The Iraq thread 4

[quicksand 0]

That`s nothing,25 Iraqi civillians demonstrating peacefully for Sistani got masacred today at the Kufa mosque that was hit by rockets,the Iraqi civillians are claiming they came under intense gun fire from Iraqi police forces before,extremly gory pictures on CNN.

Quote[/b] ] KUFA, Iraq (AFP) At least 25 people were killed and 60 wounded when a mortar bomb exploded inside the main Kufa mosque, controlled by Shiite militiamen, and another close to its door, a doctor said.

Twenty-five bodies were brought to the Middle Euphrates hospital and 60 others wounded, said Doctor Mohammed Abdul Kazem after the double mortar blast.

According to people who ferried the wounded to the hospital, hundreds had gathered at the mosque, preparing to greet Iraq's Shiite Muslim spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, travelling home to nearby Najaf.

[Badgerboy 0]

That`s nothing,25 Iraqi civillians demonstrating peacefully for Sistani got masacred today at the Kufa mosque that was hit by rockets,the Iraqi civillians are claiming they came under intense gun fire from Iraqi police forces before,extremly gory pictures on CNN.

Quote[/b] ] KUFA, Iraq (AFP)  At least 25 people were killed and 60 wounded when a mortar bomb exploded inside the main Kufa mosque, controlled by Shiite militiamen, and another close to its door, a doctor said.

Twenty-five bodies were brought to the Middle Euphrates hospital and 60 others wounded, said Doctor Mohammed Abdul Kazem after the double mortar blast.

According to people who ferried the wounded to the hospital, hundreds had gathered at the mosque, preparing to greet Iraq's Shiite Muslim spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, travelling home to nearby Najaf.

After watching the 'precision' mortar attacks by the local militias, I would be very surprised if they found the attack wasn't another mortar firing fuckup.

[quicksand 0]

Indeed it`s definetly not out of the question but bare in mind that the civillian demonstrators distinctly witnessed how they came under sniper fire from the Iraqi police and the victims are not Mahdi militiamen but Sistani suporters so they don`t have any extra reason to blame it on the government.And judging how untrained,undisciplinate the Iraqi forces are I would be surprised if it was untrue.

[walker 0]

Sadly all

A Marine's father is in serious condition after setting himself and a Marine vehicle on fire, having just learned that his 20-year-old son was killed in Najaf.

http://www.cbsnews.com/section....ational

This stupid damn war.

Walker

[Balschoiw 0]

The Sistani deal showed that this man can bypass the power lines in Iraq, mobilize a hell lot of people only with his call and can send the US troops out of Nadjaf without talking to them.

He represents the Shia majority in Iraq and the things he started in Nadjaf indicate that he will be the one to push the Shias into the political premier league in Iraq.

Neither the US nor the improvised government of Iraq have such influence on people in Iraq like Sistani obviously has.

Good or bad ? I don´t know but time will tell.

Rebel cleric urges fighters to lay down arms

Quote[/b] ]Radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ordered his fighters to lay down their arms and leave the area as thousands of Iraqis thronged the revered Imam Ali shrine Friday after he and the Iraqi government agreed to a peace proposal by Iraq's top Shiite cleric to end three weeks of fighting in Najaf.

Al-Sadr issued the order in a statement to his Mahdi Army militia from his office in Najaf that also was broadcast through loudspeakers at the shrine, which militants have used as a stronghold and refuge throughout their standoff with a combined U.S.-Iraqi force.

"To all my brothers in Mahdi Army ... you should leave Kufa and Najaf without your weapons, along with the peaceful masses," his statement said.

Dozens of militants complied with the order, piling Kalashnikov rifles in front of al-Sadr's office. Thousands of al-Sadr's militiamen were still believed to be armed in the city, however.

Al-Sadr accepted the peace proposal in a face-to-face meeting Thursday night with the 75-year-old Grand Ayatollah Ali Husseini al-Sistani. Hours afterward, Iraq's interim government also agreed to the deal.

Early Friday, thousands of people marched through the streets and thronged the Imam Ali shrine, one of Shia Islam's holiest. The militiamen had pulled their arms out of it last week but remained holed up there.

