of christians in America feel there values should be incorporated into law, why would'nt a lot of muslims feel the same way? Did the U.S not see this one coming?

Even if the Americans stop it initially, there will probably be a gradual drift towards at least using their religous values as a basis for law. (Assuming they get and maintain a democratic government.)

[Scrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]kerosene Posted on Feb. 06 2005,13:39

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Lots of christians in America feel there values should be incorporated into law, why would'nt a lot of muslims feel the same way? Did the U.S not see this one coming?

Even if the Americans stop it initially, there will probably be a gradual drift towards at least using their religous values as a basis for law.  (Assuming they get and maintain a democratic government.)

I agree, even if it probably puts us back onto a political collision course years down the road.  The will of the people in the region is such to do what you said. That is, after all, what democracy is all about. The important point is that people now have a method to communicate as a whole.  The Iraqi nation has a chance to gel it's dissimilar groups, and hopefully think for themselves, not a fatwa by one cleric - though using the same values as a guide.  What's the difference you ask?  Moderation.

[Akira 0]

In case anyone cares, a friend of mine's brother just published a book about his experiences in Op: Iraqi Freedom (he won the Navy Cross).All the money also is apparently going to the children who lost parents in Iraq. It's basically his war journal he kept. I've met him a few times and apparently he is going through some tough religion-based torment based on his Christian up-bringing and reconciling what he did to earn the Navy Cross. All I know is he saved a squad of Marines with closs-quarter combat and a shotgun.

Anyway, here is the link to the book. It's called "I Am My Brother's Keeper, Journal of a Gunny in Iraq."

Also I didn't bring this up to have people make judgement calls. I just brought it up in case if anyone was interested on a first person account.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/06/troops/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military "is clearly stressed," and recruitment of new troops is falling short of plans, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said Sunday.

"It's clearly stressed, but they're performing brilliantly," Rumsfeld said on CNN's "Late Edition." "They're doing a fabulous job, and we're adjusting the incentives and the number of recruiters that are out."

But recent recruiting goals have not been met, exacerbating an already unsatisfactory situation, Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, said last week.

"As it pertains to the National Guard, the Army National Guard in particular, we were woefully underequipped before the war started," he told the House Armed Services Committee. "It's getting -- gets a little bit worse every day."

The National Guard makes up about 40 percent of the U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq, Blum said.

The chief of the Army National Guard, Lt. Gen. Roger C. Schultz, told the House panel that the Guard met only 56 percent of its recruiting quota in January.

The Marine Corps fell 3 percent short of its recruiting goal for January, the first time the Marines have missed a monthly goal since 1995, Maj. Dave Griesmer, spokesman for Marine Corps Recruiting Command, told The Associated Press.

Rumsfeld acknowledged that "a few" goals have not been met, but said the situation is not critical: "Basically overall, recruiting and retention are roughly on track."

If a second war front should open, "it might take somewhat longer, it might be done in a slightly different way, but the estimates I get are that, basically, we're capable of performing the tasks that the president has assigned," Rumsfeld said.

Timetables rejected

Both Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney said Sunday that there is no timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.

Rumsfeld rejected some lawmakers' calls for a timetable to remove U.S. troops from Iraq and left it unclear how many Iraqi troops are able to battle the insurgency.

He insisted there are 136,000 Iraqi security forces but acknowledged that some are "green as grass."

"Numbers are interesting, but they're not determinative," Rumsfeld said.

"Their quality is also important," he said. "Some of them just came out of training. They're green as grass.

"Some of them had been there a year. They fought in Falluja. They helped protect the polling places, and they know what they're doing."

The secretary's comments followed an editorial by Sen. Joe Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, that said the 136,000 figure the administration uses is "meaningless" -- and noted that a year ago Rumsfeld was boasting of more than 200,000 Iraqis in uniform.

"We should focus on real standards, not raw numbers," Biden wrote in Sunday's editions of The Washington Post. "The real standard is straightforward: Can an Iraqi soldier or a policeman do what we ask American soldiers to do?

Biden said he believes "the number of Iraqis prepared to take on the insurgency is somewhere between 4,000 and 18,000."

Rumsfeld would not give his own estimate. And he rejected any suggestion that Iraqi troops need to provide services on par with U.S. troops before the administration pulls out.

Rumsfeld also said the goal is to prepare Iraqi troops to defend against "internal insurgency" -- not threats from neighboring nations.

