EECP - Enhanced ECP

[TA-50 0]

Quote[/b] ]I rather doubt that a weapon that fires the same round as the M16 at a much higher rate of fire is going to have less recoil unless it's on a bipod.

I could not disagree more with the above statement.

The M249 SAW has a loaded weight of nearly 24 pounds when loaded with a 200 round box of linked rounds.

Its cyclic rate of fire is 725 rounds per minute when the gas regulator is set in the normal position(where is should be left 99.9 percent of the time)

The M16A2 has a loaded weight of 8.8lbs with a 30 round magazine.

Its cyclic rate of fire is 750-800rpm (note cyclic rate is a theoretical measure given infinite ammo and no mag changes it is usefull in comparing controlability and is not to be confused with the practical rate of fire).

The  SAW actually has a lower cyclic rate of fire than the M-16 series at over twice the weight.  The recoil impulse of the M-249 is much lower.

I can also vouch for this from personal experience with both weapons systems as an Armorer several years ago

Heavy Metal is right.  Unlike to M60, the M249 SAW is managable enough to be fired the shoulder.  When firing, soldiers fire bursts instead of going cyclic.  We fire the weapon long enough to say "give me a burst" (compared to the "give me a burst of six" for the M60) to keep up a sustained rate of fire.

In fact, the weapon is so managable that units equipped with SAWs often use them in MOUT operations, they even have a role in room clearing.  And forget the sterotype that only the largest soldiers are fit to hump machine guns. While that may be the case for the M240, the M249 is as omminous as M16s. The key idea is light machine gun.  Its a niche the weapon fills amply.   That said, I have never had to fight the recoil of the SAW when it was employed properly.

Finally, remember that most US weapons are noted for their minimal recoil.  The M16, M249 SAW, and M240B all have relatively large buffer springs which absorb the recoil.  And like Heavy Metal,  I am speaking from military experiance.

[Taconic 0]

Well, considering that you guys have actually fired it, I guess I'll have to take your word for it since the only projectile weapons that I've fired have been bows. I'll tone down the recoil a bit, but probably not to S&E's initial values. Early testing showed that the AI was MUCH more effective with the M249 than the PK - AI squads equipped with SAW gunners would always beat the Russian squads under pretty much every circumstance I put them in. Admitedly my tests weren't as scientific as they could have been (I didn't lower the M249's RoF to equal the PK's,) but the results were undeniable.

[Heavy Metal 0]

Hey Kurayami,

I can give you another option, replace the 5.56 M-249 SAW with the 7.62 M-240 that replaced the M-60.

It should be a more even match for the PKM.

[sanctuary 19]

In real life, yes the SAW has a low recoil due to the weight, that is right.

But you have to notice that in OFP there is no weight/size/etc.. difference between OFP weapons (in fact you use a heavy machingun the same as a submachingun : you just move it at the same speed around the screen and click to fire) and that recoil was a way to compensate about the "less easy to carry and to aim" weapon in the face of the gun created to be light , easy to move, easy to aim.

So adding less recoil to a machingun in OFP will just make it a superweapon , making obsolete and unsuefull every other weapons.

In real life, there are reasons to choose light and easy to carry and easy to aim weapons in specific situations,

But with a low recoil machinegun those reasons would not exist anymore in OFP.

That is one of the situation the gameplay balance must have the priority, because some other important IRL factors about the guns are not used by OFP.

[TA-50 0]

Hey Kurayami,

I can give you another option, replace the 5.56 M-249 SAW with the 7.62 M-240 that replaced the M-60.

It should be a more even match for the PKM.

I've thought about the weapon choice too.  The thing is, many fights in OFP are at the squad level.  The M240B is not only a platoon level asset (with 2 M240s per PLT), but it's also a crew served weapon, with a MG and AG attached.

I believe the SAW may be more appropriate for OFP, especially the orginal boxed campaigns.  As it is, the standard US Army infantry squad equips two of these per squad.  OFP, however, usually only deploys one MG per squad and having a M240B attached to a squad is not unheard of.  Many OFP missions are also lacking in the amount of automatic weapons on the US team.