Police frisked those entering the shrine for weapons, while revelers held hands together in the air and chanted "Thanks be to God!" Many kissed shrine doors as they entered.

U.S. soldiers looked on as people passed by in streets leading to the shrine compound. Army 1st Lt. Chris Kent said the agreement "appears to be a final resolution. That's what it looks like right now."

Police briefly exchanged fire with militants in one part of town, however, and some U.S. troops were still receiving occasional sniper-fire. Nevertheless, the fierce clashes of previous days had ended and most parts of the city were calm.

Al-Sistani's highly publicized, 11th-hour peace mission would almost certainly boost his already high prestige in Iraq and cloak him in a statesman's mantle, showing that only he had the ability to force an accord between two sides that loathe each other.

The influential cleric returned to Iraq after heart treatment in London to intervene for the first time in the bloody conflict, drawing thousands of followers who marched on Najaf and massed on its outskirts.

In the 24 hours before al-Sistani entered the holy city, more than 90 Iraqis were killed in fighting — including 27 killed when mortars barraged a mosque in neighboring Kufa, where thousands had gathered to march into Najaf in support of al-Sistani's mission.

Meanwhile, an Arab television station said Friday that it received a video showing the killing of kidnapped Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni, whom militants had threatened to execute if Italy did not withdraw troops from Iraq. Al-Jazeera said the video was too graphic to broadcast but appeared to show Baldoni being slain.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi, a staunch supporter of the U.S.-led war to topple Saddam Hussein's regime, condemned the reported slaying and repeated his statement of Tuesday that Italy's 3,000 soldiers would not abandon the U.S.-led coalition and Iraq's government.

Fighting eased in Najaf after al-Sistani arrived, and the U.S. military and the Iraqi government called a 24-hour ceasefire.

The acceptance by the young, firebrand preacher al-Sadr — whose militia has been battling U.S. and Iraqi forces since Aug. 5 — didn't necessarily mean an end to the crisis. He has agreed to peace proposals before, and they have quickly fallen apart.

But State Minister Qassim Dawoud, announcing the administration's acceptance, was optimistic. "Brothers, we have entered the door to peace," he said. He added that the government would not try to arrest al-Sadr, who is sought in the slaying of a rival cleric last year.

The five-point plan calls for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, for all foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf, for police to be in charge of security, for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting, and for a census to be taken to prepare for elections expected in the country by January.

There was no immediate word if the U.S. military would accept the provisions on the agreement calling on its forces to leave Najaf. In Washington, a senior Bush administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said only: "We've seen the developments. We're watching them very closely."

Dawoud said U.S. and coalition forces would pull out of Najaf as soon as interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi ordered them to.

Al-Sistani aide Hamed al-Khafaf announced al-Sadr's acceptance and suggested fighters from his Mahdi Army militia would leave the Imam Ali Shrine.

"There will be a mechanism that will preserve the dignity of everyone in getting out of the holy shrine, and you'll see this in the coming hours," al-Khafaf told Al-Jazeera television.

The shrine, in Najaf's Old City, has been the center of fighting, but U.S. troops have tried to avoid damaging it, fearing it would anger Shiites.

After the cease-fire was called, one platoon of U.S. soldiers was holed up in a multistoried office-building, poking weapons out of broken windows and scanning devastated streets for any signs of militants. A handful took advantage of the quiet to sleep — a relative luxury after days of fierce clashes, according to Associated Press photographer Jim MacMillan, who is embedded with the soldiers.

Al-Sistani's immense moral authority brings more hope for the new peace plan than previous ones.

As the most senior of four clerics in Iraq holding the rank of grand ayatollah, al-Sistani is one of the most respected men in the country, esteemed by Iraqis of all religious factions. He is more popular among Iraqi Shiites than al-Sadr, who is in his early 30s and of a far lower clerical rank.

Al-Sadr's fiery anti-U.S. message has drawn many poorer, disillusioned Shiites but he is seen by the Shiite mainstream as impulsive and too radical. Al-Sadr's followers have set up their own religious courts and arrested hundreds of people on charges including selling alcohol and music deemed immoral.

