International Politics Thread

[kavoven 4]

People, please don't respond to the things he is writing! Honestly, that's not about discussing things but about provoking. He will leave if you just ignore him!

[Second 0]

Of course you have starvation when some powerful countries have made your "economy scream".

No. That can serve only as minor cause. Major cause is political actions taken, once again altering economy and food producing chain with heavy hand has failed.

They had great land in their hands and it seems that it has been doomed to several's decades suffering. Just like Spokeperson's problem is ignoring people outside cities, same has happened in Africa in general. There's lots of Mugabe's "pals" in rule all over Africa and Africa produces 20% less food now than 30 years ago. Go figures.

K@voven: This is relatively fun. Yes, it's waste of time, but then again also fun is some sick&twisted way.

[Spokesperson 0]

I don't support Mugabe, but I think it's evident that the state of the economy isn't his fault.

[Maddmatt 1]

...but I think it's evident that the state of the economy isn't his fault.

LOL so it's the evil westerner's fault again?

He sent his supporters after the farms, which their economy heavily relies on. He basically destroyed the economy himself. The economy wasn't so bad before he started his desperate campaign to hold onto his power. Of course investors are not going to touch Zimbabwe after seeing that and the economy just keeps going down.

Maybe the MDC will prove to be a another crappy corrupt African government (like the ANC), but it's better than a lunatic who will do anything to hold on to power

Do you enjoy these debates? Because you spend a lot of time here arguing against everyone

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course investors are not going to touch Zimbabwe after seeing that and the economy just keeps going down.

More or less yes, but the reason is that investors can't be sure if they can keep their property.

So when Mugabe wanted to democratize the farms, capitalism went in and stopped him. He keeps playing by their rules. That's his biggest mistake.

He should nationalize everything as fast as possible. Take full control of the economy. Only then the inflation problem can be solved. Right now the economy is in the hands of foreign interests that want to see Mugabe gone, and the farms back to the old owners.

[echo1 0]

So when Mugabe wanted to democratize the farms

First Stalin "democraticized" the agricultural system in the USSR, then Mugabe "democraticized" the farms in Zimbabwe... What are you going to tell us next? That Hitler "democraticized" the Jewish Ghettos in Eastern Europe?  

Quote[/b] ]the farms back to the old owners

You mean the ones that knew how to run the farms? You make it sound like a bad thing

Quote[/b] ]He keeps playing by their rules. That's his biggest mistake.

If that's true, he's doing a pretty shit job of it.

[Maddmatt 1]

So when Mugabe wanted to democratize the farms, capitalism went in and stopped him. He keeps playing by their rules. That's his biggest mistake.

Democratize the farms?  

The idiots that he sent to steal the farms have no clue how to run the farms. Hence the farms are made worthless. Skilled people who ran the farms leave to another country (mostly South Africa it seems, there are millions of Zimbabwean refugees and immigrants there).

You call sending crazed supported to threaten, torture and kill people "playing by the rules"? The attempted assassinations of the MDC president?

You sure have a different view of what the 'rules' are.

LOL at "capitalism went in and stopped him", yea the west and capitalism, all the problems in the world are their fault according to you

It's quite funny how you manage to blame just about everything on the west and it's capitalism. The bias is quite evident in you

Quote[/b] ]

He should nationalize everything as fast as possible. Take full control of the economy. Only then the inflation problem can be solved. Right now the economy is in the hands of foreign interests that want to see Mugabe gone, and the farms back to the old owners.

I don't think he even cares about the economy. He wants power and money. If he cared about his people he wouldn't be doing that to them just to hold onto power.

It's all a game to him

[Baff1 0]

He should nationalize everything as fast as possible. Take full control of the economy.

He has done.

He did it over 10 years ago. While it was still highly profitable.

That's when the foreign investment all left. (and Zimbabwean GDP instantly shrunk by 14%).

When Mugabe wanted to "democratise the farms" (i.e. take them from all the evil white people and give them to his political supporters) the forces of capitalism did not "go in and stop him".

He did it. It's done.

The only thing the forces of capitalism have done is send in millions of tons of food aid. More and more each year.

The economy is fucked. The industry has all gone bust and Africa's largest source of food production has stopped producing.

[sparks50 0]

Quote[/b] ]Somalia's pirates seize 33 T-72s, with ammunition and spare parts, sold by Russia, on transport to Kenya

Pirates have seized dozens of ships from the major shipping routes near Somalia's coast in recent months.