[Heavy Metal 0]

You are right TA-50, the 240 is a plt level asset like the M-60 before it.

IIRC, the 60 usually floated back and forth to stay with the overwatch element most of the time.

I am only thinking in this context of keeping the playing field level.

By that token, the PKM should also proabally be a Plt level asset and the russian Squad Automatic should be the RPK-74 as it is the analog (albiet a clearly inferior one as it has no quick change barrel) to the SAW.

Quick, now sombody add a barrel change mod/cookoff feature to OFP!

[Taconic 0]

Ah, the M240/249/RPK question. I've asked myself this one a few times.

As I see it, there are several problems.

1.) As mentioned, default squads in OFP have only one machinegunner, but there are two SAW gunners per squad in real life.

2.) The SAW is a squad level asset while the 240 is a platoon level asset, and OFP models combat on the squad level.

3.) I don't know of any high quality M240s. BAS has one, but it kind of pales in comparison to Suchey & Earl's weapons.

4.) The RPK uses a drum magazine... IIRC it holds 75 rounds. The box mag on the 249 holds 200. That coupled with its high RoF (by OFP standards) would give US squads a serious advantage. While realism is certainly a goal of mine, I'm trying to shy away from things that would give either side a very clear advantage, especially within BIS missions.

Those are the reasons behind my choice of the 240/PK combo.

As I see it, there are several viable puritantical hyper-realistic solutions that we can all live with.

1.) Equip US forces with an M240. Make believe that OFP squads are perpetually under strength platoons. Suchey & Earl have an awesome M240 that may eventually surface (I know that NAFP has it.)

2.) Change default group definitions to include two machinegunners per squad. Keep the 249, add RPK-74. I've considered messing around with this a few times, but never actually got around to it. I have idea how this would effect the game and lots of testing would need to be done.

3.) Leave things as they are.

As for solution 2, does anybody know if any mags of higher capacity than the drums are available for the RPK? I've never seen them, but I suppose it's possible and would go a long way towards rebalancing the forces if I went this route.

Thoughts?

And as an aside...

It figures that the first time that I don't check OFP news for 3 days there would be a deluge of addons released. I've been playing Rome: Total War and sort of lost track of OFP for the last few days. It seems that I've got a lot of updates to do for the RHS/CBT stuff.

[theavonlady 2]

Kurayami, would you consider upgrading from JAM to MAAM in the near future?

It should be extremely easy to do.

[Taconic 0]

Kurayami, would you consider upgrading from JAM to MAAM in the near future?

It should be extremely easy to do.

Sure. But I don't use JAM in EECP.

I did a lot of work on 0.4.3 earlier in the week. I got all of the CBT and RHS stuff updated. Now I just have to check the updated updated Combat stuff and finish off a few more things before I'll have something ready for beta.

[Heavy Metal 0]

Quote[/b] ]4.) The RPK uses a drum magazine... IIRC it holds 75 rounds. The box mag on the 249 holds 200. That coupled with its high RoF (by OFP standards) would give US squads a serious advantage. While realism is certainly a goal of mine, I'm trying to shy away from things that would give either side a very clear advantage, especially within BIS missions.

Actually the RPK-74 uses quad-stack 60 round magazines (very new) and 45 round double stack magazines. No production drums exist for it. Of coures with ammo being much lighter, the gunner can carry a larger load than he could for the RPK-47.

[Hawkeye 1985 0]

ah it's nice to hear from a new version

-What will be changed ?

-Any new Units ?

-More realistic ?

-When comes it out ?

I like your Mod... I think it's a bit more realistic than Pappy's Config... (don't punch )

Do you know anything to the new ECP Core ?

Is it true that it comes out on November ?

i know so many questions ...

Greez: Hawkeye 1985

[Taconic 0]

Actually the RPK-74 uses quad-stack 60 round magazines (very new) and 45 round double stack magazines. No production drums exist for it. Of coures with ammo being much lighter, the gunner can carry a larger load than he could for the RPK-47.

Ugh. Yes, you're right. It's the RPK-47 that can use drums.

[Taconic 0]

-What will be changed ?

A bunch of things.

