Korea... next?

[Tovarish 0]

the real reason we went to war was because we needed to cause dramatic political and social change and reform in the Middle East region.  We went in to break the hold of islamic culture on the Arab states there and eliminate the stranglehold that the muslem religion has on the people there.

Beautiful

[IceFire 0]

What kind of reasoning could you put up to say I'm wrong?

Whatever it is, it's obviousy wrong since the war prevented the possibility of terrorists getting their hands on dangerous weapons of mass destruction.

If you really think the war in Iraq is about terrorists, then there is nothing that can really be said to you...

Also consider all the human rights abuses TBA gave for a reasoning to go to Iraq, NK has even worse. Plus throw in the healthy dose of  ACTUAL proven WMD production in NK and there ain't jack in Iraq...

Well I think you get the picture...

(and if you don't then you are deluded)

Hahaha

You need to learn to seperate what the Govt has to "officially" say and the REAL reasons to go to war.

Sure, on TV what any idiot can watch, they will go on about human rights abuses, and WMD.  They have to say all that stuff to get the "official political" reason to go to war.

Read the papers for once where the govt will be more candid.

Any intelligent person, even the administration will tell you the real reason we went to war was because we needed to cause dramatic political and social change and reform in the Middle East region.  We went in to break the hold of islamic culture on the Arab states there and eliminate the stranglehold that the muslem religion has on the people there.

This is why we are trying to build western style democracy there and eliminate the fundementalist culture that is so dominant over there.

Ah...

So you support the war to support the rascist ethnocentric Neo-Hitleresque policies of the TBA, which must make you a closet (or outright) rascist and/or Neo-Nazi.

Not only that, you support TBA lying to the entire nation about the reasons for war, an illegal and impeachable act.

Quote[/b] ]Ofcourse you must get all your information from what they say on the TV(where they have to give out straight official reasonings to everything)

And you must have the reading comprehension of a 6 year-old, as I stated that the reasons they gave were false.

EDIT: BTW belongs in the Iraq thread...not Korea

No, I read you right.

You stated that the reason provided was false.  It was NOT false.

It was just not the MAIN reason.  It was an official reason.

Now that we have overthrown the Iraqi govt, we have effectively stopped any production or planning or distribution of any WMDs, whether found or not.

And I don't know where you got any rascist ideas from.

Nothing I said was rascist.  Maybe it is you who is the rascist.

Cultural and religious dominance has nothing to do with race.

[denoir 0]

Any intelligent person, even the administration will tell you the real reason we went to war was because we needed to cause dramatic political and social change and reform in the Middle East region.  We went in to break the hold of islamic culture on the Arab states there and eliminate the stranglehold that the muslem religion has on the people there.

This is why we are trying to build western style democracy there and eliminate the fundementalist culture that is so dominant over there.

Well, that is a nice theory, but it has one very fatal flaw. Of the Arab countries, Iraq was the least muslim one. Iraq was primarily a secular dictatorship. Saddam's creed was a form of stalinism. The Baath party have a combined ideology of pan-arab nationalism and communism. Shia muslims were persecuted in Iraq as were many Sunni clerics.

Bottom line, if the idea was to get rid of muslim theocracies, then Saudi Arabia or Iran would have been invaded, not Iraq.

[bn880 5]

the real reason we went to war was because we needed to cause dramatic political and social change and reform in the Middle East region. We went in to break the hold of islamic culture on the Arab states there and eliminate the stranglehold that the muslem religion has on the people there.

Beautiful

Now why didn't Bush come out and say that right away?

[IceFire 0]

Any intelligent person, even the administration will tell you the real reason we went to war was because we needed to cause dramatic political and social change and reform in the Middle East region.  We went in to break the hold of islamic culture on the Arab states there and eliminate the stranglehold that the muslem religion has on the people there.

This is why we are trying to build western style democracy there and eliminate the fundementalist culture that is so dominant over there.

Well, that is a nice theory, but it has one very fatal flaw. Of the Arab countries, Iraq was the least muslim one. Iraq was primarily a secular dictatorship. Saddam's creed was a form of stalinism. The Baath party have a combined ideology of pan-arab nationalism and communism. Shia muslims were persecuted in Iraq as were many Sunni clerics.

Bottom line, if the idea was to get rid of muslim theocracies, then Saudi Arabia or Iran would have been invaded, not Iraq.

Maybe so, but it Iraq is secular and nationalistic enough to be the best suited for a nonislamic democratic western style government.

It would have then made a perfect base to influence the other middle eastern states.

[IceFire 0]

the real reason we went to war was because we needed to cause dramatic political and social change and reform in the Middle East region.  We went in to break the hold of islamic culture on the Arab states there and eliminate the stranglehold that the muslem religion has on the people there.

Beautiful                

Now why didn't Bush come out and say that right away?    