The elder cleric has consistently opposed violence as a way to end the U.S.-led occupation. He has also bucked the authority of the United States in the past, giving him credibility in the eyes of Shiites who consider the current Iraqi government beholden to the United States.

Thousands of Iraqis had flocked to Najaf on Thursday after al-Sistani called for a peace march but were blocked from entering by Iraqi police.

Al-Sistani asked the government to allow the demonstrators to visit the Imam Ali Shrine compound provided they leave by 10 a.m. Friday, al-Khafaf said.

Al-Sistani's 30-vehicle convoy drove 220 miles from the southern city of Basra to Najaf, joined by at least a thousand cars from towns along the way, where supporters on the street cheered the ayatollah.

From Wednesday morning until Thursday morning, 55 people were killed and 376 injured during clashes in Najaf, the Health Ministry said. At least 40 people were killed in Kufa over the same period, including the victims in the mosque.

The military said Thursday that a U.S. soldier in Baghdad was killed by a mortar attack the night before. As of Wednesday, 964 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq in March 2003, according to the U.S. Defense Department.

Now does that mean that resistance in Iraq is halted ? No, of course not. It only means that fighting will be taken to other locations.

[denoir 0]

Neither the US nor the improvised government of Iraq have such influence on people in Iraq like Sistani obviously has.

Good or bad ? I don´t know but time will tell.

Yupp.

Najaf shows government's weakness [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]Where does the peace agreement in Najaf leave the Iraqi government, the Iraqi Shia and the country's uncertain progress towards stability and democracy?

For the Iraqi prime minister, Iyad Allawi, there is relief but little celebration over the outcome of the standoff in Najaf. The agreement, after all, was not his doing, but came after the swift and unexpected intervention of the country's most revered religious leader, Ayatollah Ali Sistani.

Indeed the resolution of the crisis exposes the limitations of what the Allawi government can do.

Sadr's influence

Both the Americans and Mr Allawi had wanted to avoid the kind of unsatisfactory compromise which ended an earlier uprising by Moqtada Sadr's supporters in the spring.

So in this crisis, Mr Allawi and his top ministers talked tough, threatening a military assault to remove Sadr's forces from Najaf's holy shrine. But when the assault never came, their credibility was dented.

Now, once again, Moqtada Sadr's prestige has risen. Once again, he has walked free. Once again, he has refused to disband his militia. The Sadr movement may have the support of only a minority of the Iraqi Shia, but this crisis has shown it is a force to be reckoned with.

So the Najaf agreement represents a truce, rather than a solution. It gives the government a breathing space, but little more.

Unfinished business

On the security front, Mr Allawi and the US-led multinational forces (as they are now officially described) still face a familiar mix of challenges. Sunni violence, centred on Falluja and other towns in the so-called Sunni triangle north and west of Baghdad, continues

So do the suicide bombings, the mortar and rocket attacks, and the drive-by shootings, temporarily eclipsed by the three-week drama in Najaf.

The common feature of the anger driving different Iraqi groups, whether Sunni or Shia, is resentment at the US military presence in Iraq - and a feeling that the Allawi government is a puppet of America. Most violence appears to be home-grown. But Islamist fighters from outside the country still seem to be active.

Responsibility for the recent, unsuccessful, assassination attempts against two government ministers was claimed by the militant Islamist group of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

The Jordanian-born Zarqawi is a somewhat shadowy figure, considered an ally of al-Qaeda. Many Iraqi Sunnis and Kurds have shared the indignation of the Shia over American actions in Najaf.

Political future

Night after night their television screens have shown death and destruction in the holy city.

Among the non-Shia, Ayatollah Sistani's intervention may, however, trigger mixed feelings. Even if they share the general relief that the Najaf crisis is over - at least for now - Sunnis and Kurds may not welcome the new role being played by the country's most illustrious Shia cleric.

To some, his intervention suggests that the new Iraq will be less secular than the old. It also underlines that the days when the Shia were the underdogs, and the country was run by a Sunni elite, are well and truly over.