I'm not going to commit to anything just yet because there are a few changes that may not make it. If they'll hold up the release by a signifigant margin, I won't add them this time.

Quote[/b] ]-Any new Units ?

Yes. Partial list:

All CBT units updated

All RHS units updated

5T ammo, repair > CBT M977

5T fuel > CBT M978

5T, 5T open > reverted back to Marfy's

Resistance T-72 > SIG T-72CZ (in his tank pack that is already required)

HMMWV > CBT M1025

I'm considering changing the Jeep-MG to the M1025 and the HMMWV to the normal unarmed model...

Also, is there a desire to have the A-10 replaced? A few good A-10s have come out, but I haven't really bothered making use of them because fixed wing aircraft are such a small part of OFP.

Quote[/b] ]-More realistic ?

Hopefully.

Quote[/b] ]-When comes it out ?

I can't say for certain (remember, every time that I give a release date, I miss it.) "Fairly soon." I already sent out an alpha version to my testers. The beta will be ready once I finish sorting out the updated CBT stuff and get a few more things done.

Quote[/b] ]I like your Mod... I think it's a bit more realistic than Pappy's Config... (don't punch )

Thanks.

Quote[/b] ]Do you know anything to the new ECP Core ?

Is it true that it comes out on November ?

I can't really say. I honestly don't have much more information about it with you guys. I talk to Zayfod every once in a while when I run up against a wall and need some input about some part of ECP's functionality, but I'm not really privy to any sort of "inside info."

I can't imagine that the wait will be too much longer, though.

[sanctuary 19]

Have you tried the FDF mod Kurayami ?

If you haven't tried this mod yet, you should download the (huge unfortunately) file, the weapon recoil feel more realistic than in any other mod (or BIS default) i tested.

With the way the FDF team made the recoil in their config, it is not that easy anymore to hit with all the burst shots all the enemies at 500m, making firefight a bit longer without giving a disadvantage to one side.

It should be interesting to make a similar recoils (tweaked to your convenience of course) in your config as from what i saw while browsing some config.cpp the recoil setting does not need the whole huge addons pack if it is located in the main config file (well, in theory as  i have not tested myself in my personnal replacement config )

[GAZ NZ 0]

Sanctuary - the offical ECP mod makers were playing with recoils - i recommend you find and read the thread with there recoil development and testing.

From the beta configs i tested it was very realistic.

The new ECP config will come out hopefully in November if i remmember correctly the rough time line given.

Kurayami will then modiify his EECP in line with that change once it happens id imagine.

[sanctuary 19]

I am currently playing with my own unit replacements using the actual ECP mod editable config.

It will be interesting to see the result of their own recoil work in the upcoming ECP version, as when you try the FDF recoils, it is difficult to come back to the +/- BIS recoils (or worse like the MAP SAW).

I hope it will be as good as FDF succeeded to do.

[Taconic 0]

Have you tried the FDF mod Kurayami ?

If you haven't tried this mod yet, you should download the (huge unfortunately) file, the weapon recoil feel more realistic than in any other mod (or BIS default) i tested.

With the way the FDF team made the recoil in their config, it is not that easy anymore to hit with all the burst shots all the enemies at 500m, making firefight a bit longer without giving a disadvantage to one side.

I've been a user of the FDF Mod since their first release. I too like the feel of their recoil values, which is why I asked them if I could adapt them for this config. Unfortunately, they "forbid" this because they apparently don't think much of my efforts, so I scrapped those plans and put my own recoil tweaks on the back burner for the time being.

Quote[/b] ]It should be interesting to make a similar recoils (tweaked to your convenience of course) in your config as from what i saw while browsing some config.cpp the recoil setting does not need the whole huge addons pack if it is located in the main config file (well, in theory as i have not tested myself in my personnal replacement config )

Replacing the recoil values with something more realistic has been on my "to-do" list for quite a while, and it will eventually happen. Basically I've been trying to prioritize and get other things out of the way before I spend a week goofing around with recoils and trying to find something that feels more realistic.

Of course, this will all be moot if the ECP team comes up with more suitable recoil values in their next release as GAZ NZ said.

