The Iraq thread 4

[Baphomet 0]

Dan Rather must of had a hard time saying that today was a remarkable success.

Yes, it truly is difficult to call it a remarkable success.

What the hell does Dan Rather have to do with it? I mean really? He arrogantly and wrongly denied his sources were incorrect when he did that exposee on GWB's military record... so that basically made him the great satan to every nascar shirt wearing american, but it still has nothing to do with the current situation in Iraq. Trust someone like you to use Iraqis voting as a means to take a stab at someone like Dan Rather. It's bloody hilarious.

Yeah. Well people thought the invasion was a remarkable success. I can't see things being all sunshine and lollipops from here on out. They're not going to just roll over and stop fighting.

Don't hold your breath. Nice as it was that many all got out and voted. I mean... all it takes is a few votes to elect someone conceivably. I think the opposition to these elections know this. You'll see violence stepped up as the new administration has started to take root or after. Since then, they'll have a definite target.

[theavonlady 2]

Dan Rather must of had a hard time saying that today was a remarkable success.

Yes, it truly is difficult to call it a remarkable success.

No it's not.

Imagine such cranky leftist rantings being around in the late 1700's, commenting on events in the 13 colonies and France.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]

but terrorists read the quaran daily don't they? since they have to be very fixated on teachings to fuel their cause.

Well its like saying Southern Baptists should know not to preach hatred towards gays and lesbians when Jesus taught to hate the sin not the sinner.  The problem with any organized religion written in text is that it can be interpreted a million different ways.  The Qu'ran has tons of stuff that is very ambiguous or that is more of a historical account.  Yet Islamic extremists interpret some parts of the Qu'ran to mean that what happened then is to be acted upon until Judgement Day.  But their interpretations are easy to refute based on the historical timeline certain verses were written. Because of this, if their interpretations were true, then the Qu'ran would be contradicting itself...something all Muslims believe it does not. So that in itself will prove to most Muslims that the terrorists are wrong in certain extremist interpretations such as that Jews are to be cursed eternally. That passage he refers to the Jewish tribes in Medina who betrayed the early Muslims. However in other parts of the Qu'ran he says nice things about Jews.  

Militants basically ignore many parts of Islam and concentrate only on what supports their own hatred and/or political agendas.  That's nothing new in the realm of politics and religion.  The name of God has been invoked all through Christianity to commit horrific attrocities.  

In Islam it is the Imam (Islamic cleric) that most Muslims use their primary source of understanding the Qu'ran.  If their Imam teaches a militant, hateful interpretation, they simply believe their Imam is more knowledgable then they are and tend to listen to him more.  Also many of them, like many Christians are too lazy to read the Qu'ran for themselves and simply rely upon their Imams to tell them what everything says and means.

Quote[/b] ]

wouldn't they have already known that? i'm not muslim but i already know jihad is a personal sacrifice on many things. Military jihad clearly states killing of women and children and destruction of the environment is not lawful in the quran

Yes, but some of the extremists just ignore the Qu'ran and use some obscure Hadiths (collections of sayings and history of the prophet Mohammed).  There are 40,000 Hadiths and some are less authentic then others.  These are used to give the Qu'ran context, but many are very questionable.  The Qu'ran is supposed to be above these Hadiths if there is a contradiction between them.  Yet some extremist Muslim Imams will place the Hadiths above the Qu'ran if it justifies their political beliefs.  

One of their main arguements for killing civilians is that all American civilians are tax payers and thus willingly support their government's actions against Muslims around the world.   Of coarse this a idiotic arguement (hell most Americans HATE paying taxes and most know that we are a deeply divided nation when it comes to this war in Iraq).

But nobody tells these guys anything different often or they just blindly obey whatever their militant Imam says.

Its not all that different then how normally good, morally strong, hardworking, and honest German citizens obeyed Hitler and the Nazi regime and supported the genocide of millions upon millions of human beings.  You can't help but ask yourself, "how could anyone have supported such madness."

Its not at all difficult.  Hitler used patriotism, and ethnic identity.    Al-Qaeda uses the concept of the Uma (the world body of Islam).   They tell young Muslim men that they ARE THE SWORD OF ALLAH TO BRING JUSTICE TO THE WORLD.  They make these malleable young men feel that they are part of something bigger.  That they are WARRIORS OF GOD defending against the FORCES OF SATAN (aka-USA) and that no matter what they are guaranteed entrance into heaven.  So for these young Muslim men yearning to be warriors of their faith it is a deeply romantic picture that Al-Qaeda paints for them.   It is not that different then the Samurai mentality, except that Al-Qaeda does not focus on fighting honorably.  Instead they teach to fight using all means necessary and to use every dirty trick in the book.   One sect of Al-Qaeda even shaves their beards, drinks alcohol, and eats pork in order to blend in with Westerners and appear very non-religious.  To them its just a means to an end.  It doesn't matter what they do before dying to them because they believe they will be guaranteed entrance into heaven.  

As for what Jihad means.  It literally means "struggle".  There are two main Jihads.  The big Jihad and the small Jihad.  The big Jihad is the first and most important Jihad to fight.   It is the fight against our carnal desires, arrogance, and pride.  The small Jihad is fighting against invaders.  

Quote[/b] ]

i was also saying that a terrorists usually gets educated by extemists schools due to the fact of poverty. some extremists groups set up schools in poverty areas to poison minds of people.

Yeah the Saudi based Wahabi/Salefi schools do that.  But there are also other extremists groups that run the madrass schools in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province.  These are usually home-bred extremists although often they have ties with Saudi Wahabis.