Pirate "mother ships" travel far out to sea and launch smaller boats to attack passing vessels, sometimes using rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs).

"The cargo in the ship includes military hardware such as tanks and an assortment of spare parts for use by different branches of the Kenyan military," he said

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7637257.stm

Seems like being a pirate is even more awesome than I remember from kindergarten

Seriously though, smuggled in by port and with trained personnel, that load could easily do a coup somewhere.

[HotShot 0]

The Russians are coming. Further, the ransom seems quite low for 33 tanks (all be it relatively old tanks), other equipment, plus ammo. Why does Kenya need all this heavy equipment anyway?

[Baff1 0]

Because they just had a big civil insurrection and almost lost control of the country.

[echo1 0]

Further, the ransom seems quite low for 33 tanks (all be it relatively old tanks), other equipment, plus ammo. W

Because a bunch of aging, second hand T-72s wouldnt be worth more than the million per pop that theyre asking, even if the shipment does include ammo and spares.

[Commando84 0]

Lol  @ stolen tanks, maybe they can sell them to Al qaida and they can start the GLA army like in C&c generals game where terrorists attack with tanks and stuff  

start a coup in saudi arabia or something, but it wont like never happen maybe in a movie or something

[kavoven 4]

*takes his scoop and diggs the topic out*

A topic I crossed over a few times during the last weeks and months were pirates.

I think everyone noticed the reports in the news of pirates taking over ships, a few days ago even one of the largest ships in the world, mainly in Somalian waters.

I just read an article about an Indian frigate sinking one of the pirates ships (even a larger one) after the pirates opened fire.

I'm wondering how long it'll take for a (needed) large scale attack on the pirates. It's pretty obvious that they don't want to talk and they will keep on capturing ships if we don't do anything.

Sadly my government is, like always, too afraid to take any steps over the point of cruising around with some ships...

[Commando84 0]

I read in the news that the islamic army or whatever they where called that had tried to take over mogadishu and rule it had made a statement they would take back the oil tanker because it was from saudi arabia and should not have been attacked...

I heard also discussions on the news about scenarios that Al-qaida could join forces with the pirates, but I doubt the pirates will be able to keep doing their pirating for to long now when us and russian and other nations navy ships been patroling the lawless waters outside of Somalia.

[Commando84 0]

whats with the israelis going omg motherland on the palestines for shooting some new years rockets?

I wasn't literal there but the dammage caused by the palestine rockets seems very small compared to the whole onslaught the israelis are dropping down on the palestines, like whats with balance and fair play?

Won't bombing the shit even more out of those peoples homes and businesses just spawn more angry people that would become future terrorists?

[HotShot 0]

I think it is a show of force to show that attacking Israel hurts. After Lebanon, I think the IDF is worried that they are not being taken seriously by its enemies and can't prevent attacks at the moment by threats alone. It looks like they'll be sending in ground troops as well - will be interesting to see how that goes.

[Commando84 0]

yeah Its strange really that Hamas had all them rockets to fire far away but no anti air missiles or anything to really even scare the F-16's the slightest

Really bad prioritys or maybe the anti air stuff was out of stock in the gear shop?

[walker 0]

Hi all

Israel dare not take in tanks because Hamas have stocked up with EFP IEDs; tried and tested, cheap and easy to make; and the perfect weapon in this kind of urban environment. If they go in on the ground it will be with infantry on foot probably targeted raids. Hamas will probably respond with mass civilian protests at the incursion sites and ignoring threatened curfews and mixed with it some point captures of Israeli soldiers.

As to MANPADS they are hard to learn how to fire and international treaties mean they are very hard and expensive to obtain. They are also useless against high flying aircraft; for that you either need long range read large very expensive anti air systems with integrated early warning radar. OR Fighters both of which are out of the question for Hamas. So until someone invents a cheap low tech method of taking down high flying aircraft, the bomber will get through.

Israel will just sit back and try to air bomb and them into submission. Of course that had no effect on the UK during the blitz or indeed on Germany who suffered ten times what they inflicted on others. Hamas will just keep firing missiles and like Hezbollah at the end of the last Lebanon war claim victory because they stopped Israel.

