The Iraq thread 3

[scfan42 0]

My point has always been that the war should never have been started.

Then apparently you care nothing at all about other people, you don't care if they're being oppressed and mistreated as long as you're okay in your nice warm little house.

[denoir 0]

Anyway, it seems NATO has entered the fold....

Yeah, in the most liberal meaning of the expression. No NATO troops will be deployed to Iraq (hardly surprising).

It's a symbolic gesture of sending a couple of drill instructors and a bunch of equipment.

The Afghanistan NATO addition of troops took a very long time to negotiate and we're talking about barely 2,000 additional soldiers.

It's really just politics. Europe gets to show how much it "cares" about establishing democracies around the world and Bush gets to add a slogan for his election campaign about "international support". In short, nothing of substance.

[denoir 0]

My point has always been that the war should never have been started.

Then apparently you care nothing at all about other people, you don't care if they're being oppressed and mistreated as long as you're okay in your nice warm little house.

Yeah, the war was about caring for the poor Iraqis. Right. Now tell me the story about little red riding hood...

Plus you're forgetting the little fact that the Iraqis are no better off right now than they used to be under Saddam. Surveys and polls have shown that only a minority think that things have improved. A majority thinks things are the same or worse than under Saddam. Sure they're glad Saddam is gone, but they're not overly thrilled with you either.

Also, of course you're conveniently forgetting the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians that have been killed..

And don't get me started on how you made Iraq to a terrorist haven that now poses a threat to the entire world.

[brgnorway 0]

My point has always been that the war should never have been started.

Then apparently you care nothing at all about other people, you don't care if they're being oppressed and mistreated as long as you're okay in your nice warm little house.

Oh no - quite the opposite actually!

But having to choose between to evils I certainly wouldn't pick the invasion in favour of the UN way!

Did you or your nation care about the effects the embargo and "food for oil" / "food for medicine" had on the average civilian Iraqi? Are you aware of the faith of all the children (and grown ups of course) that had to die because of someone denied them vital treatment and drugs?

And yes, my house is warm just like yours I suppose!

[billybob2002 0]

that why I put it seems

[bn880 5]

A good question I may pose here is: "What do people who supported the "action" in Iraq consider a failure of the mission, a failure of part of the mission, and the mission was?"

mission/campaign obviously

EDIT: I did not support this, but I will get you started:

part of the campaign was to depose Saddam (check), this point includes the end of his regime

I guess silently my point is being made, as the minutes and hours go by, no one who supported the war can come up and defined the possible failures. (not yet anyway)

If you have no concept of what constitutes a failure in a campaign or of the entire campaign, then you think the campaign is always a success.

An oversight such as this can be caused by a failure to plan. A plan usually is composed of multiple contingencies in case something fails, when failure is not defined you have no real plan, and you can't fail since that's out of the picture. It's great reasoning isn't it.

What? Same to you.

Okay lets quit screwing around!

I will bet it's safe to say most people who still support the US actions in Iraq constitute a failure to be when US forces are defeated in Iraq, old fashoned way; when exchanges in fire result in US forces taking heavy casualties and running away.

Face it, no sort of problems with security/corruption/famine/civilian casualties mean failure to you, only when your ARMY is kicked out of the entire country.

Well here is a newsflash: if you go to a country to remove it's WMD's and find none you have failed. When you go into a country to free the people but instead destabalize the region you have failed. And it goes on, such as opening fire at pretty random targets when one of your precious "ARMIES of one" gets hit. Even though it's their job, casualties are clearly above human life.

[scfan42 0]

Yes... the UN way... "Go ahead, violate all the rules you want! Fly your planes in the no-fly zone, continue hiding the WMD from the inspectors, shoot at the planes flying CAP!"

And how could it be our fault that Saddam was starving his people? He went and used the food for oil thing to get himself a bigger army, where he could've easily downsized and sold a bunch of stuff to feed his people, but he didn't.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Yes... the UN way... "Go ahead, violate all the rules you want! Fly your planes in the no-fly zone, continue hiding the WMD from the inspectors, shoot at the planes flying CAP!"