But Wahabis/Salefis are not necessarily terrorists.  They are simply conservatives.  However their teachings are what tend to inspire terrorists.  Nevertheless terrorists are not true Wahabis/Salefis because they add all kinds of crazy stuff to the religion...something Wahabis/Salafis are absolutely against.

Quote[/b] ]

The media strategy was very good though, but it would be hard even if the country in question is able to view it to its population. would they actually allow it to be viewed.

In most cases, money talks.  If the commercials are not a threat to the nation's regimes, then yes.  Or if we pay enough money to their government (maybe throw some hi-tech military sales their way) they will likely say yes.  If they say no, there are covert ways of spreading propganada.  There is also the internet which is perhaps the best propganda tool in such a campaign.  

Quote[/b] ]

but media power is another step at least.

this is the last time i'm going mention pablo escobar since this thread really doesnt relate to him. He was a drug lord none the less, of course he would of shared his wealth to the towns he liked but so did other gangsters and dictators, saddam for one.

and wow, was the party extravagant?

Oh yeah..very extravagant.  Kinda like something you'd see in the movies.  Beautiful hacienda with a huge pool, body guards roaming around, tons of beautiful women, and tons of alcohol.

It was very very nice.  Unfortunately I was just a kid then and just went with some friends of one of my cousins who knew them.  But yeah people in that area loved the man.

Similarly, many in the Middle East love Osama Bin Laden because he also donated alot of his wealth to helping poor Muslims.

Quote[/b] ]

But yeah i'm very suprised the media was not fully used to combat terrorism. But it's another question if it'll work since it has never been tried and the question of countries letting the media broadcast an american made product. they could call it propoganda or they could really take in, but most would be educated in the quaran anyway. so who knows.

Actually there are plenty of non-practicing Muslims in the Arab world and many Middle Eastern governments have highly secularized governments and militaries.  For some radical Islam is a great threat to them, so they may in fact welcome sucy commercials.  Each country is different, and negotiations would have to be done on a case by case basis.

Quote[/b] ]

I think there are lots of people in the whitehouse or senate finding alterantive ways but can't be heard to to their low status in politics.

yeah that's really a good one, MEDIA could to be used more.

have already typed up all new age things, can't you send it ot senators or something?

Yeah I'm in the process of submiting various proposals to agencies and senators.

Quote[/b] ]

no i don't. You can be a supporter but not go out of your way doing things that cause deaths of people. it's like saying "i support terrorism but i won't help them", that makes you a supporter.

collaborators are the ones who support and help terrorist kill civillians and soldiers.

Ah ok..thanks for the clarification.

Anyways Inshallah (God willing) as they say, someone will pick up these ideas and run with them. I don't care if my name never gets mentioned and someone else gets credit if they work.  I just care about doing something to improve the world before I die.    The funny thing is that I get these ideas from a sci-fi book called, "Heretics of Dune" by Frank Herbert.  

But my background in psychology and cultural anthrpology allows me to take this sci-fi stuff and shape it into a realistic plan with a real chance of succeeding.

Essentially what it comes down to is the manipulation of relgion in order to save the human race from itself.  It is, as Frank Herbert calls it, the Missionaria Protectiva.

He also calls it, "noble purpose".  That is basically what I believe in.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[ruff 102]

good stuff. But you do know you can't covert every terrorist ideals like bin landen. for them to me, my answer is still a bullet.

But if your proposal does get picked up, it seems you also have lots of them, it would help current situations in iraq and war on terror.

now the only biggest thing i see that really blocks the future of iraq is the hundreds of years of fighting of the sunni and shia in iraq. now that's a big thing in my view to fix. it's like the years of war against the protestants and catholics in ireland. At least we know it can be resolved.

oh yeah, what about countries like iran and syria?

[ruff 102]

I still believe now that collaborators and terrorists deserve the same as each other if they cause deaths of civillians and soldiers.

Power of the media could be used as to deter terrorists support and collaborators and change the mindset of SOME who have the POWER to change. But for the harcore terrorists and collaborators a bullet is NECCESSARY.

Since the media does not change attitudes, only broaden perspective on things. Overall media cannot change a persons mindset on things in the end, it's up to the individual.

My final view in the Iraq war:

*step up MEDIA war (psy ops) using the quaran to contradict terrorists efforts

*more "hearts and minds" for greater support of the coalition.

*Collaborators who willingly help terrorists and cause deaths of civillians and soldiers deserve no less than a bullet.

*more international forces

PSY OPS will lessen sunni support for terrorists and collaborators, leaving terrorists and their collaborators no where to hide.

Therefore they are easier to target for the coalition, with less civillian casualties.

Increased support for the coalition due stepped up PSY OPS will lead to everyone pointing out where the enemies are. Then the terrorist and collaborators lose. (The perfect outcome in my mind).

Iraq becomes a democracy and US forces leave with one small base.

That was my final optimistic thought and opinion on what has to be done on Iraq.

i just heard in the news today 40 iraq people died while voting. But the rest who voted showed how excited and happy they were that they could properly vote. freedom comes at a price.

THE END for me anyway.

[Ares1978 0]

it could be used as a THREAT

e.g. u start killing hostages we start killing your family

like what happened to PABLO ESCOBAR

he halted his attacks against civillians once the government claimed to protect his family from his enemies

and i wasnt implying it on being used in a urban civilliased environment where the government and policing works

im talking about a warzone here, where everyday a person gets killed.

What makes you think they aren't prepared to sacrifice their families?

