The Iraq thread 3

[ralphwiggum 6]

From one personal insult to another

You accuse me of being against a population of 750 million people

I answered you civillised:

Quote[/b] ]You haven`t provided me one piece of edvidence to sustain your blunt insult of me being against a population of 750 million citizens.Not once have I criticized America as a whole for the actions US millitary.No mather I shall continue explaining myself even though you give me no reason to do so.

This thread isn`t about NASA breakthroughs,USA providing humanitarian aid to other countries etc.If so I would be the first to congratulate your country.

It`s about the war in Iraq.A dirty,misleading war,in which  tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians lost their lifes and 873 coallition soldiers.How can I have a positive tone on US millitary actions while as I write there is more bloodshed in the country 1 year after the war ended and after numerous promises of security culminating with the capture of Saddam.

Should I look the other way when I read that 2 prisoners were murdered in Abu Gharib and 1,000 more pictures surface of prisoners beign abused,or when I read that hundreads of civillians were killed in the siege of Fallujah for ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING,or maybe when an Iraqi civillian is shot at point blank by a Marine?Sorry my friend but when innocent lifes are lost I tend to be extremly critical of the source of the violence.

And your noticebly lacking abillity of providing a founded  reply ends with another insult:

Quote[/b] ]sorry to ask, but did the gov't that you are related to do anything to ease world conflicts? just sitting by side is not one of them, just like breaking and not fixing it.

That`s disgusting and I will state it as the reason as to why I will cease the debate with you.

You know jack shit about about my country,I don`t think you can even pin-point it on the map.

And you lecture me about easing conflicts,when Romania has suffered&fighted occupation for the last 5 centuries,plunging from one to another,ignored and at the same time batrayed by its so called friends when it needed help the most.

My country has never refused to help others in need(I can provide you hundreads of examples),we never tried to impose our will on other countries,and we have sent peace keeping troops in Kosovo(if that`s what you wanted to know) and unfortunatly in Iraq too.

I also sincerly hope you weren`t refering to Iraq as to your country vast activity in "easing up world conflicts",quite the opposite actually...

read my statement again.

Quote[/b] ]sorry to ask, but did the gov't that you are related to do anything to ease world conflicts? just sitting by side is not one of them, just like breaking and not fixing it.

I'm not insluting your people, i'm not insulting anyone. closest to insult would be refering to your gov't, which is not your people. if talking about gov't is talkinga bout people, then you were indeed talking about US, not just TBA.

Quote[/b] ]You know jack shit about about my country,I don`t think you can even pin-point it on the map.

it shows how much you know about US. i'm a product of US education system.

[Bernadotte 0]

I did see the smiley and my interpretation of it was that you were discarding the similarities between one lynching and another as an absurdity.

There was nothing absurd about the one charred corpse being similar to the other.  Neither is acceptable or justifiable.  On that we agreed.

Quote[/b] ]

As for travelling through hostile territory by choice, you could equally say that the black people that got lynched lived in a hostile territory by choice.

Sorry, I really don't understand how.  Could you elaborate please?

My point is that you can always try to make excuses. In my opinion it is unacceptable in any circumstance. This is not something you should expect, even in a hostile environment.

Yes, it's unacceptable, however I do not agree about such incidents being unexpectable in a conflict zone.  And I certainly don't agree about black Americans having as much choice about where they were able to live 100 years ago as today's mercenaries have about where they work.

Quote[/b] ]A small group of insurgents killing 4 members of a foreign security force with grenades and gunfire is an ambush, not a lynching.  What the locals did to their corpses afterwards was desecration, not a lynching

IIRC they beat one or two of them to death. They were alive after the attack on the vehicles. Two were shot, two were dragged out and beaten to death by a mob (one of those dragged out was possibly dead or unconscious). At least it looked that way from the video.

In the absence of the insurgents, those contractors would probably have survived their trip through Fallujah.  They would not likely have been stopped by a mob, pulled from their vehicles and killed.  I did not see any of the video besides what was aired on BBC, but the mob seemed much more intent on celebrating the ambush than actually finishing off the victims.  I didn't know that at least one contractor had survived the ambush.  Perhaps I could more easily consider his death a lynching if this hadn't been a case of the occupied attacking the occupiers during an occupation.