As the authorities prepare for parliamentary elections due in January, plans for a new census are under way.

The Shia are confident this will show they represent at least 60% of the population. Ayatollah Sistani insists the clergy should guide but not rule. Not everyone is reassured.

I'm guessing this won't be the last we'll be hearing of al Sadr. And as history has shown over and over again, grabbing power or successfully executing a revolution does not require majority support. Right now al-Sadr may be little more than a loud trouble-maker, but then again, it might be just enough. He does have a strong support amongst young and poor Shias - the ideal demography for action. Sure, the Shia middle-class may not like him, but it is unlikely that they would actually take action and do something. The young people are idealists and coupled with the desperation of poverty, they make a serious base of power.

[bn880 5]

Hey, did this thread miss that Iraqi oil production was cut by 1/3 after approximately 20 attacks on pipelines that were more less simultaneous?

What's up joe? Am I not following the thread well enough or are some people getting soft here?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yupp.

Najaf shows government's weakness [bBC]

Where do I have to sign up for a military analyst job ?    

...hmm...maybe...oneday

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Yupp.

Najaf shows government's weakness [bBC]

Where do I have to sign up for a military analyst job ?

...hmm...maybe...oneday

You can't, it's on a contacts/family basis that they hire.

(and then you wonder why some problems exist)

[quicksand 0]

There is a new phenomenon in Fallujah.

Quote[/b] ]August 12, 2004

Release Number: 04-08-13C

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

MARINES KILLED IN HELICOPTER CRASH

CAMP FALLUJAH, Iraq - Two Marines were killed when a CH-53 helicopter crashed in the Al Anbar Province about 10:15 p.m. Wednesday while flying in support of security and stabilization operations.

Three people were injured. They were evacuated to a military medical facility and are being treated for injuries.

Multi-National Force - Iraq personnel have secured the crash site, and recovery operations are ongoing.

No enemy fire was observed in the vicinity of the aircraft.

The cause of the mishap is currently under investigation.

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJAH, Iraq - One Marine assigned to I Marine Expeditionary Force was killed in a vehicle accident when the humvee he was in hit an M1A1 tank, causing the vehicle to flip Saturday in the Al Anbar Province.

The vehicle accident is under investigation.

The name of the deceased is being withheld pending next of kin notification.

Quote[/b] ]

LSA ANACONDA, BALAD, Iraq ? One 13th Corps Support Command Soldier is dead as the result of a vehicle accident near Fallujah at approximately 2 a.m. August 24.

The Soldier?s military vehicle rolled over causing fatal injuries and he was pronounced dead at the scene. The name of the Soldier is being withheld pending next-of-kin notification.

The cause of the accident is under investigation.

Quote[/b] ]VEHICLE ACCIDENT KILLS ONE, INJURES ANOTHER

BALAD, Iraq ? One soldier is dead, and another injured after the truck the two were driving in rolled off an embankment about 4:45 a.m. Aug. 27 near Fallujah.

The injured soldier was evacuated to the 31st Combat Support Hospital in Baghdad and is scheduled to be evacuated to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany.

The names of the soldiers are being withheld pending next-of-kin notification, and the cause of the accident is under investigation.

Here are just a few examples that proove not only is Fallujah the most violent city,scene of the most fierce anti-US resistance in Iraq but it`s also something of a new Bermuda Triangle where choppers seem to crash out of the blue and the roads turn suddenly too small for humvees to avoid rolling over or crashing into tanks.

Now if you are still following me,after careful study I`ve reached a conclusion that explains this erie phenomenon that occours only in the Al-Anbar province and not in Southern or Northern Iraq but only here in the most violent place in the country,bare with me...Resistance fighters have managed somehow to develop a weapon that can actually force choppers to crash down and humvees to roll over.

Yeah I know,leaning a tad towards the conspirationist side,but I simply can not deny this iching feeling that the Iraqis are indeed wielding such an awsome weapon and it`s not the fault of over excited US soldiers driving humvees that share the same hobby of repeteadly questioning the tank supremacy and their car acrobatic limits

Note:As further exemplification of my theory here is a rudimentary schetch of how I think such a weapon could look like.