People are killed in traffic every day, it's no excuse to run people over.

And the correct answer is yes, he is a terrorist no matter what his excuse is. You are what you do. If you feel that terrorism in some specific case is justified, that's one thing, but a terrorist is always a terrorist.

[ruff 102]

well my final thoughts were is before your post. read

read all my posts since then.

You will see my views fully.

Extreme action required to Preven Extereme terrorist action.

"to summarise, i still believe a bullet is the answer to a terrorist and extreme action is needed (not the elsavador option for like the third time now) to PREVENT EXTREME TERRORIST ATTACKS to occur (dirty bombs/bio weapons)."

with miles teg "new approach" can be tried with both lethal force. killing terrorists and collaborators while taking over media.

and who also knows  if a terrorist is willing to sacrifice his family? he might not and he might. you'll never know. look at saddam, he surrendered yet everyone was saying he'll fight to the death. no one ever knows.

i've changed my view on that as well but when it comes to extreme threat such as nukes being acquired by terrorists i wouldn't rule out any action.

[Balschoiw 0]

US mismanaged $US8.8b of Iraq funds

Quote[/b] ]The US-led authority that governed Iraq after the 2003 invasion did not properly safeguard $US8.8 billion ($11.4 billion) of Iraq's own money and this lack of oversight opened up these funds to corruption, a US audit has concluded.

The US Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction was scathing in criticism of how the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) handled Iraqi money until it handed over power last June to Iraq's interim Government.

"The CPA provided less-than-adequate controls for approximately $8.8 billion in DFI [Development Fund for Iraq] funds provided to Iraqi ministries through the national budget process," said the report, released on the same day Iraqis voted in elections.

"We believe the CPA management of Iraq's national budget process and oversight of Iraqi funds was burdened by severe inefficiencies and poor management," he said.

DFI is made up of proceeds from Iraqi oil sales, frozen assets from foreign governments and surplus from the UN oil-for-food program. Its handling has already come under fire by several UN-mandated audits.

The report said the CPA failed to ensure funds were not used to pay "ghost" employees and cited one example where CPA officials authorised payment for about 74,000 guards but only a fraction of these could later be validated.

The audit said there was no assurance that the funds were used for purposes mandated by United Nations resolutions.

UN auditors have also accused the CPA of sloppily managing billions of dollars of Iraqi oil money and moving at a glacial pace to guard against corruption.

Bremer rejection

Former CPA chief Paul Bremer, who received a Presidential Medal of Freedom last month for his work in Iraq, rejected the US audit's findings and said it did not "meet the standards that Americans have come to expect of the Inspector General".

"The draft report assumes that Western-style budgeting and accounting procedures could be immediately and fully implemented in the midst of war," said Mr Bremer in a written reply to auditors when he received the first draft.

Mr Bremer said any delays in paying Iraqi public servants' salaries would have raised the security threat to Iraqis and Americans and cost more lives.

In addition, Mr Bremer said the Iraqi ministries had no regular payroll systems and the "system had been corrupted beyond repair by decades of cronyism and ad hoc fixes".

The auditors said they understood the CPA was working in a dangerous environment but it had a responsibility to ensure Iraqi ministries had basic financial controls before they were entrusted with handling such large amounts of money.

"The fact that the Iraqi ministries ceased to or had never functioned, lacked basic tools and operated in a cash economy was precisely why the CPA should have provided oversight of the financial management of the funds."

A review of 10 payments made by the CPA Comptrollers Office between October 2003 and June 2004 found none of these - ranging between $US120 million and $US900 million - included documentation such as budget spending plans.

In another example, about $US1.5 billion in cash allocations was made to Iraqi banks between January and April 2004 for operating expenses, yet spending plans supported only about $US498 million in these expenses.

The Defence Department also rejected the findings and said the "sweeping and unqualified conclusion" was not accurate.

One of the main benefactors of Iraq funds was Texas-based firm Halliburton, which was paid about $US1.7 billion dollars out of those funds to bring in fuel for Iraqi civilians.

UN auditors have asked for a full accounting of these funds.

Whoopsy, we lost track of some money....only little money you know...but who cares as it wasn´t our money anyway...

No wonder Bremer speeded out of Iraq once his mission had failed...

While the excellent, superb, worldwide warm welcomed, supa dupa Condi Rice rattles the drum again. Congratulations USA, you got yourself a really excellent foreign minister. Hahaha.

Rice criticises Iran, Syria

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON: US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice expressed concern on Sunday over the actions of Iran and Syria in Iraq, saying the two countries have not been helpful.

"We certainly are concerned by the role that Iran has tried to play in Iraq," Rice said in an interview with the ABC television programme. "The Iranians need to understand that the Iraqis are going to build their own future that is going to be very different than the Iranian regime," Rice said.

In an interview with CNN about Syria’s role in Iraq, Rice said: "The Syrians have not been as helpful as they should be, and we have made that very clear. We believe that there are insurgents and insurgent support networks that have operated out of Syria, and we asked them to do a number of things to stop that."

Replying to a question what type of pressure could be applied to Damascus, Rice said: "We have tools. I would hope that the Syrians would be more responsive," she added. As for Iran, Rice told CNN, "Iranians have engaged in some activities that we think are unhelpful in Iraq. Iran is Iraq’s neighbour, and we expect there to be transparent and neighbourly relations between Iran and Iraq.