The common link is the mob that completely lacks any notion of basic human values.

And making souvenir postcards of such events is certainly no less depraved than snapping digital pics of tormented Iraqi prisoners.

[quicksand 0]

From one personal insult to another

You accuse me of being against a population of 750 million people

I answered you civillised:

Quote[/b] ]You haven`t provided me one piece of edvidence to sustain your blunt insult of me being against a population of 750 million citizens.Not once have I criticized America as a whole for the actions US millitary.No mather I shall continue explaining myself even though you give me no reason to do so.

This thread isn`t about NASA breakthroughs,USA providing humanitarian aid to other countries etc.If so I would be the first to congratulate your country.

It`s about the war in Iraq.A dirty,misleading war,in which  tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians lost their lifes and 873 coallition soldiers.How can I have a positive tone on US millitary actions while as I write there is more bloodshed in the country 1 year after the war ended and after numerous promises of security culminating with the capture of Saddam.

Should I look the other way when I read that 2 prisoners were murdered in Abu Gharib and 1,000 more pictures surface of prisoners beign abused,or when I read that hundreads of civillians were killed in the siege of Fallujah for ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING,or maybe when an Iraqi civillian is shot at point blank by a Marine?Sorry my friend but when innocent lifes are lost I tend to be extremly critical of the source of the violence.

And your noticebly lacking abillity of providing a founded  reply ends with another insult:

Quote[/b] ]sorry to ask, but did the gov't that you are related to do anything to ease world conflicts? just sitting by side is not one of them, just like breaking and not fixing it.

That`s disgusting and I will state it as the reason as to why I will cease the debate with you.

You know jack shit about about my country,I don`t think you can even pin-point it on the map.

And you lecture me about easing conflicts,when Romania has suffered&fighted occupation for the last 5 centuries,plunging from one to another,ignored and at the same time batrayed by its so called friends when it needed help the most.

My country has never refused to help others in need(I can provide you hundreads of examples),we never tried to impose our will on other countries,and we have sent peace keeping troops in Kosovo(if that`s what you wanted to know) and unfortunatly in Iraq too.

I also sincerly hope you weren`t refering to Iraq as to your country vast activity in "easing up world conflicts",quite the opposite actually...

read my statement again.

Quote[/b] ]sorry to ask, but did the gov't that you are related to do anything to ease world conflicts? just sitting by side is not one of them, just like breaking and not fixing it.

I'm not insluting your people, i'm not insulting anyone. closest to insult would be refering to your gov't, which is not your people. if talking about gov't is talkinga bout people, then you were indeed talking about US, not just TBA.

Quote[/b] ]You know jack shit about about my country,I don`t think you can even pin-point it on the map.

it shows how much you know about US. i'm a product of US education system.

Care to explain how my gouverment actions has anything to do with our discussion starting from the point where you insulted me of being against your country?I see absolutley no corelation.

Or did you want to start a cockfight between our two gouverments?Do you even know who is the president in my country and what are our policies,and where he have sent peace keeping soldiers?IMO you have to know that before you accuse it of sitting aside watching the show unveil.Your question was just begging for an "Atleast my president was ellected by a majority of citizens,and hasn`t lied to its population to start a brutal illegal war,defying the UN" type of answer.

[quicksand 0]

Intresting read that confirms my view about the Iraqi brigade in Fallujah.Basicly it`s the same Resistance only now with shiny weapons and the old Iraqi uniform.

Bias aside,I still pounder what did the siege actually accomplish apart from the destruction of hundreads of Iraqi homes,the deaths of 700 civillians,the first time Resistance proclaims and celebrates victory and need I forget Saddam era uniforms for them?

Who is in control of Fallujah

Quote[/b] ]Iraqis who fought GIs now patrol Fallujah

FALLUJAH, Iraq - (KRT) - Last month, Yasser Harhoush said, he fought with the armed insurgents battling U.S. Marines.

A week ago, the wiry, clean-shaven 28-year-old dusted off his old olive-drab Iraqi military fatigues and joined Fallujah's new army brigade under the command of a former general who served under Saddam Hussein's regime.