Israel could take the high stakes poker route. Simply moving into bits of Gaza and saying they are annexing them and are now part of Israel and will never be given back. Do it say 500m at a time. Wait a day then do some more. Let the increasing loss of land do the negotiating. Keep it up if necessary until Gaza is packed so tight there is standing room only. Use infantry to clear every bit then tanks to hold it. If they do that Israel should not bomb Gaza until it is rubble as rubble is harder to fight over than streets; Stalingrad taught everyone that. Of course the Muslim world will scream and shout but they will not get world support as it is land not lives. Land is what Hamas want. So punish them by taking it away from them. That will make Hamas seem ineffective. Of course this depends on Israel having the courage to take the missiles and captured soldiers on the chin and just continue to improve point hits on missile launch-teams.

Hamas will turn it into trench warfare if they have any sense and they did do the same in Lebanon. Trenches are also excusable as protection for civilians. It also mixes up civilians with war efforts radicalises the civilian population as digging trenches gives them some thing to do that makes them part of the war effort. Hamas can then excuse its military tunnels as civilian bomb shelters. As Israel bombs more; Hamas will gain more sympathy, plucky Palestinians and all that. The Muslim world will get increasingly angry, OPEC will cut its oil along with Russia, Pakistan will threaten to give Hamas support even Saudi Arabia will. At some point the bombs will dry up; probably the laser guided ones first, because world opinion will turn against Israel. Then both sides will sit across the barbed wire glaring at each other just the same as before.

I think the rest of the world should sell both sides arms and make lots of money. Sell them everything including a couple of nukes without a delivery system so these two Semitic peoples can kill a few million of each other then they might decide they would be better off compromising and agreeing a treaty.

Of course both sides could pull back from brink and realise the other side are humans too. Then they might agree a peace treaty but do not bet on it. Israel is not prepared to let the Palestinians control their own borders or have their own port in Gaza. And Hamas want all their land back. Too many idiots on both sides would like to wipe out the other though both will try and say it is only the really bad ones on the other side that should be killed.

When the really bad ones on both sides realise the other side are humans too and shake hands across the table. Then the middle east will have peace and not until.

Kind Regards walker

[ExtracTioN 0]

Well said Walker

[Baff1 0]

There will never be peace there.

There isn't enough resources.

In order for one family to have children, another family must go without.

I'll kill anyone for my children. Any sane man would.

The Palestinians want their farms back.

But Israel is using them to grow food for their own kids.

If the Palestinians ever get their farms back, they will have more children until the farms they have are not enough to support their children again. Just as the Israeli's have.

And then they will attack their neighbours.

Understanding that your neighbour is human too doesn't help all that much.

[sparks50 0]

I think the main reason for the Israelis to build the wall where it is today, is to increase the distance a terror rocket would have to travel to reach built-up civilian areas.

I'm pretty neutral to the conflict. It all seems so meaningless and like its never going to end.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Israel had to react, hamas new before exactly what will happen if they only shoot enough rockets over a long period.

They hide behind civilians, knowing that every civilian killed in that conflict will play in their hands.

It was foreseeable how the world, especially the muslim world, would react once Israel strikes back hard.

How long would any other country tolerate, to get shot with rockets and grenades on a regular basis?

Every country would use force to stop that, whatever it takes.

You can`t negotiate with a "party" that has the goal to destroy your land. "Oh yeah, lets make a ceasefire. But after that we`ll kill you all".

[Baff1 0]

They hide behind civilians, knowing that every civilian killed in that conflict will play in their hands.

Is there somewhere else for them to hide then?

They are packed in like sardines there.

It's the most densely populated area of the world. The only place there away from civilians is no mans land and Israeli snipers shoot anyone who try to go there.

I find it bizarre that you think Hamas members are hoping their families die too when they get bombed at home.

Utterly ludicrous and devoid of human empathy.

[Walking_Death 0]

Israel had to react, hamas new before exactly what will happen if they only shoot enough rockets over a long period.

They hide behind civilians, knowing that every civilian killed in that conflict will play in their hands.

It was foreseeable how the world, especially the muslim world, would react once Israel strikes back hard.

How long would any other country tolerate, to get shot with rockets and grenades on a regular basis?

Every country would use force to stop that, whatever it takes.

You can`t negotiate with a "party" that has the goal to destroy your land. "Oh yeah, lets make a ceasefire. But after that we`ll kill you all".

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap....73.html

Plus, there is a siege  going on  for over 18 months on Gaza.

Is Hamas just going to watch their people starve to death?