She expects what ? Is she running Iraq also ? She has to keep her fingers out of the relations as she expects others to keep their fingers out of that. If the Iraqi population is symphatizing with Iran it´s not her business to interfere as she has no right to do so unless she´s an elected member of the Iraq leadership. A US passport does not automatically turn her into the foreign mistress of Iraq. Could anyone please tell her that little detail.

Yeah Condi, that´s the way aha, aha we like it.

Condi stupid.

[theavonlady 2]

If the Iraqi population is symphatizing with Iran

And what if they're not?

Quote[/b] ]Condi stupid.  

Many of us have the same feelings about crackpots from the other side of the planet.

And they seem to be in abundance.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And what if they're not?

And what if they are ?

Quote[/b] ]But shortly after the polls had closed an official from the party leading a powerful Shia coalition said, as expected, that their surveys suggested the coalition had come out ahead. "According to our public opinion surveys in all the provinces, we won," said Ammar al-Hakim, the son of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim who leads the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

The party heads an alliance of Shia religious parties known as the United Iraqi Alliance which has been tacitly endorsed by Iraq's leading Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

Iraqi voters defy the bombers

It´s fre to choose you know. Condi among others has just no option to choose anything for the Iraqi´s. Freedom is choosing on their own, not someone who chooses for them.

Quote[/b] ]Many of us have the same feelings about crackpots from the other side of the planet.

Unfortunally the "crackpots" have the better arguments and were right about all the US nonsense that has been served to them before and throughout Bush´s Iraq tour.

You can call them whatever you want, but fact is that NONE of the US claims that this war was based upon turned out to be true.

Who are the "crackpots" now ?

People who were right with their fears and facts, or people who were totally wrong.

Who are the "crackpots" now, Avon Lady ?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]And what if they're not?

And what if they are ?

Quote[/b] ]But shortly after the polls had closed an official from the party leading a powerful Shia coalition said, as expected, that their surveys suggested the coalition had come out ahead. "According to our public opinion surveys in all the provinces, we won," said Ammar al-Hakim, the son of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim who leads the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

The party heads an alliance of Shia religious parties known as the United Iraqi Alliance which has been tacitly endorsed by Iraq's leading Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

It's time you learned to distinguish between some very fine nuances:

Quote[/b] ]A NEW VOICE IS BEING HEARD IN IRAN

by Amir Taheri

Wall Street Journal

July 12, 2004

While the world is justly focusing on the movement of terrorists and weapons from Iran into newly liberated Iraq, a movement of ideas and those who preach them traveling in the opposite direction may prove to have more lasting consequences in the long run.

The ideas are coming from Najaf, a dusty nondescript town in southern Iraq which is re-emerging as the principal center of Shi'ite Islam after a hiatus of more than three decades. The men who are taking those ideas into Iran are Iranian and Iraqi clerics who believe that Khomeinism -- the official religion of the Islamic Republic in Tehran -- represents a betrayal of their faith.

The man in whose name the doctrinal challenge to Khomeinism is launched is 73-year old Grand Ayatollah Ali-Muhammad Hussein Sistani, the primus inter pares of Shi'ite theologians in Najaf.

Until Iraq's liberation last year, Ayatollah Sistani was under restrictions imposed by Saddam Hussein, and unable to communicate with his native Iran. In the final years of the Saddam regime, the grand ayatollah was not even allowed to teach.

In the past 15 months, however, Ayatollah Sistani has resumed contact with Shi'ite communities throughout the world, the first of which was Iran. Ayatollah Sistani has been sending emissaries to Iran to renew contact with the clergy, the bazaars, and the thousands of non-governmental organizations that have sprung up in recent years.

By the end of June Ayatollah Sistani had named representatives in 67 Iranian towns and cities, including the capital Tehran. At the same time a stream of visitors from Iran, including many clerics, are received by the ayatollah in his mud-brick home in downtown Najaf each day. Ayatollah Sistani's Persian-language Web site is attracting more than three millions visitors each month from Iran.

"Today, Sistani is probably the most influential Shi'ite [religious] leader in the world," says Sabah Zangeneh, who was Tehran's ambassador to the Organization of Islamic Conference until last year. "Many Iranians see in him a revival of the mainstream Shi'ite theology."

Many clerics agree. "It is now clear to most Shi'ites that Khomeinism is a political ideology and a deviation [from the faith]," says Ayatollah Mahmoud Qomi-Tabatabi. "Those who represent authentic Shi'ism cannot speak out in Iran. This is why the Najaf clergy, especially Sistani, are emerging as a pole of attraction for Iranians."

Another Iranian cleric, Hadi Qabel, says that Khomeinism should be regarded as "a political ideology" while Shi'ism, as a religious faith, is represented by "theologians like Sistani who do not seek power."

Hassan Sanai, a prominent mullah in Qom, sees the liberation of Najaf as "a gift from God." "Shi'ism needs a theological center that is not controlled by a government," Ayatollah Sanai says. "It is natural that Najaf should play that role. With Sistani now able to address the [shi'ite] community, the faith could resume its natural course."

But in what way does Sistanism -- if such a term is allowed -- differ from Khomeinism? Some secular Shi'ite intellectuals claim that there is no difference. "A mullah is a mullah under any guise," says sociologist Nasser Zamani. "All mullahs want [political] power. Some, like Khomeini, seek it directly; others like Sistani, indirectly."

But this is precisely what makes Ayatollah Sistani's version of Shi'ism attractive to many. In Shi'ism all power belongs to God and is exercised by the 12 "immaculate" Imams, the last of whom disappeared in Iraq in the 9th century. In the absence of the Imam, the community rules itself as best as it can. The tasks of the government are limited to law and order, defending the community against aggression, and maintaining a minimum of administration. The believers could consult the clergy on matters about which they themselves cannot form a judgment. But here a free market of ideas exists in the sense that the believer can choose whom to consult and whether or not to accept the views of the clerics.