And how could it be our fault that Saddam was starving his people? He went and used the food for oil thing to get himself a bigger army, where he could've easily downsized and sold a bunch of stuff to feed his people, but he didn't.

Do yourself a favor and read back through this thread. And Iraq Thread 2. And the first one. Do you honestly think you're contributing something new and worthwhile to a discussion about Iraq that has gone on for over 10,000 posts by saying "oh noes, Saddam is EVIL"?

[Balschoiw 0]

I bet one of the next posts will contain "Why do you hate America so much?" It always comes down to it when arguments are missing.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Handover of power in Iraq changed to today-BBC Breaking News

Iraqi handover 'brought forward'

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi handover 'brought forward'

 

The handover of sovereignty to Iraq is being brought forward from 30 June to today, Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has said.

Mr Zebari was speaking after talks with the UK Prime Minister Tony Blair in the Turkish city of Istanbul.

Mr Blair said a formal announcement would be made later.

The BBC's political editor Andrew Marr in Istanbul says the surprise move, which emerged at the start of a Nato summit, is an important symbolic step.

Seems Wednesday was too far away...

[Balschoiw 0]

I´d rather say they´re doing this to confuse the resistance fighters and terrorists. Will there be big parades and parties all over the country ?

Will Bush / Blair drive around in Bagdad in an open Limo to receive the gratitude of the Iraqis ?

Or is it just like , "now take care of yourself, good luck" ?

Edit:

Well, talking of democracy and freedom :

Bremer imposes U.S. influence on Iraq

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jun. 27 (UPI) -- The United States is to hand power to Iraqi officials Wednesday, but legal changes recommended by administrator L. Paul Bremer will retain U.S. influence.

The Washington Post reported Sunday that Bremer has approved numerous actions, such as appointing at least two dozen Iraqis to government jobs with multi-year terms -- beyond that of the Iraq's interim government.

For example, Bremer has ordered the Iraqi national security adviser and national intelligence chief chosen by the interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, be given five-year terms. That, in effect, imposes Allawi's choices on the newly-elected government that is to take over next year, the Post said.

Bremer's measures will remain in effect unless overturned by Iraq's interim government. One measure restricts the power of the interim government and details U.S.-crafted rules for the country's democratic transition.

Another controversial order gives a seven-member commission the power to disqualify political parties and any candidate the government supports.

Haha what a handover. We decide , you pay in blood. Of course this will be accepted by liberated Iraqi´s...not.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

is it just like , "now take care of yourself, good luck" ?

I would say there are good odds it's something along those lines, and yes, it does interfere with any plans the militants may have had for a real big celebration come the 30th.

[Balschoiw 0]

Oh and there´s alway Condi:

Rice reaffirms link between Iraq and al-Qaeda

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON: US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice on Sunday vigorously defended administration claims of a link between Iraq and the al-Qaeda terrorist network, but said it fell short of "operational control."

Disputing allegations by leading Democrats that the White House had misled the US public to justify the invasion of Iraq, Rice said Iraqi security services had maintained contacts with al-Qaeda going back a decade.

"It’s simply not true that there was no contact, that there were no relationships between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein," she said in an interview with Fox News Sunday from Ankara en route to a NATO summit with President George W. Bush.

"I would say, yeah, it wasn’t operational control. But there was some facilitation of what al-Qaeda was trying to accomplish," Rice said.

She contradicted a national commission investigating the September 11, 2001 terror attacks that said earlier this month it found no evidence of a "collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein’s regime and al-Qaeda.

"It is not anyone’s contention that somehow Saddam Hussein directed 9/11," Rice said. But she added that Baghdad "provided expertise in bomb making, in document forgery" to Osama bin Laden’s group.

Rice said Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, a reputed al-Qaeda operative and mastermind of a series of anti-US attacks in Iraq, was "known to be from time to time in Baghdad, his network operated out of Baghdad."