[bn880 5]

Yeah no shit... Modern warfare is not just fought on the battlefield.

Ever notice the numerous incidents in Afghanistan as well?

[denoir 0]

Now if you are still following me,after careful study I`ve reached a conclusion that explains this erie phenomenon that occours only in the Al-Anbar province and not in  Southern or Northern Iraq but only here in the most violent place in the country,bare with me...Resistance fighters have managed somehow to develop a weapon that can actually force choppers to crash down and humvees to roll over.

Yeah I know,leaning a tad towards the conspirationist side,but I simply can not deny this iching feeling that the Iraqis are indeed wielding such an awsome weapon and it`s not the fault of over excited US soldiers driving humvees that share the same hobby of repeteadly questioning the tank supremacy and their car acrobatic limits

Hehe, that's a nice try, but you have a big hole in your logic. And that's the assumption that in the non-problematic provinces that there are equally many vehicles driving around and that they are driving the same way.

In reality there are far more US troops in the conflict areas than in the peaceful provinces. Hence there will be far more accidents in the conflict areas even if the probability of an accident is equal in both places.

Also when you risk getting shot at, blown up or something else nasty, you tend to drive a bit more aggressively. Which in turn increases the probability of accident.

[ran 0]

you tend to drive a bit more aggressively.

THIS is what I call an euphemism !

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also when you risk getting shot at, blown up or something else nasty, you tend to drive a bit more aggressively. Which in turn increases the probability of accident.

Good point denoir,I was counting on you to help me develop my satiric anecdote that aimed at prooving a premeditated gap in CentCom releases in a more serious discussion.

First of all,clearly such incidents should be deemed as hostile if they started from a roadside bomb,RPG attack or small fire arms and the Marine should be categorised as killed in action and not in a non-hostile incident,CentCom holding the ultimate obligation to inform us if there was enemy fire in the vecinity that could have led to the serviceman deaths.

Otherewhise there we are running a considerable risk of having the average American while reading a US Marine was killed in a non-hostile incident rolling over his transportation to either think he was a reckless driver or drunk.

It`s also unavoidable to leap back some time ago and remember the scandal about the release that mentioned 2 Stryker brigade serviceman that drowned in the river and an interview afterwards revealing that it was first hit by a rocket proppelled grenade that forced it into the river.Would it be an absurd thought to imagine next as non-hostile US deaths incidents of roofs collapsing on their head and the mortar barrage that led to it as unmentioned side-info?

Further more for a better example we can thankfully have a glimpse at British or Polish detailed death releases and can compare them to CentCom "2 Marines killed while conducting security and stability operations"

One could even think that this attitude is nothing more as a shamless atempt to treat US serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush crusade as cattles,out of fear of loosing suport

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]One could even think that this attitude is nothing more as a shamless atempt to treat US serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush crusade as cattles,out of fear of loosing suport

Hate to burst your bubble but a lot of accidents do happen in the US military. Every year, hundreds of people in the military (sometimes + thousand) die in non-hostile (not in combat) accidents(http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/Death_Rates.pdf  ). If you cared to looked at a video I posted (the first one), it has mighty example of reckless driving in Iraq. Accidents do get investigated and you just got to look for the report. Nice try, quckie.

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/28/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]

Two French journalists kidnapped in Iraq

Al-Sadr's militia keeps fighting in Baghdad

Saturday, August 28, 2004 Posted: 9:48 PM EDT (0148 GMT)

(CNN) -- The Arabic-language TV network Al-Jazeera broadcast videotape Saturday showing two French journalists who apparently have been taken hostage in Iraq by a group calling itself the Islamic Army in Iraq.

The journalists, Christian Chesnot with Radio France International and Georges Malbrunot with the newspaper Le Figaro, were reported missing the morning of August 21. It was not know where they were being held.

According to Al-Jazeera, the kidnappers are demanding that the French government overturn a recently passed law that bans Muslim students from wearing headscarves in French public schools.

The ban was passed by the French parliament in the spring and is expected to go into effect in September. French lawmakers judged wearing religious attire to public school to be a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state.