Khomeinism, however, is a totalitarian ideology in which the clergy have a monopoly on power. They name one of their own as "Faqih al-Wali" ("theological guide") who is given absolute power for life. Designated as "The Supreme Guide," he could even order a suspension of the basic rules of Islam.

Khomeinism describes the people as "mustazafeen" (the feeble ones) who are incapable of discerning good from evil for themselves. Although Khomeinism uses part of the Shiite mythology, religious vocabulary and iconography, it must be treated as a distinct doctrine. The key slogans of Khomeinism make this clear. Everywhere in Iran one sees giant slogans reading: God, Quran, Khomeini!

Mainstream Shiites, as well as other Muslims, see these slogans as forms of "kufr" (impiety) because they associate a mortal, in this case Khomeini, with God while making no mention of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam. Inspired by North Korean and Maoist models, images of Khomeini have been carved in mountains or grown as mini-forests, visible even from the skies -- a cult of personality bordering on idolatry.

Khomeinism is a cocktail in which Shi'ism is an almost accidental ingredient. Its basic ingredient is a hatred of the West, especially the United States. It is also influenced by Marxism, with such ideas as thought control, single-party rule and the command of the economy by the state.

The contrast between the Khomeini and Ayatollah Sistani versions of Shi'ism was illustrated in a recent debate on whether or not smoking was allowed under Islam. The Iranian Students' Association put the question to both Ayatollah Sistani and the Khomeini's clerics in Qom. Qom's answer was that smoking should be banned by the government, and smokers punished by pubic flogging. Ayatollah Sistani's answer was that the decision must be taken by the individual smoker with full knowledge of the latest medical research on the subject. This was one way of castigating the Khomeinist regime that insists on dictating every aspect of individual life. (There are Khomeinist laws on women's clothes, men's beards, the orientation of a toilette seat, and the amount of alcohol to use in cleaning a wound.)

Ayatollah Sistani's answers to more than 10,000 questions on numerous issues put the emphasis on "wisdom, moderation and caution" in deciding social, cultural and political issues. "When there is no consensus on a matter," Ayatollah Sistani says, "it is best left undecided until there is further discussion, study and research." In other words: no Khomeinist diktat.

The mainstream Shi'ism represented by Ayatollah Sistani was developed in the 20th century by ayatollahs such as Kazem Shirazi and Abol-Hassan Isfahani. The Shi'ite clerics supported the constitutional revolution in both the Ottoman Empire and Persia because they believed that no earthly despot had the right to usurp power that, in the absence of the Imam, belonged only to the people.

Ayatollah Sistani was a disciple of Grand Ayatollah Abol-Qassem Mussavi-Khoi, the last of the great Shi'ite theologians of the 20th century. Between 1975 and 1991, Khoi had the largest following of any ayatollah in Iran, Iraq and Lebanon.

Khoi was put under house arrest by Saddam and stopped from teaching in 1990. When Khoi died in mysterious circumstances in Baghdad in 1991, Ayatollah Sistani took over as his spiritual heir.

What Ayatollah Sistani is now doing is to revive Khoi's network in Iran and to offer Shiites an opportunity to practice their faith as they had done before Khomeini seized power in 1979. And that, in political terms, is the most serious challenge that Iran's ruling mullahs have faced in a quarter of a century.

Mr. Taheri is an Iranian author of 10 books on Islam and the Middle East

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi voters defy the bombers

It´s fre to choose you know. Condi among others has just no option to choose anything for the Iraqi´s.

She isn't. She's telling Iran and Syria to butt out of Iraq - not Iraqis to butt out of Iran and Syria.

Hasn't it struck you that Iraqis don't like getting blown up by neither Baa'thists nor Islamic zealots, whether from Syria, Saudi Arabia or Iraq?

Quote[/b] ] Freedom is choosing on their own, not someone who chooses for them.

And this coming from folks here who wished Saddam were back in power. Iraqis have freedom? Wonder where that came from.................... ?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Many of us have the same feelings about crackpots from the other side of the planet.

Unfortunally the "crackpots" have the better arguments and were right about all the US nonsense that has been served to them before and throughout Bush´s Iraq tour.

You can call them whatever you want, but fact is that NONE of the US claims that this war was based upon turned out to be true.

Who are the "crackpots" now ?

People who were right with their fears and facts, or people who were totally wrong.

Who are the "crackpots" now, Avon Lady ?

I've pointed them out already.

[theavonlady 2]

US mismanaged $US8.8b of Iraq funds

Please, bring in the new but don't forget that we still haven't thrown out the old (just ignored it):

Quote[/b] ]Kofi Annan’s son admits oil dealing

Robert Winnett and Jonathon Carr-Brown

THE son of the United Nations secretary-general has admitted he was involved in negotiations to sell millions of barrels of Iraqi oil under the auspices of Saddam Hussein.

Kojo Annan has told a close friend he became involved in negotiations to sell 2m barrels of Iraqi oil to a Moroccan company in 2001. He is understood to be co-operating with UN investigators probing the discredited oil for food programme.

The alleged admission will increase pressure on Kofi Annan, the UN secretary general, who is already facing calls for his resignation over the management of the humanitarian programme.

The oil for food programme allowed Saddam to sell oil to buy humanitarian supplies under UN supervision. However, it has emerged that the programme was riddled with corruption as Saddam used it to buy influence around the world.