"That could take many years, for them to develop the military capability to stand against an external aggression," he said.

But when asked when Iraqi security forces would be ready to take over, Rumsfeld mentioned potential threats from two neighbors, Iran and Syria, in addition to terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Rumsfeld accused Syria of not doing all it can to stop insurgents from entering Iraq.

Leading the charge for a timetable is Sen. Ted Kennedy, a Massachusetts Democrat, who complained Sunday that Rumsfeld "indicated that they really didn't have a plan to win the peace after winning the war."

Kennedy told reporters he believes the Bush administration should be in a position to set a timetable after last Sunday's elections.

But Cheney reiterated the administration's position against setting deadlines.

"The responsible Iraqis, the ones we've been working with, understand," he said on "Fox News Sunday." "Once we've completed the mission, we've stood up an effective Iraqi government and they have security forces in place to be able to take care of their own, then we're out of there."

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Attorneys for Harman argued that charges related to the photographs of hooded detainees should be dismissed,

because victims must be aware of abuse in order to be abused.

And the attorney of the Abu Gharib ring leader argued that how could it be torture when cheer leaders form pyramids all the time at football matches.

They both make alot of sense,don't they,now

[Acecombat 0]

Anyone seen this:

Is the case for Iran now being made slowly via Iraq?

Quote[/b] ]Clue on RAF crash missile

07feb05

THE RAF Hercules transport plane that crashed in Iraq killing Australian Paul Pardoel was hit by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile that insurgents obtained from Iran.

Loads of assumptions in that news article , what do you guys think?

[Balschoiw 0]

6 Missiles ?

That´s a hell lot of money and effort for one plane.

And for the countermeasures, why should 6 missiles make a difference to let´s say 2 ? Flares and chaff are unguided. So what´s the point ? Hmm.

Another thing I´ve heard about is that the USA is currently building up the MEK, an internationally labelled terrorist organization wich is resident in Iraq to conduct operations within Iran for them. Saddam supported them with light tanks and arms as they were fighting the mullah regime in Iran. When the coaltion invaded Iraq the MEK held still and was allowed to keep small arms. Today it is said that the Pentagon sponsors MEK training through "Global Options" for Iran operations. This would mean that the US is not itself involved in operations within Iran but can direct them. What is interesting is that the representants of the Pentagon and Global Options seek to change the status of the MEK from a terrorists organization to a regular one. Indication for cooperation ?

German source:

Kriegsziel Iran: Die geheimen Pläne der US-Regierung

Global options

[theavonlady 2]

MEK and MKO are the same.

A reminder of their OFP squad.

[kerosene 0]

So the C130's counter measures were designed on the assumption that it would never have more than one missile fired at it?

I'm having a hard time with that one.

[billybob2002 0]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050207/D883DUN00.html.

Quote[/b] ]

Guard Member Demoted for Mud Wrestling

Feb 6, 10:24 PM (ET)

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) - A female member of a National Guard military police unit was demoted for indecent exposure after a mud-wrestling party at the Army-run Camp Bucca detention center in Iraq, a military spokesman said Sunday.

The party occurred Oct. 30, as the 160th Military Police Battalion, an Army Reserve Unit from Tallahassee, Fla., prepared to turn over its duties to the Asheville-based 105th Military Police Battalion, said Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, spokesman for detainee operations at Camp Bucca.

In the course of the transfer of duties, "some individuals in their exuberance decided to put together a mud-wrestling thing," Johnson said Sunday by telephone. "There were females involved, and some members of the 105th also became involved, one female soldier in particular."

Following an inquiry, that soldier was demoted and placed on restriction for participating in the event, specifically for indecent exposure, he said.

Four or five other members of the 105th who were spectators received counseling, Johnson said.

Johnson did not release the name of the demoted soldier. However, she was identified by the Daily News as Deanna Allen, 19, and the New York newspaper's identification was confirmed by her mother, Ladyna Waldrop of Black Mountain.

Allen was demoted from specialist to private first class. She is still a guard at the camp, the newspaper said.

The Daily News said it was given 30 of the party photos, and it printed several in Sunday's editions.

Waldrop said her daughter is devastated by the events.

"It was just a thing where she was coerced by a bunch of people, and with all the excitement, she lost her sanity for a moment and that's all it took," she said.

"It seems like they're just singling her out," Waldrop said. "She's the one getting all the publicity and punishment, and that's not right."