Now he carries a shiny black assault rifle as he patrols Jolan, a neighborhood where some of the fiercest fighting took place. He mans military checkpoints. And he says he and his comrades in the 1st Fallujah Brigade are the solution to the monthlong fighting between the insurgents and the Marines.

"We are protecting the city so the coalition forces cannot come here again," Harhoush said.

In the week since the Marines agreed to create the 1st Brigade, 2,500 men like Harhoush have signed up to join a force that American officials are gambling will keep the peace in this war-ravaged city. Some 1,750 had begun working by the end of last week, according to a spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority.

The new soldiers were operating Friday in a pocket of the city devastated by the Marines' siege. In their spare time, they relaxed in a rickety metal hut across from a half-mile row of houses pocked by gunfire, destroyed by rockets and scorched by fire.

The smell of rotting garbage mixed with dust on a hot spring afternoon. It was worse around the corner, where the stench of death wafted from the rubble of a demolished home. A rocket had slammed through the front wall and left a 3-foot-deep crater filled with debris in the yard.

It was a devastating scene of urban warfare.

The brigade has taken up positions on the former front lines of fighting here and elsewhere in the city. The Marines have retreated to a base outside town from which they run checkpoints at the city's entrance and on main highways a few miles from the municipal borders.

Almost to a man, the new force was culled from the ranks of Saddam's disbanded army, the soldiers in the hut said. A year after U.S. forces vanquished the Iraqi army, the green uniforms and purple berets of the old regime are back in the streets of Fallujah.

"We're all from the previous Iraqi army," said 2nd Lt. Jassim Omar, a member of the new brigade who kept the same rank he had in the old Iraqi army. "They give preference to people with military experience."

In the metal hut in Jolan, Omar and a dozen other brigade members were taking applications from would-be recruits. The soldiers receive no salary and no additional military training, he said, but they expect eventually to be paid as part of the country's new army.

Many brigade members said they had fought the Marines in almost daily battles beginning April 5, when the Marines laid siege to the city to force residents to hand over those responsible for killing and mutilating the bodies of four civilian contractors March 31.

"Every one of us participated in defending Fallujah," Omar said. "Everybody had weapons."

"I also fought," Harhoush said.

Harhoush said he and his brothers joined the insurgency to avenge the death of their father, who he said was shot by Marines while driving through the city on the fourth day of fighting. But only he has joined the new Fallujah force.

The brigade was formed after intense negotiations between the Marines and Fallujah's civil, political and religious leaders. City native Jassim Mohammed Saleh, a former general in Hussein's army, was the first choice to lead the force, said Dr. Ahmad Hardan, a physician who headed the Fallujah negotiating team.

But prominent members of Iraq's Governing Council objected to Saleh's military past and high rank in the Baath Party, and he was replaced with another commander in Saddam's army, Gen. Mohammed Abdul-Latif, whose tribe is from Fallujah.

"The important thing is that the person should have good intentions toward Fallujah," Hardan said.

When the agreement was announced April 29, Fallujah's fighters began putting down their arms. Soon afterward, Abdul-Latif and other soldiers began appearing in the streets in their old military uniforms.

Since then, Iraqi families that fled the fighting have trickled back into the city through a checkpoint staffed by the Marines and members of a 1,100-strong Iraqi Civil Defense Corps force. They allow in 200 families a day.

Hundreds more have circumvented the checkpoint's huge sand and wire barriers by taking a dirt road that snakes through an industrial zone and leads to the city center.

Inside the city, shops have opened along main streets. People shop at a central vegetable market and pray at the city's mosques. But signs of recent fighting remind residents of the nightmare they endured.

In an old theater that became a makeshift hospital during the siege, metal cots and mattresses still filled the stage. Seats were piled with boxes of medical supplies, including cough syrup, gauze and syringes. Surgical caps were scattered on the floor.

The toll on the population was immense: About 700 lives, including 158 women, according to Hardan, the physician and negotiating team leader.

At a nearby soccer stadium, the shallow graves of 336 men and women lay in rows in the field and another dirt space outside. Makeshift headstones and palm fronds rose up from each mound of earth.