Several senior UN staff are alleged to have profited from the scheme, and the apparent connection between Kojo and the programme has become the subject of intense international scrutiny. Critics claim that Kofi faces a significant conflict of interest if Kojo sought to profit from the discredited scheme.

Initially it emerged that Cotecna, the company awarded the contract to monitor humanitarian supplies imported into Iraq, had previously employed Kojo and paid him fees throughout the term of the oil for food programme.

However, a friend of Kojo’s said: “He has explained to the investigators that his only involvement with Cotecna was in Nigeria and that he knew nothing about the deal in Iraq. He is looking forward to the investigation report being published so that he will be exonerated on this point.â€

Potentially more serious is his connections with Hani Yamani, the son of Sheikh Yamani, the wealthy former Saudi oil minister who set up Opec. Kojo acted as a director for Hani Yamani’s company and was a close business associate. The pair represented the coming together of two of the world’s most influential families.

In 2001 Yamani lined up a deal to sell about $60m worth of Iraqi oil to a Moroccan company. The Sunday Times has statements from two close business associates of Yamani who claim that Kojo was involved in the deal.

Kojo is alleged to have travelled to Morocco to help finalise the sale and was present at key meetings. However, the sale was abandoned by Yamani. It is not known if the oil was to have been bought direct from Saddam’s oil ministry or whether a third party was involved.

A friend of Kojo’s said: “He was just trying to do Hani a favour. Believe me, Kojo is as straight as they come. In the end the deal never went through because Hani was trying to make an unrealistic profit.â€

Another source, close to Yamani’s business Air Harbour Technologies, said: “Hani Yamani liked to surround himself with the great and the good. Kojo was a very passive executive and I always thought he basically lent his name to the firm. The Annan name obviously has a certain presence when you are putting together deals in Africa.â€

Since the Iraqi deal collapsed, Kojo, 31, has set up a company that imports oil to Nigeria from the Balkan states. He is a regular visitor to England, where he was educated, and has a Å500,000 flat on London’s King Road. He socialises with other well-known Nigerians, is always impeccably dressed and enjoys the use of a chauffeur-driven Mercedes.

Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the American Federal Reserve, is preparing an interim report on the oil for food programme, due to be published on February 8 or 9. But he is not thought to have any “smoking gunâ€. However, some US politicians will pore over it for any evidence that might precipitate Kofi Annan’s departure from the UN.

Last week an American charity released a letter signed by 70 Nobel laureates backing Kofi Annan as secretary-general of the UN. The British government have publicly backed Annan’s position although George W Bush’s support has been less forthcoming.

The publication of the Volcker report is unlikely to mark the end of the scrutiny of Kojo’s affairs. Several American prosecutors have launched criminal inquiries into the oil for food programme. John Ashcroft, the US attorney-general, last week refused to reveal whether Kojo would be subpoenaed when questioned. Friends say any such action would be politically motivated.

Yesterday Kojo declined to comment on any alleged involvement in the programme. His London lawyers continued to deny he had any involvement with Yamani’s Iraqi oil deal.

Daddy, I want a brand new car, champagne, caviar

Daddy, you oughta get the best for me

[kerosene 0]

Quote[/b] ]10 killed in Iraq plane crash

Staff and agencies

Monday January 31, 2005

The defence secretary, Geoff Hoon, today announced that 10 British service personnel were killed when an RAF transport plane crashed in Iraq on Sunday.

In the biggest single loss of life since March 21 2003, when eight British troops died in a US helicopter, nine RAF personnel and one soldier died. One of the crew, Flight Lieutenant Paul Pardoel, a 35-year-old father of three from Australia, was named among the victims.

The C-130 Hercules was flying from Baghdad to Balad, where there is a US military base, when it crashed around 25 miles north-west of the capital. The cause of the crash remains unknown, but a militant group has claimed responsibility.

Mr Hoon said the servicemen's deaths were "especially poignant on a day when Iraqis were able to enjoy the freedom of democratic elections for the first time in many years". He said British and US forces had secured the crash site, and were recovering the bodies and attempting to ascertain the cause of the crash.

A senior US military officer said the wreckage of the plane was scattered over a large area, suggesting a mid-air explosion, but the MoD refused to comment on the speculation until its investigations were complete.

Earlier, the Iraqi militant group Ansar al-Islam posted a statement on an Islamist website, claiming its fighters had tracked the aircraft ,"which was flying at a low altitude", and fired an anti-tank missile at it.

"Thanks be to God, the plane was downed and a huge fire and black clouds of smoke were seen rising from the location of the crash," the statement said.

Ansar al-Islam is thought to have been the creation of Osama bin Laden's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, in the months after September 11. Recently, it has been overshadowed by the Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and the group he has called al-Qaida in Iraq.

Tony Blair's official spokesman said he had no "firm information" on the circumstances surrounding the crash. "All I would say is I think people should be cautious before rushing to judgment," the spokesman added.

Flt Lt Pardoel, from Victoria state, was the first Australian to be killed on military duty in Iraq. The Australian defence department said he had enlisted in the RAF after serving with the Royal Australian Air Force.

The foreign secretary, Jack Straw, paid tribute to the troops killed in the Hercules crash. "Our hearts go out to the families and comrades of those who were killed and injured," Mr Straw said. "These are very brave men, as are all the service personnel who have been killed or injured in the last two years."

C-130 Hercules aircraft, renowned for their reliability, are used to ferry troops and equipment between Britain and Basra in southern Iraq, and between Basra and Baghdad. They do not often fly north of the Iraqi capital.