Bush’s top national security aide said that Saddam was also involved with "a wide range of terrorists," including Palestinian suicide bombers whose families received 25,000 dollars from Iraq for each attack.

"Saddam Hussein’s regime was a sponsor of terrorism. It’s been noted in State Department reports for years and years and years," she said. "It’s been noted in UN Security Council resolutions."

Rice also defended the administration’s contention it was necessary to invade Iraq to rid it of suspected weapons of mass destruction, even though evidence of nuclear, biological or chemical arms has never been found.

"His regime used weapons of mass destruction (in the past), continued to seek to make weapons of mass destruction, had the capability, the intent, the knowledge and the know-how to do it," she said.

"That says nothing of the horrors he committed against his own people. We overthrew one of the worst tyrants of the 20th century who was well into those activities in the 21st century."

Ignorance is bliss ?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

is it just like , "now take care of yourself, good luck" ?

I would say there are good odds it's something along those lines, and yes, it does interfere with any plans the militants may have had for a real big celebration come the 30th.

See, now that's just spiteful. When murderous insurgents go through the trouble of planning large-scale attacks, it isn't just about causing death and destruction; it's their way of showing that they care. When you go and muck up a sincere display of heartfelt feelings like that, you're going to hurt some feelings.

[Balschoiw 0]

Oh and another goody:

Iraq's missing oil billions

Quote[/b] ]Billions of dollars from Iraq's oil fund cannot be accounted for by the US occupation authority - which was given responsibility for the country's finances by the UN.

Reports by Christian Aid and the Liberal Democrats, Britain's third-largest political party, said there were glaring gaps in the handling of $20 billion generated by Iraq's oil.

The Christian Aid report on Sunday also said the majority of Iraq's reconstruction projects had been awarded to US companies, which charged up to 10 times more than their Iraqi equivalents.

The UN gave the US occupation authority responsibility for the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) after the fall of Saddam Hussein in May 2003.

But it stipulated that expenditure must be shown to be in the country's best interests and that all revenue should be paid into a simple fund.

However, Christian Aid and the Liberal Democrats said that no audit on the money had been carried out until April 2004.

Unaccountable spending

Christian Aid spokeswoman Helen Collison said that for an entire year it "has been impossible to tell with any accuracy what the CPA [Coalistion Provisional Authority] has been doing with Iraq's money".

The occupation authority reported in May that $9.4 billion had been paid into the DFI and spent on a wheat purchase programme, electricity and oil infrastructure and equipment for Iraqi security forces.

It said that $10.8 billion of the total sum was due from oil revenues by 21 June, this year.

However, the Liberal Democrat report said its research suggested that oil revenues stood at $12.2 billion to $14.5 billion. Christian Aid put the figure at $13 billion.

Lack of clarity

Both reports stressed it was not clear how much of the money had been spent. The Liberal Democrats' study cited the accounting firm KPMG, which criticised the occupation authority for not metering oil production and questioned its spending.

"This apparent discrepancy requires full investigation," Menzies Campbell, the Liberal Democrat spokesman for foreign affairs, said.

"The cost of reconstruction of Iraq is considerable and those countries who are being asked to contribute will want to know that Iraq's own resources are making a maximum contribution."

Christian Aid said that Iraqi companies had been awarded contracts worth a miniscule total of $500,000 since April 2004.

The report also claimed around $2 billion of Iraqi money was given to mostly US companies for poorly thought-out projects of no lasting benefit.

This is hardly a surprise for anyone.

Captive US marine faces execution in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]A US marine captured by a purported Iraqi resistance group is to be decapitated unless certain prisoners held in occupation prisons are released.

In a video broadcast by Aljazeera on Sunday, the Islamic Retaliation Movement/Armed Resistance Wing said US marine Hassoun Wassef Ali would be beheaded if detainees in US-led occupation prisons were not freed.

The group claims to have taken Ali - of Pakistani origin - captive after "infiltrating a US military base in Iraq".

The video received by Aljazeera shows a kneeling blindfolded moustached man in camouflage military garb. A hand holding a long sword is seen standing behind Ali.