Because the liberal idiots would never go to war because of their stupid politically correct ideas would be against a war about the defundementalism and deislamification of the middle east.

They are not willing to do what it takes in that manner to fight islamic terrorism and the islamic stranglehold in that part of the world.

[denoir 0]

Maybe so, but it Iraq is secular and nationalistic enough to be the best suited for a nonislamic democratic western style government.

It would have then made a perfect base to influence the other middle eastern states.

Can be, but as it turned out it became quite the opposite. Islam has never been stronger than now in Iraq. Clerics are getting real political power. People are more religious and the former pan-arab ideals have been replaced by muslim ideals.

So if the plan was to get the muslims, they really failed badly.

[denoir 0]

They are not willing to do what it takes in that manner to fight islamic terrorism and the islamic stranglehold in that part of the world.

I think you will find that quite many people are not too fond about religious persecutions. I'm for instance not to crazy about the christian fundamentalists that have a stranglehold of a large part of the US population, but I would not support an invasion that would force my beliefs (or lack of) onto others.

I do however think fairly many closet-racists see it exactly the same way you do IceFire. They see it as a war of cultures and religions, where islam is the enemy.

[IceFire 0]

ll;k

[Tovarish 0]

And I don't know where you got any rascist ideas from.

Nothing I said was rascist.  Maybe it is you who is the rascist.

Cultural and religious dominance has nothing to do with race.

My man, comments such as you have made here where you advocate the forceful destruction of a culture and religious beliefs, and earlier statements such as the one that caused you to get your "no háblo espańol" member tag (The thread were you so indignantly argued that no one should be allowed to speak any language in the USA except for english), clearly show you as being a xenophobe. religion, and definitely culture, have a hell of a lot to do with race.

[IceFire 0]

You see religion and culture as part of race?  Maybe that makes you a rascist.  

Religion and culture are a result of choices and upbringing.  

Race is an entirely different thing.  I know a few people of different cultural or racial origins who have nothing to do with those religious or cultural origins.  

They are just average Americans who speak plain english and only english. True blue nationastic Americans. I or they don't even think about where their grandparents or whoever is from.

Ofcourse that is a rarity in big cities where politically correct BS is everywhere.

[Tovarish 0]

You see religion and culture as part of race?  Maybe that makes you a rascist.  

Religion and culture are a result of choices and upbringing.  

Race is an entirely different thing.  I know a few people of different cultural or racial origins who have nothing to do with those religious or cultural origins.  

Forcing people of a specific race to give up their culture or religion certainly is racist.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">They are just average Americans who speak plain english and only english. True nationastic Americans. I or they don't even think about where their grandparents or whoever is from.

Ofcourse that is a rarity in big cities where politically correct BS is everywhere.

So anyone who speaks a second language is then not a "true" American? Are these people polluting your immagined precious and pure "American" bloodline?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

So Icefire, would you support a war to rid america of the fundamentalist government/ peoples that infest it?

[Tovarish 0]

Nah, see, in his mind, Thats America

[IceFire 0]

You see religion and culture as part of race?  Maybe that makes you a rascist.  

Religion and culture are a result of choices and upbringing.  

Race is an entirely different thing.  I know a few people of different cultural or racial origins who have nothing to do with those religious or cultural origins.  

Forcing people of a specific race to give up their culture or religion certainly is racist.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">They are just average Americans who speak plain english and only english. True nationastic Americans. I or they don't even think about where their grandparents or whoever is from.

Ofcourse that is a rarity in big cities where politically correct BS is everywhere.

So anyone who speaks a second language is then not a "true" American? Are these people polluting your immagined precious and pure "American" bloodline?

Tovarish, hating people of a specific race simply because of their race is rascism.

Eliminating a toxic aspect of a peoples culture is not. Especially when those cultural and religious aspects are turning poor middle easterners into raging violent fanatics.

Even a good deal of people in the ME are white.  So do NOT accuse this of being some rascist agenda.  That is your own twisted logic bent out of PC crap or whatever that makes you believe that.

[IceFire 0]

As much as I'd love to continue this, I have things to do today.

I will continue this later tonight.

[Tovarish 0]

I see. So by your logic, you would have supported the Spanish Inquisition? after all, the well meaning Christian church was just trying to help the Jews get rid of the toxic aspects of their religion and culture that would prevent them from going to Heaven.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I will continue this later tonight.

no you won't. keep driving threads OT, and you will be ousted from here.

[denoir 0]

I think IceFire has a point. Religion, traditions and culture are not traits you are born with. There are elements that you from some perspective can call 'toxic' or destructive or undesirable. The problem is in the "perspective" part. Just like Christian fundamentalists like IceFire can say that Islam is 'toxic', Islamic fundamentalists can say that Christianity is 'toxic'. A hardcore atheist would say that both are undesirable and that religion should be forbidden altogether.