France, a county of 60 million, has a Muslim population of 5 million.

The Islamic Army in Iraq claimed to have kidnapped Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni and killed him this week after Italy refused to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Italy is still trying to retrieve Baldoni's body.

Baldoni's death was confirmed by Italy's ambassador to Qatar, who went to the headquarters of Al-Jazeera and viewed a digital photo of the journalist. (Full story)

The group has given France 48 hours to respond to its demands.

The Islamic Army in Iraq claimed that it killed two Pakistanis in July and that it kidnapped an Iranian diplomat in early August.

That really sucks.

[bn880 5]

Not only sucks, but it's a silly request. I mean, yeah great idea to take on everyone and everything at once... threaten death over clothing, for people who actually just immigrated...

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Hate to burst your bubble but a lot of accidents do happen in the US mili

tary.

Not at all Bily,sure for some time your posts were a tad irking since I actually took them seriously and yeah reading posts that completly ignore/missunderstand your message and nitpick about a word will tend to give you something of a headacke but

now I just read them for purely enterteinment value.

So let's take it step by step just for you( seems to be geting a trend doesn't it?),let's ask ourselves what was I refering too when I wrote:

"One coud think this attitude is nothing more then a shamless atempt to treat US serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush crusade as cattles,out of fear of loosing suport''

would reading the paragraph above it help?-well let's see...

Further more for a better example we can thankfully have a glimpse at British or Polish detailed death releases and can compare them to CentCom "2 Marines killed while conducting security and stability operations"

Quote[/b] ]Accidents do get investigated and you just got to look for the report.

On the contrary Billy,I've searched the internet up and down trying to find more information about the 4 Marines that died while conducting "security and stability operations",or the three before,heck even about the Marine that crashed into an M1A1 tank.As a curious and worried man as I am sure many more american citizens,wondering were this serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush`s war,cut to pieces by a mortar shell,did they die of wounds after an excrusiating day of suffering because of a vital artery severed by AK47 gunfire and the most dazzling of all were were the Marines actually killed near Ramadi,Fallujah or heck even in Jordan-the Al-Anbar region streches that far,I think it`s everyones right to have acces to more information,don`t you?

Further more as I wrote in the post above and you so graciously ignored,do you agree or not that it should be CentCom ultimate duty to inform us if there was any hostile gunfire in the near vecnity of an accident or not?-I have yet to see any atempt to do so.

Do you agree or not that the death releases from Al-Anbar province ar as pathetic as they are brief and dull compared to the detailled ones provided by the Polish and the British counterparts?

[Apollo 0]

About the incident with the French journalists. (i actually posted something about it in the war against terrorism thread ,euh sorry)

Anyway ,i see it as probable that this law could be retracted. (as it was highly controversial anyway)

But indeed the logic of these kidnappers bothers me ,what if they begin to take nationals as hostage with the demand to lift non secularization of the state and impose muslim law??Given the logic of these guys such demands don't look to far fetched. (well not for them)

[ran 0]

Anyway ,i see it as probable that this law could be retracted. (as it was highly controversial anyway)

No

Fucking

Way

[Apollo 0]

Yeah well ,i was in favor of the law to actually ,since it mainly was for the shool's and it included bans on christian and jewish symbols to.

But then ask yourself ,if these guys are threathening to decapitate these two journalists ,wouldn't you want youre goverment to give in to protect it's nationals even if it's giving in to extortion?

Another thing is that the ban can be lifted from the national level but put trough at the local level if needed to ,be it at the provincial or city level ,or even that the shool's could be asked to put it in their own rulesset.

[ran 0]

Yeah well ,i was in favor of the law to actually ,since it mainly was for the shool's and it included bans on christian and jewish symbols to.

But then ask yourself ,if these guys are threathening to decapitate these two journalists ,wouldn't you want youre goverment to give in to protect it's nationals even if it's giving in to extortion?

Another thing is that the ban can be lifted from the national level but put trough at the local level if needed to ,be it at the provincial or city level ,or even that the shool's could be asked to put it in their own rulesset.

No way.