US occupation forces acknowledged that a US marine had been reported missing.

US marine corporal Wassef Ali Hassoun has been missing in Iraq since last Monday, a spokesman for the US Marine Corps confirmed in Baghdad late on Sunday.

"Although we can't confirm that he has been taken hostage, we can confirm that that he has been absent from his unit since June 21," Major Douglas Powell said.

Hassoun was attached the the First Marine Expeditionary Force, and his unit was operating west of Falluja, Powell said.

Pakistani driver seized

Just hours earlier, an unidentified group of purported Iraqi fighters threatened to behead a Pakistani driver working for a US-occupation contractor within three days.

The captors also urged Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf to shut down his country's embassy in Iraq.

The second captive was named as Yusuf Amjad, an employee of US contractor Kellogg Brown and Root (KBR).

KBR is a subsidiary of the giant Halliburton company which was once headed by US Vice President Dick Cheney.

Like other contractors for the US-led occupation, it has suffered mounting attacks on its staff.

"This man was taken after an attack on a US base in Balad," said one of the masked fighters on a tape obtained by Al-Arabiya.

"You must release our prisoners held near the US base in Balad, in Dujail, in Yathrib, in Samarra and near Abu Ghraib. You have three days from the date of this recording and after that we will behead him. We have warned you."

This doesn´t sound especially promising.

[theavonlady 2]

Personally, I think it's time for the US to come out of their defensive positions and wage war the way it should be done or leave and let the Iraqis sort it out between themselves.

Quote[/b] ]New Iraqi police fight US troops who trained them

By Damien McElroy in Baghdad

(Filed: 27/06/2004)

With american fighter jets and helicopters buzzing the skies overhead, an officer in Iraq's new police force approaches a group of fighters on Fallujah's front lines with an urgent call to arms.

"I need a man who can use an RPG," says Omar, who wears the uniform of a first lieutenant. Four hands shoot up and a cry rings out: "We are ready." He chooses a young man, Bilal, and they drive to an underpass on the outskirts of the city.

There, on Highway One, an American Humvee is driving east. Bilal aims and fires his rocket propelled grenade, turning the vehicle into a smoking, twisted, metal carcass. The fate of its occupants is unknown.

First Lt Omar is sworn to uphold the law and fight the insurgency that threatens Iraq's evolution into a free and democratic state. Instead, he is exploiting his knowledge of US tactics to help the rebel cause in Fallujah.

"Resistance is stronger when you are working with the occupation forces," he points out. "That way you can learn their weaknesses and attack at that point."

An Iraqi journalist went into Fallujah on behalf of the Telegraph on Wednesday, a day on which an orchestrated wave of bloody rebel attacks across the country cost more than 100 lives.

Inside the Sunni-dominated town, he met police officers and units of the country's new army who have formed a united front with Muslim fundamentalists against the Americans, their resistance focused on al-Askeri district on the eastern outskirts of the town.

That morning, US marines had taken up "aggressive defence" positions on one side of Highway One. On the other side, militant fighters were dug in, ready for battle.

Their preparations were thorough. Along the length of a suburban street in al-Askeri, they had dug foxholes at the base of every palm tree. Scores of armed men lined the streets. Most had scarves wrapped around their heads but others wore the American-supplied uniform of Unit 505 of the Iraqi army, and carried US-made M-16 rifles. Yet more were dressed in the olive green uniforms worn by Saddam Hussein's armed forces. Since April, when a US offensive failed to crush an uprising by Islamic fighters and Ba'athist loyalists, Fallujah has been effectively a no-go area for American troops.

A newly formed, 2,000-strong force known as the Fallujah brigade, led by a Saddam-era general, Mohammed Latif, was supposed to disarm the rebels. Instead, the town remains a hotbed of resistance. Now, once again, US military pressure is being brought to bear.

Three separate air strikes have been launched on houses in the town in recent days, aimed at killing an al-Qaeda leader believed to be based in Fallujah. The Jordanian-born Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is believed to be behind the wave of kidnappings and terror attacks across Iraq.