There were a few gaping holes where families had dug up loved ones to give them a proper Muslim burial in a cemetery outside the city that had remained out of reach during the fighting.

The city still needs to restore electricity and water supplies, reopen schools and help refugee families move home. Police and security forces have the grim task of searching homes for unexploded ordnance and bodies underneath the rubble.

"It's just starting to return back to normal," Hardan said.

Three groups, all in different uniforms or civilian clothes, patrol the city, including police, the civil defense force and the 1st Brigade.

It is unclear what will become of the brigade. Coalition spokesmen have described it as a temporary solution to the fighting. The soldiers expect eventually to become part of the permanent Iraqi army. Other Iraqis and coalition spokesmen have said they might become part of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps.

At the metal shack in Jolan, the soldiers seem averse to joining civil defense troops who fought alongside the Marines in the siege of Fallujah.

"The ICDC is totally under the control of the Americans," said Omar, the brigade member. "We are not taking orders from them."

Though the cease-fire is holding, the soldiers remain wary of the Marines, whose fortified checkpoints a few miles outside of town suggest to them a readiness on the part of the Americans to resume the fight.

"The war is not over," Harhoush said. "If they attack us, we will defend ourselves again

[Balschoiw 0]

Hey Ralph and Quicksand. Why don´t you just take it to PM ?

Seriously, your quarrel that lasts for a very long time now is not very interesting for anyone but you 2.

What do you think about taking it to PM ?

On Iraq:

Aid to rebuild Iraq is tapped for security

So much for rebuilding Iraq...

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON -- Seven months after Congress approved the largest foreign aid package in history to rebuild Iraq, less than 5 percent of the $18.4 billion has been spent, and occupation officials have begun shifting more than $300 million earmarked for reconstruction projects to administrative and security expenses.

Recent reports from the Coalition Provisional Authority, the coalition's inspector general and the U.S. Agency for International Development attest to the growing difficulties of the U.S.-led reconstruction effort. And they have raised concerns in Congress and among international aid experts that the Bush administration's ambitious rebuilding campaign is adrift amid rising violence and unforeseen costs.

Rep. Jim Kolbe, R-Ariz., chairman of the House Foreign Operations Appropriations Committee, cited "bureaucratic infighting" and a "loss of central command and control" at a recent hearing as he sharply questioned top administration officials: "I have very serious concerns about the pace of assistance in Iraq and the management of those funds."

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz pointed to successes in rebuilding and blamed contracting snafus for some of the delays. But Richard Armitage, a deputy secretary at the State Department, which will take over this summer, refused to make what he called excuses.

"Of course we're not satisfied," he said. "We feel the same sense of urgency that Paul feels to get on with it."

Of the $18.4 billion in Iraqi aid approved by Congress in October, just $2.3 billion had been steered to projects through March 24, the CPA told Congress. Only $1 billion actually has been spent, the authority's inspector general told congressional aides. In January, the provisional authority had said it had planned to spend nearly $8 billion during the first six months of this fiscal year.

The first round of rebuilding funds, about $4.5 billion, focused on rebuilding the electricity grid, restoring the flow of oil, Iraq's main source of revenue, and fixing schools and hospitals.

In a recent report, occupation officials warned Congress that security, project management and logistics expenses may "reduce slightly" the level of funding for reconstruction, but that they were still working with the Office of Management and Budget to determine how much money would be moved.

So far, occupation officials have reassigned $184 million appropriated for drinking water projects to fund the operations of the U.S. Embassy after the provisional authority is dissolved June 30. An additional $29 million from projects such as "democracy building" was reallocated to fund the U.S. development agency's administrative expenses.

And more diversions may be coming. Armitage said the State Department still faces a shortfall of $40 million to $60 million in embassy operating funds this year. And embassy construction and operations could consume as much as $2.5 billion in fiscal year 2005, none of which has been requested by President Bush.

"The first time there's talk of a supplemental (appropriations bill), we'll be up here early and often," Armitage told House members. Until then, he said, State will have to rely on its authority under last year's Iraqi aid law to divert as much as 10percent of the aid -- $1.84 billion -- into overhead. In addition, the provisional authority, which was allocated $858 million for operating expenses, can spend up to an additional 1 percent of the total funding on itself.