These two men were aware of the risks they took, if they make it out alive good, if not, too bad.

We won't give in to fulfill the demands of these deluded bastards.

If they have anything against us, they better come on our soil to settle the different and end up like Kahled Kelkal.

Giving in would mean negating some of the principes on which our nation and constitution have been built.

Now to me, it just looks like a bunch of unprofessionnal assholes who captured neutral reporters and are now looking for some kind of use for them.

It's no different as french reporters being assassinated in DRC.

They went in this shithole knowing the risks. I am grateful for that, but the blackmail of a bunch of wanna-be extremists won't make us change our laws.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So let's take it step by step just for you( seems to be geting a trend doesn't it?),let's ask ourselves what was I refering too when I wrote:

"One coud think this attitude is nothing more then a shamless atempt to treat US serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush crusade as cattles,out of fear of loosing suport''

would reading the paragraph above it help?-well let's see...

Further more for a better example we can thankfully have a glimpse at British or Polish detailed death releases and can compare them to CentCom "2 Marines killed while conducting security and stability operations"

I read all your paragraphs. You want to know if people were killed in accident, and hostile fire was near by, to be listed has killed in action. You want detail reports. However, I responded saying that hundreds (sometimes more than thousand) die in the military each year caused accidents in non-hostile areas and is not reported on the news. So, I hope you thought this, since Iraq has a insurgency thing going on, you have to assume that car accidents will go up because of aggressive driving and things of that sort. People are going to be tense while driving down a road in Iraq. Lastly, do really believe that comment you posted in your previous post?

Quote[/b] ]On the contrary Billy,I've searched the internet up and down trying to find more information about the 4 Marines that died while conducting "security and stability operations",or the three before,heck even about the Marine that crashed into an M1A1 tank.As a curious and worried man as I am sure many more american citizens,wondering were this serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush`s war,cut to pieces by a mortar shell,did they die of wounds after an excrusiating day of suffering because of a vital artery severed by AK47 gunfire and the most dazzling of all were were the Marines actually killed near Ramadi,Fallujah or heck even in Jordan-the Al-Anbar region streches that far,I think it`s everyones right to have acces to more information,don`t you?

Let me help you: http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx . Not your detailed report but tells you how the person died and place (and etc.). Jordan is not Cambodia..

Quote[/b] ]Do you agree or not that the death releases from Al-Anbar province ar as pathetic as they are brief and dull compared to the detailled ones provided by the Polish and the British counterparts?

Only the families should have the detail reports if requested.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]I read all your paragraphs. You want to know if people were killed in accident, and hostile fire was near by, to be listed has killed in action. You want detail reports. However, I responded saying that hundreds (sometimes more than thousand) die in the military each year caused accidents in non-hostile areas and is not reported on the news. So, I hope you thought this

My request is simple.Was enemy fire observed in the near vecinity,a simple yes or no would cut it for me as it would make a vital diference.

Quote[/b] ]since Iraq has a insurgency thing going on, you have to assume that car accidents will go up because of aggressive driving and things of that sort. People are going to be tense while driving down a road in Iraq

Now we're geting somewhere,hence the need to separate those were driving recklessly from the ones who were almost hit by an IED,rocke propelled grenade that forced them to loose control of the vehicle.

Quote[/b] ] Lastly, do really believe that comment you posted in your previous post?

This is intresting,you claim you read every paragraph yet you ask me a question I've already answered in a post before,I kinda lost cout how many times I've quoted myself but here it is once again:

''help me develop my satiric anecdote .... into a more serious discussion

Quote[/b] ]Let me help you: http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx . Not your detailed report but tells you how the person died and place

''I've searched the internet up and down trying to find more information about the 4 Marines that died while conducting "security and stability operations",or the three before,heck even about the Marine that crashed into an M1A1 tank.As a curious and worried man as I am sure many more american citizens,wondering were this serviceman who payed ultimate sacrifice in Bush`s war,cut to pieces by a mortar shell,did they die of wounds after an excrusiating day of suffering because of a vital artery severed by AK47 gunfire and the most dazzling of all were were the Marines actually killed near Ramadi,Fallujah or heck even in Jordan-the Al-Anbar region streches that far,I think it`s everyones right to have acces to more information,don`t you?''