US officials say that they narrowly missed their target on Friday, in their most recent strike on a house where he was suspected of hiding. Up to 25 people were killed.

On the ground in al-Askeri, tension was once again rising under the US attacks. Strangers had to seek permission from the "district commander", a local imam called Sheikh Yassin who controls a broad coalition of Saddam loyalists and Islamic radicals, to move beyond the rebel lines. The sheikh, who has emerged as the neighbourhood strongman since the uprising against American occupation, has used his following to unite all strands of resistance under his leadership.

His radio buzzed constantly as scouts, moving incognito in private cars, sent in reports about US positions around the suburb. The ground shook as F-16 Falcons dropped precision-guided 500lb bombs on rebel positions near the football stadium, half a mile away.

US commanders have spoken of their frustration over the Fallujah Brigade's failure to rein in rebels, and the ineffectiveness of the political deal struck with local tribes in April. "We've been prepared to pull the plug on it three or four times, but each time we detect a faint heartbeat," a senior marine officer said. To Sheikh Yassin, the supposedly anti-rebel brigade is a useful tool, providing support for his fighters. "We respect the Fallujah brigade - it never interferes against us," he says. He openly acknowledges that his coalition was a marriage of convenience, bringing together the secular Saddam faithful and Muslim fundamentalists.

The imam, who wants Iraq to be governed by Islamic law, points to one of his companions - a colonel in the disbanded Iraqi army - and asks why he is still fighting.

The colonel is blunt. "Fallujah is the starting point of the return of the Ba'ath Party," he says. "Our comrades in Baghdad and other provinces are joining our struggle. Here already we are free. No one can touch us."

In violence yesterday, a car bomb in the predominantly Shia city of Hilla, 60 miles south of Baghdad, killed at least 15 people according to the Arabic satellite news channel al-Jazeera.

Six guerrillas and several other people were killed in Baquba, north of Baghdad, when rebels blew up the local party headquarters of Ayad Allawi, Iraq's prime minister, and attacked a moderate Shia political party's office. Another car bomb killed a man in the Kurdish city of Arbil.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Is he cleaning his gun or why does it seem that there are parts missing. Anyone knows?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Is he cleaning his gun or why does it seem that there are parts missing. Anyone knows?

http://www.military.com/pics/FL_iraq_062704.jpg

Pistol fires, slide blows back ejecting the casing and facilitating the chambering of the next round. When the final round is fired, the slide locks back in that position.

For the hell of it because I'm bored, here's a video of a guy firing a couple modified Glock 18's- this is only relevant because it shows the pistol action perfectly. http://www.the-egg.com/files/video/high_capacity_mag_glocks.mov

[theavonlady 2]

Is he cleaning his gun or why does it seem that there are parts missing. Anyone knows?

Maybe it's a cigarette lighter.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Thanks Tex. I couldnt see the "slide" (as we call the top part of the gun that pulls back). But I got and watched what you mean!

[theavonlady 2]

Oh and another goody:

Iraq's missing oil billions

Interesting. I just saw this yesterday in an Iraq The Model blog entry:

Quote[/b] ]Al-Sharqiya TV reported that the IP forces in Basra made a successful arrest of the largest oil-smuggling gang.

The report said that the IP arrested nine members of the gang and found 24 tankers loaded with oil and ready to be smuggled outside Iraq.

From what I understand, Iraqi gasoline prices are subsidized and dirt cheap at the moment. An inviting business opportunity, if there ever was one.

[theavonlady 2]

Pulled a fast one:

Quote[/b] ]U.S. Transfers Sovereignty to Iraqi Govt.

21 minutes ago

By TAREK EL-TABLAWY, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S.-led coalition transferred sovereignty to an interim Iraqi government Monday, speeding up the move by two days in an apparent bid to surprise insurgents who may have tried to sabotage the step toward self rule.

Legal documents handing over sovereignty were handed over by U.S. governor L. Paul Bremer to interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi in a ceremony in the heavily guarded Green Zone.