One of the tabloids said something about them being SAS, but it was the Standard, so mabye that parts wrong.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Please, bring in the new but don't forget that we still haven't thrown out the old (just ignored it):

First of all Avon, I have not ignored it.

What relevance does the behaviour of Kofi´s son have ?

None.

Neither is he a government, nor is he representing the UN or is even a part of them, nor are there any indications that Kofi Annan supported the wrongdoings of his son.

It´s like you would send Bush to jail for the alcohol excesses of his daughters...

The Kojo - thing is irrelevant, while the Iraqi money got lost WHILE UNDER US CONTROL. Governmental control, not control by a single individual unrelated to governmental affairs.

So what is your point again ?

[theavonlady 2]

So what is your point again ?  

That this is the Iraq thread.

[Balschoiw 0]

So ?

from your article:

Quote[/b] ]Since the Iraqi deal collapsed, Kojo, 31, has set up a company that imports oil to Nigeria from the Balkan states. He is a regular visitor to England, where he was educated, and has a Å500,000 flat on London’s King Road. He socialises with other well-known Nigerians, is always impeccably dressed and enjoys the use of a chauffeur-driven Mercedes.

Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the American Federal Reserve, is preparing an interim report on the oil for food programme, due to be published on February 8 or 9. But he is not thought to have any “smoking gunâ€. However, some US politicians will pore over it for any evidence that might precipitate Kofi Annan’s departure from the UN.

Last week an American charity released a letter signed by 70 Nobel laureates backing Kofi Annan as secretary-general of the UN. The British government have publicly backed Annan’s position although George W Bush’s support has been less forthcoming.

So what does this "get Kofi out of office" campaign have to do with the US failures prior, during and after the war or the people in Iraq ?

It´s a dirty US campaign to throw mud on Kofi, nothing else. Not the first try and certainly not the last one unless Bush leaves the White House.

[theavonlady 2]

It´s a dirty US campaign to throw mud on Kofi, nothing else.

Ah. Thank you for revealing why you never bring this subject up. Took a few posts but better late than never.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ah. Thank you for revealing why you never bring this subject up. Took a few posts but better late than never.

No it´s because I´ve been away, fighting the war on terror over the last quarter of the year, that´s why. And that story simply has no relevance to anything in Iraq today, while the US failures DO have relevance a lot as people get blown up, killed, tortured, imprisoned, bombed and all the proposals were swept aside once the US realized that they can not fulfill them.

It´s easy to sit back in your comfortable chair, sipping green tea and going frenzy on those who actually actively fight the war on terror. Go ahead. That had to be expected.

Next time I will insist on a sat-uplink notebook before they send me to war, so that I can please Mrs Avon.

Don´t play stupid, and get a grip on reality, pleeeease !

Otherwise I´d say you´re complete muppets.

[theavonlady 2]

And that story simply has no relevance to anything in Iraq today

And we must receive your approval for what is and isn't relevant?

Quote[/b] ] while the US failures DO have relevance a lot as people get blown up, killed, tortured, imprisoned, bombed and all the proposals were swept aside once the US realized that they can not fulfill them.

It´s easy to sit back in your comfortable chair, sipping green tea and going frenzy on those who actually actively fight the war on terror. Go ahead. That had to be expected.

Once again, only your opinion is to be respected here? Only what you say counts? The rest of us have no say? We can't draw conclusions?

Quote[/b] ]Next time I will insist on a sat-uplink notebook before they send me to war, so that I can please Mrs Avon.

Just ask Osamma for the phone every once in a while.

Quote[/b] ]Otherwise I´d say you´re complete muppets.

Why, thank you.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And we must receive your approval for what is and isn't relevant?

Did I say so ?

You´re invited to point out the relation between Kojo and the situation in Iraq today. I´m very keen on your "theories".

*searches for tinfoilhat*

Facts that do lead or have lead to a situation in Iraq as it is today are relevant in the Iraq thread, not some pumped up theories to hive Kofi out of office.

But as I said, it´s your time: Point out what the Kojo issue has to do with the situation in Iraq today.

I´m always happy about some entertainment.

Quote[/b] ]Once again, only your opinion is to be respected here? Only what you say counts? The rest of us have no say? We can't draw conclusions?

It´s no opinion. It´s facts. Facts collected by non-profit organizations worldwide. No conspiracy theories, but facts.

Makes a difference for me.

You can draw conclusions on whatever you like but if you want to play the game you have to back up yopur opinion with facts. Unless the board has been taken over by martians lately I think we still follow this basic principle.

Now if you want to show us what Kojo Annan´s role in the Iraq war is/was, let us know. Share your knowledge, but as I already pointed out your source says:

Quote[/b] ]Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the American Federal Reserve, is preparing an interim report on the oil for food programme, due to be published on February 8 or 9. But he is not thought to have any “smoking gunâ€. However, some US politicians will pore over it for any evidence that might precipitate Kofi Annan’s departure from the UN.

So I´m a bit confused now. Maybe you can present us a smoking gun that does have relevance for the situation in Iraq today AND is connected to Kojo. Go for it Avon !

And conclusions to be drawn...well don´t you need facts BEFORE you draw conclusions or has the preemptive thinking method already overrun the Avon-mainbrain.

You know all that preemptive things didn´t prove to be very reliant lately, so maybe you should switch back to a fact based thinking model.

Quote[/b] ]Just ask Osamma for the phone every once in a while.