I am faced with two options here,you either have a real problem following my posts or my english is too rotten and is missleading you.One of this have to be true as they only can explain why did you just directed me to a link exactly as enlighting as CentCom releases which I just explained how lacking they are.

Quote[/b] ]Jordan is not Cambodia..

You are completly missing the point,Jordan is not Cambodgia but Al-Anbar streches all the way to it and a death release citing Marines were killed in the region with no city as a groundmark says viertually nothing as to where the hotspot is coming from in a region sparring thousands of miles.

Quote[/b] ]Only the families should have the detail reports if requested.

Tehehe Billy but CentCom seems to be haveve been clearly contradicting this more recent policy.

Quote[/b] ]CAMP FULLUJAH, Iraq - One U.S. Soldier and one U.S. Marine were killed and several other U.S. forces and one civilian contractor were wounded when attackers detonated an improvised explosive device, at about 4:50 p.m. May 23 northwest of Fallujah.

Reports indicate the device was placed in a parked vehicle and detonated as two U.S. convoys passed on the highway.

The wounded were evacuated by air to the 31st Combat Support Hospital.

The names of the two service members killed are being withheld pending notification of next-of-kin.

Quote[/b] ]FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

TASK FORCE “ALL AMERICAN†SOLDIERS KILLED BY IED NEAR FALLUJAH

FALLUJAH, Iraq - Two Task Force “All American†soldiers were killed this morning when the convoy they were in was attacked with an improvised explosive device north of Fallujah.

Quote[/b] ]TASK FORCE “ALL AMERICAN†CONVOY AMBUSHED

This afternoon, a Task Force “All-American†convoy from 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment (3rd ACR) was ambushed with RPGs and small arms fire on Highway 12 east of Husaybah.

Quick Reaction Forces (QRF) responded to the engagement with MEDEVAC helicopters. Elements from the 3rd ACR responded to the scene and a ground QRF moved from Haditha to the engagement to secure the area. Explosive Ordinance Disposal assets have moved to the scene and are clearing the area.

Confirmed reports are that two U.S. soldiers were killed and one wounded. The wounded soldier was subsequently MEDEVACED to a nearby field hospital.

So how was it Billy?What triggered the sudden change of policy just about when the 1.000 death mark started approaching-hey wait a minute  

°And to avoid stirring up further confusion I am not asking for releases that would relate how the bullet pierced through the Marine's leg followed by a second salvo of gunfire that hit his stomach and neck and in the afterwards silence after 15 minutes of horrifying scremas finally giving his last breath and laying motionless on the ground with his eyes open gazing into the hot sun,all though I have no doubt this is the way many found their end this should hopefully be left to the media,just mandatory details:IED,Mortar shell,small fire arms etc. something to proove they were human beings and not machines always on to conducting security and stability operations.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So how was it Billy?What triggered the sudden change of policy just about when the 1.000 death mark started approaching-hey wait a minute

I do not understand the big deal 1,000 death mark because more than 13,207 servicemen/women died during accidents in the 80s. It sucks but I do not know how to explain it...

Quote[/b] ]I am faced with two options here,you either have a real problem following my posts or my english is too rotten and is missleading you.One of this have to be true as they only can explain why did you just directed me to a link exactly as enlighting as CentCom releases which I just explained how lacking they are.

I understand what you mean but I posted to link to show that they (those 4 marines) were killed by hostile fire. So, "security and stability operations" basically means out on patrol. That site shows if the person was killed by an IED; RPG attack; mortar attack; and etc.

Quote[/b] ]You are completly missing the point,Jordan is not Cambodgia but Al-Anbar streches all the way to it and a death release citing Marines were killed in the region with no city as a groundmark says viertually nothing as to where the hotspot is coming from in a region sparring thousands of miles.

Sorry for my attempt for sacrasm. I think centcom does not want to tell the general public were in some parts of Al Anbar Province they operate. They have no problems telling the press if they were killed in major areas (i.e. Baghdad; Najaf; and etc.).