The 105th took over Camp Bucca on Nov. 1, and photos of the party were found after the 160th had left Iraq, Johnson said, adding that he understood a soldier had turned over the photos to commanders.

Results of the inquiry were sent to the commander of the 160th, he said. "It appears from the commander's inquiry that this was primarily put on by troops of the 160th, who are no longer under our command," Johnson said.

It wasn't immediately clear Sunday if any members of the 160th had been disciplined.

The party was isolated, Johnson said. "Detainees were nowhere in the vicinity," he said. "They had no possible way of seeing what occurred."

A scandal involving the separate Abu Ghraib prison erupted last spring when photographs were made public showing soldiers taunting naked Iraqi prisoners.

Waldrop said she communicates with her daughter almost every day via Internet instant messaging, and they also see each other by means of a Web camera. "She's very tearful, very upset," Waldrop said.

Waldrop said she was proud of her daughter for joining the National Guard. "But I hate that this happened, and so does she," she said. The party "just got way out of hand, and before you know it, pictures were taken, and she didn't have time to react.

"My mom and I have both had talks with her that she's supposed to be an example for her country."

Pic from drudge:

[billybob2002 0]

How low can you go...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....c_rules

Quote[/b] ]

Islamic Radicals Hunt Barbers in Baghdad

Mon Feb 7, 2:05 AM ET Middle East - AP

By OMAR SINAN, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Umm Ali says militants killed her son last month for the most unlikely of reasons: He trims men's beards.

In Baghdad's Dora neighborhood, residents say Sunni Muslim extremists have made barbers the new hunted, accusing them of violating a strict reading of Islamic teachings that say men should keep their beards long.

Some extremists also consider Western-style haircuts an offensive symbol of the hated, secularized culture of Europe and the United States.

To them, sporting a clipped beard or a modern haircut is an infraction worthy of death.

Black banners mourning the dead were strung up in the neighborhood as the unwitting violators fell one after another to the militants' harsh brand of justice. In one month alone, five barbers were shot dead, residents said.

"He was a haircutter. He only cuts hair," Umm Ali said of her son, Sadiq Abdul Hussein. "He was handsome," she said, gazing at a photo of him.

Abdul Hussein was killed after he shrugged off a threat to stop shaving men's beards or lose his life.

A black mourning banner said only that he died due to a "regrettable incident."

Dora's streets are a battleground for rebels fighting U.S. and Iraqi forces. Drive-by shootings targeting government officials are frequent. It's a symbol of the chaos that has followed Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s ouster nearly two years ago.

Masked, gun-totting militants freely roam its streets, issuing orders and threats and meting out punishment to those who challenge them.

Among the many offenses that run afoul of Dora's new extremist gangs are men with long hair, goatees and even sideburns.

Wesam Noori, a 19-year-old art student, is careful to keep his long hair tucked under a hat.

"We are trying to hide our hair under baseball caps or ski hats," he said.

Iraqi Christians have also been targeted here by insurgents who consider them close to American and other foreign occupiers because they share the same religion. Four churches have been attacked in Dora in deadly car bombings.

Islamic militants have also publicly flogged and killed women's hairdressers in several places throughout Iraq (news - web sites).

On Jan. 27, Sadiq Abdul Hussein was cutting a customer's hair when a tall man with a scarf wrapped around his face walked through the door. He opened fire with an assault rifle, killing Abdul Hussein and wounding his customer, Imad Hammad, a 26-year-old engineer.

"I saw the flash from the gun's muzzle and after that I passed out," said Imad, who was shot in the belly.

Imad's father, Hamad al-Dulaimi blamed foreigners for the killings and said they sought to create turmoil here.

"Those Arab extremists are butchering our sons simply to create a disturbance," he said. "We will not be stopped by this sedition."

As if to illustrate his promise that life here couldn't be stopped by violence, a tranquil street scene unfolded on a recent afternoon. Barefoot children kicked around a dented Pepsi can. Mothers sat on front stoops, chatting and gesturing with hands decorated with traditional green tattoos.

But Ali Hussein, a 25-year-old barber who owns a salon in Dora, says the threat is real enough to threaten his livelihood.

Like other barbers, he's gotten the flyers from militants bearing their instructions for how to cut hair and promising death for those who violate the rules.

"They are even forbidding us to hang posters showing the most recent haircuts," Hussein said.

He now cuts customers' hair in secret inside his house.

"I don't want to be killed, but I don't want to be broke either," he said.