"This is a historical day," Allawi said during the ceremony. "We feel we are capable of controlling the security situation."

Bremer will leave Iraq (news - web sites) sometime Monday, coalition officials said on condition of anonymity.

The ceremony took place in a formal room with Louis XIV furniture. Bremer sat on the couch with Allawi and President Ghazi al-Yawer.

"We'd like to express our thanks to the coalition," al-Yawer said. "There is no way to turn back now."

In Istanbul, Turkey, where President Bush (news - web sites) and other leaders were attending a NATO (news - web sites) summit, the U.S. administration said it was pleased by the early transfer and said it was a proud day for the Iraqi people.

"You have said, and we agreed, that you are ready for sovereignty," Bremer said in the ceremony. "I will leave Iraq confident in its future."

Allawi said he requested that the sovereignty be transferred earlier, reflecting a preference to have Iraqis control their own destiny as soon as possible. Last Thursday, the coalition transferred the final 11 of the 26 government ministries to full Iraqi control, meaning Iraqis were already handling the day to day operations of the interim administration.

Bremer went on a series of farewell visits to areas throughout the country over the past few days.

With the transfer, the Iraqis now face the daunting task of securing law and order with the help of about 135,000 U.S. troops and about 20,000 more from other coalition countries.

"We have been laying down strategies for protecting our people," Allawi said after the ceremony, adding that he would spell out details at a news conference later.

"The blood that has been spilled in Iraq has been spilled for a very good reason," Allawi said, explaining that it was in the cause of democracy and freedom.

[Ironsight 1]

At least there won't be much attacks

I think if it was on 30 June hell would have broken loose

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think if it was on 30 June hell would have broken loose

I´m sure this will happen anyway. But Bremer is already packing his guts to go back to the US today. Looks like he is very eager to leave Iraq.

[theavonlady 2]

Notice Al-Sistani's hate for Al-Qaida and the terrorists and his explanation of why beheadings are wrong.

Quote[/b] ]Shiites denounce al-Qaeda terror

From correspondents in Baghdad

June 28, 2004

KEY Iraqi anti-US leaders have expressed unease at the mounting insurgency in the country and denounced as infidels al-Qaeda's top leaders.

The country's leading Shiite, Ali al-Sistani condemned the wave of attacks orchestrated by Jordanian terrorist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi that has claimed the lives of 100 Iraqis a day.

In Karbala, a representative of Grand Ayatollah Sistani on Friday denounced the terror attacks and slammed Al-Qaeda's top leaders.

"Zarqawi, Zawahiri and bin Laden are filthy infidels who nurture malignance against Imam Ali and his sons," he said.

The militia of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr sought to prove it served the national interest as it laid down its weapons and backed the country's interim government in the run-up to Iraqi self-rule on Wednesday.

"There will not be a transfer of power to the Iraqi authorities," Sheikh Aws al-Khafaji said at Friday prayers in the Baghdad Shiite slum of Sadr City.

"But so the Americans cannot say the Mehdi Army has prevented the transfer of power, we will follow the Marjaiya's (senior Shiite cleric's) orders and see what they (the Americans) truly do."

On Sadr's behalf Sheikh Khafaji also denounced the beheading of American hostage Paul Johnson by Islamists in Saudi Arabia, saying the execution had cast a slur on Islam's reputation.

However, he also blamed the "wrong policy" of US President George W. Bush for the execution, which brought condemnation from around the world after pictures of Johnson's corpse were posted on Islamist websites.

"The beheading of an American hostage happened as a result of the wrong policy of the United States," Sheikh Khafaji said.

"As to the kidnappers, I say you were so hasty in beheading the captive. It would have been better to postpone the execution. By beheading the hostage you inflicted harm on Islam's reputation and caused troubles for Muslims living abroad.

"Anyhow, we denounce that ugly picture regardless of it being done against the Americans or those who committed the crime."

Sadr's militia waged a fierce rebellion against US-led forces for two months before agreeing to a truce in the first week of June.

Agence France-Presse