[sanctuary 19]

A bit sad that some people refuse to allow other to use a part of their work despite you asked them, it would have been only a benefit to the community, without hurting the FDF mod as people continue to play with it.

But that said, as the ECP team will certainly come with a good work on the recoil department (and looking at their other already included achievements, i have no doubt they will make something really interesting), it is not that sad anymore

Keep up your good work , actually it helped me a lot to understand how things were working inside for my personnal replacement config .

[Taconic 0]

Keep up your good work , actually it helped me a lot to understand how things were working inside for my personnal replacement config .

That's a bit amazing to me considering how messy everything is at the moment.

I've had a bunch of things sitting around from my yet-to-be fully realized 0.5 branch of the config for months that really clean up the various classes a lot. It should make things a lot easier for anybody that wants to poke around once I've actually incorporated the changes into a release version.

[nubbin77 0]

Good to hear about all the additional work your putting in the mod Kurayami. Still the best mod out.

I was wondering if you had considered messing with the vehicle explosions special effects at all. I know some of the special effects packs are a little "over the top" and unrealistic - (but damn, some of those are really cool). I was wondering if the eventhandlers for explosions / dead vehicles could be randomized - so maybe there is a 5-10% chance of a big boom explosion (like the ammo in a tank got caught just right for a big fireball).

I'm sure you have seen the big explosions I am talking about - if not I'll link something. Just a thought. The mod still kicks major ass regardless.

[sanctuary 19]

Messy or not, your editable version (the .cpp you offered somewhere in the thread) really helped me , along with Papy Boyington mini tutorial.

To add a bit more about the weapon handling , i had fun recently with tweaking the " aimprecision " values for the different stance a unit can take (that is in fact how much the weapon can "sway" while aiming, affecting both the player and the AI), you can obtain some very interesting (or fun when you try very high values ) results there.

I am currently poking around, thanks to this tutorial in the CfgRecoils part, to deal with the recoil itself.

I am confident that very great things, like FDF did, can be made tweaking those values there, and judging by the experts of the ECP team, the next version should be very very good to help E:ECP to be even more immersive

[RED 0]

The ECP test config that General Barron made a while back can be found here - Some pretty cool stuff

Hopefuly the new ECP version will be out mid/end of november, we will give Kurayami advanced notice of its release so he can alter his config to work with it.

RED

[sanctuary 19]

I can only say :

November will be a good month , please don't forget to include some editable config

[Taconic 0]

I was wondering if you had considered messing with the vehicle explosions special effects at all. I know some of the special effects packs are a little "over the top" and unrealistic - (but damn, some of those are really cool). I was wondering if the eventhandlers for explosions / dead vehicles could be randomized - so maybe there is a 5-10% chance of a big boom explosion (like the ammo in a tank got caught just right for a big fireball).

I'm sure you have seen the big explosions I am talking about - if not I'll link something. Just a thought. The mod still kicks major ass regardless.

As is almost always the answer: "I have plans for this. It's just a matter of getting it done."

Hopefuly the new ECP version will be out mid/end of november, we will give Kurayami advanced notice of its release so he can alter his config to work with it.

Awesome. That'll be very helpful.

I guess I could give a couple of updates:

-I've been working on making EECP more "internationally friendly" by moving from fixed string values to OFP's (great) stringtable system. I'm hoping to have all action menu selections and HUD info available in French and German in 0.4.3.

I still don't have anybody that can help me with Czech, Italian, and Spanish. I'm also still looking for people willing to translate the important parts of the readme (basically just the explaination of what EECP is, the credits, and the install instructions) into Czech, Italian, Spanish, Polish, and Russian. Or any language, really. Those are just the languages of ofp.info and various other sites that EECP has been listed on. I have Swedish, German, and French taken care of here.

-Dreamline has taken over some of my heavy duty scripting projects for me... This means that you may actually see them completed and implemented into the config before 2007.

[nubbin77 0]

Dreamline has taken over some of my heavy duty scripting projects for me... This means that you may actually see them completed and implemented into the config before 2007

oooooo... what kind of scripting??

Edit: Could someone teach me how to quote and have it show up in the white box.- I am too stupid to figure it out.