The mature and reasonable approach (incidentally the guiding principle in democracies) is that there is no absolute perspective and that there are different points of views that have equal values and should be respected as such.

And this connects to the North Korea situation as well. Starting a war because the other side has a different ideology is not the way to go. Differences in opinion will always exist. If we go to war over that, we'll never have peace. So given that NK is a communist dictatorship is far from a reason to go to war. That they arm themselves with WMD should raise an eyebrow and we should look into it, but per se it is not enough to justify an attack.

[Akira 0]

I think IceFire has a point. Religion, traditions and culture are not traits you are born with. -

The only problem with that is that racism CAN be defined as cultural and or religious persecution, especially calling for the "de-islamization" of the entire Middle East.

Quote[/b] ]race1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rs)

n.

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

4. Humans considered as a group.

5. Biology.

1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.

2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

Quote[/b] ]rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)

n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So indeed. Everything he has said is "racist," and his attempt to call everyone racist who calls him the same is a mere diversion from the facts.

He called for the de-islamization of the entire Middle East, and indeed, Muslims can be considered a human group that share a common history (as any religion can), especially considering the vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East are Arab, Sunni, Kurdish, etc etc.

EDIT: Can we make a stickie just for Icefire's ideological explanations....that would be WAY too much fun!

[russin 0]

lookin at the states again to clean up the mess that no one else could do.most other Contrys turn a blind shoulder Human rights we know uphold it and doesn't.. and shall be delt with in due time one way or another hehe

but North American seemed to get painted as the bad ones where the allies wrong to kick hitlers sorry ass each demon will recive there dish of hot supper Sadam just happend to be Next (iran or korea) will probally recieve the next spanking....

[bucket man 2]

LOL! I think USA aint spanking no ones ass after Iraq. If they even can leave in the next 5 years.

[IceFire 0]

I think IceFire has a point. Religion, traditions and culture are not traits you are born with. -

The only problem with that is that racism CAN be defined as cultural and or religious persecution, especially calling for the "de-islamization" of the entire Middle East.

Quote[/b] ]race1    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (rs)

n.

  1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

  2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

  3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

  4. Humans considered as a group.

  5. Biology.

        1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.

        2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

  6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

Quote[/b] ]rac·ism    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (rszm)

n.

  1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

  2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So indeed. Everything he has said is "racist," and his attempt to call everyone racist who calls him the same is a mere diversion from the facts.

He called for the de-islamization of the entire Middle East, and indeed, Muslims can be considered a human group that share a common history (as any religion can), especially considering the vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East are Arab, Sunni, Kurdish, etc etc.

EDIT: Can we make a stickie just for Icefire's ideological explanations....that would be WAY too much fun!

Akira, just as Denoir said, cultural traits are manmade, they have nothing to do with a race.

You defined racism as attacking a cultural attribute. This is wrong. I feel bad that little children in the middle east are subjected to the dominant cultural influences that will one day make them violent raging fanatics.

They were not born with this cultural attribute, they learn it in their society.

Not all cultural aspects are good. Surely the society that has developed in the middle east is not good. And now they are legitimate threats to American lives. When that happens, it is time for us to make changes over there to defend our lives.

I am NOT a racist. I simply believe in right and wrong and the country.

[Akira 0]

Akira, just as Denoir said, cultural traits are manmade, they have nothing to do with a race.

You defined racism as attacking a cultural attribute. This is wrong. I feel bad that little children in the middle east are subjected to the dominant cultural influences that will one day make them violent raging fanatics.

They were not born with this cultural attribute, they learn it in their society.

As I stated in my post, racism can be about more than whether they are black or white, and your fanatical hatred of Middle Eastern culture fits that perfectly.

Whether you want to believe it or not, you are racist. For example,

Quote[/b] ]subjected to the dominant cultural influences that will one day make them violent raging fanatics.

your assertion that every Middle Eastern child is going to grow up as "violent raging fanatics"is clear racism. Your belief that American culture is in someway superior to all the cultures in the Middle East, is equally racist.

Quote[/b] ]And now they are legitimate threats to American lives.

Really? What about the Iraqi culture was directly threatening you?

Quote[/b] ]I am NOT a racist. I simply believe in right and wrong and the country.

I'm sure Hitler felt the exact same way.

[denoir 0]

It's quite simple Akira. IceFire is on the other side of the spectrum of Islamic fundamentalists. He's a Christian fundamentalist. The same way as Osama justifies flying planes into buildings to attack the wicked west, IceFire supports bombings to attack the wicked muslims. Not much difference there. It's basic hardcore fundamentalism that asserts that its point of view is the only correct one and that the rest of the world has to adjust to it. And they're willing to kill for that.