Very funny. I just can´t tell you how funny that is. It´s so extremely funny for someone who just returned from a combat mission that I could puke.

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._solana

Quote[/b] ]

AP Interview: Iraq Can Count on EU Help

Mon Jan 31, 5:41 AM ET Middle East - AP

By CONSTANT BRAND, Associated Press Writer

BRUSSELS, Belgium - European Union (news - web sites) foreign affairs chief Javier Solana said Monday the Iraqi authorities can count on the support of the 25-nation EU after this weekend's elections highlighted the willingness to move toward a democratic Iraq (news - web sites).

The Iraqi people "are going to find the support of the European Union — no doubt about that — in order to see this process move on in the right direction," Solana said in an interview with The Associated Press.

He said that apart from the bloodshed which killed 44, the polls were marred by the lack of Sunni participation in voting.

"That is the only problem of a good day that was yesterday," he said. "Everybody will do the utmost so Sunnis participate in the writing of the constitution."

Solana congratulated "the Iraqi people, who have shown the courage to go to vote in good numbers under circumstances which were very difficult."

"That shows very clearly the will of the Iraqi people to move the country forward in peace and through democratic means," he said. "That's very good news."

The EU's head office said on Friday that it wants to funnel $260 million more in aid to Iraq this year to help with the country's reconstruction and increasing democracy.

The proposals of the EU's executive Commission still need to be approved by the 25 EU member states. The successful election will boost the chances of approval for the aid, which would primarily be used to improve education and health services.

The latest EU contribution would come on top of the $416 million already committed since 2003. The EU member countries individually have pledged some $2.6 billion since the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime.

Solana said the EU would now help authorities prepare a new constitution and assist in training the Iraqi army and police force.

Status Quo (not talking about the article)

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=1692106&PageNum=0

Quote[/b] ]

Georgia sends more troops to Iraq

30.01.2005, 02.16

TBILISI, January 30 (Itar-Tass) - In February, Georgia will send 550 Georgian servicemen to Iraq who will take part in peace-keeping operations there. The additional contingent will join 300 servicemen from Georgia who have been deployed in Iraq since last November, a representative of the Georgian Defense Ministry told Tass.

The additional contingent will be airlifted to Iraq by planes of the US Air Force.

WoW...Georgia

[Balschoiw 0]

Maybe they will need some additional firepower soon...

Turkey slams US over Iraqi Kurds

Quote[/b] ]Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has criticised the US for failing to halt what he called Kurdish efforts to dominate the oil-rich city of Kirkuk in northern Iraq.

Turkey believes Iraqi Kurds, who voted in large numbers in Sunday's election, are trying to wrest control of Kirkuk at the expense of local Arabs and Turkish-speaking Turkmen.

Ankara fears this could herald a concerted drive to build an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq, which might in turn reignite separatism among the Kurds of southeastern Turkey.

"Some people are looking the other way while mass migration [of Kurds to Kirkuk] takes place," the Wall Street Journal on Monday quoted Erdogan as saying in an interview given on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

Major difficulties

"This is going to create major difficulties in the future," Erdogan said.

He added that US President George Bush had assured him he would look into the matter, but had done nothing so far.

Many Arabs and Turkmens in Kirkuk appeared to boycott Sunday's Iraqi elections in protest at what they saw as voting rules favouring the Kurds.

Erdogan, who gave his interview before the Iraqi election, said Turkey was taking its own precautions over Kirkuk, but declined to give details.

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said Turkey could not stand passively by if Kurds took control of Kirkuk, although he stopped short of saying Ankara would send troops into Iraq.

"Our borders are clear. We have no territorial designs," he told the English-language newspaper Turkish Daily News. But he added: Sometimes you may not wish to embark on a road but developments force you to take certain actions ... In democratic countries, governments don't have the luxury of ignoring public sentiment."

American excuse blasted

Erdogan also took the US to task for failing to crack down on an estimated 5000 Turkish Kurdish fighters holed up in the mountains of northern Iraq.

"Their excuse is that they are overwhelmed [in Iraq] but they accept that our demands are just demands and have promised they will deal with it. We have not yet seen action," said Erdogan.

Ankara blames fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) for the deaths of more than 30,000 people during a 20-year armed struggle to carve out a Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey.

Both Kirkuk and the PKK are expected to feature high on the

agenda in Ankara on Monday in talks between Turkish officials

and the Pentagon's outgoing undersecretary of defence for policy, Douglas Feith, a key architect of the Iraq war.

I guess it was in Iraq thread 1 or 2 where I brought up the turkish issue and it has not vanished up to now. It looks like this issue has to be solved someday or the turks will take it into their own hands. There are reports that turkish forces are operating within Iraq´s borders frequently, so I wouldn´t be surprised if they followed the US logic and performed a preemptive strike on PKK stronholds. We´ll see, but an independant kurdish state is definately not on their list of tolerable circumstances.

[ralphwiggum 6]

It´s a dirty US campaign to throw mud on Kofi, nothing else.

Ah. Thank you for revealing why you never bring this subject up. Took a few posts but better late than never.

you'd be surprised how many times i can say that to both sides of argument.

[denoir 0]

Status Quo (not talking about the article)

Indeed. I think there's not much of a chance of that bill passing. The EU has so far officially given €20 million in aid - which is a silly sum.

UK and some of the "coalition of the willing to bend over" have done some more significant contributions individually.

Anyway, I'd be pretty pissed if that bill passed. I'll be damned if my tax money is used to finance a war I was strongly against. Fortunately I'm not the only one that sees it that way.