The shift of money already has raised objections from Capitol Hill and fueled worries that it could undermine the U.S. government's position with the Iraqi people.

Administration officials said the money was taken from drinking water projects because such projects have been allocated $2.8 billion through 2005, of which only $14 million has been channeled to projects.

They said they felt it would be easier to take the full $184 million they were allowed to shift to provisional authority expenses from one place, rather than siphoning off smaller amounts from various accounts.

"We worked with Congress to develop a package of options to ensure the embassy would have needed resources," said White House budget office spokesman Chad Kolton.

"We are continuing to work with Capitol Hill as the process moves forward."

And one note. Bush says that the tortures commited on Iraqi prisoners all over Iraq were the acts of a few. Well, that´s hard to explain if you see the quantity of photos and videos that pop up from every hole now. Last week we knew about around 1000 photos, by the end of theweek we knew about additional 2000 photos and videos. How can this be the actions of a few then ?

Did they timewarp through Iraq to do that quantity of abuses and tortures and the corresponding pictures ?

Or can it be that these were not just some isolated cases as Bush tries to make it look right now. The ICRC report tells a very different language, but I assume they are euro-commies also, right ?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Care to explain how my gouverment actions has anything to do with our discussion starting from the point where you insulted me of being against your country?I see absolutley no corelation.

Or did you want to start a cockfight between our two gouverments?Do you even know who is the president in my country and what are our policies,and where he have sent peace keeping soldiers?IMO you have to know that before you accuse it of sitting aside watching the show unveil.Your question was just begging for an "Atleast my president was ellected by a majority of citizens,and hasn`t lied to its population to start a brutal illegal war,defying the UN" type of answer.

care to explain why i'm getting reply's from you, after you stated that there won't be anymore discussion?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]And one note. Bush says that the tortures commited on Iraqi prisoners all over Iraq were the acts of a few. Well, that´s hard to explain if you see the quantity of photos and videos that pop up from every hole now. Last week we knew about around 1000 photos, by the end of theweek we knew about additional 2000 photos and videos. How can this be the actions of a few then ?

Did they timewarp through Iraq to do that quantity of abuses and tortures and the corresponding pictures ?

Or can it be that these were not just some isolated cases as Bush tries to make it look right now. The ICRC report tells a very different language, but I assume they are euro-commies also, right ?

Were did you get that number from?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11413-2004May8_4.html

Quote[/b] ]

The Post obtained a series of digital photographs that were taken by MPs. Scattered among the hundreds of travelogue images of Iraq were some depicting prisoner abuse, most of them stamped with dates. The earliest of the abuse pictures, stamped Oct. 17, shows a naked man handcuffed to a cell door. A photograph of a naked man handcuffed to a cot with women's underwear stretched over his head was stamped Oct. 18. A photograph of Pfc. Lynndie R. England holding a chain or strap that is wrapped around the neck of a naked man outside a cell was stamped Oct. 24. A picture of a pile of naked men was stamped Oct. 25.

[Balschoiw 0]

Well Rumsfeld said it in front of the comission.

[denoir 0]

Rumsfeld said it. I don't recall if he said that there were 'hundreds' or 'thousands' of abuse photos and several videos. He said that it would get worse in the media before it got better and that we so far only have seen a fraction of the abuse photos.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well Rumsfeld said it in front of the comission.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/may2004/a050704e.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive/2004/May/07-507517.html

Can you find thousands photos in the testimony?

Quote[/b] ]Second, the individuals who took the photos took many more.

[Warin 0]

It isn't so much the NUMBER of photos that I concern myself with. To me, it is what is in the photos.

It is very distressing to me that Rummy says that there aer not only MORE photos and video, but of a more sadistic nature.

And I couldnt believe he said that it wasnt the media breaking this story, but the defence department. The very same guys that asked CBS to sit on the story, for fear of what it would do to public opinion.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Not even the pictures concern me. I was expecting that sort of scandal. Actually I am happy that those pictures were published, if not then I would have known that it happens with all groups agreeing it would be justified. What concerns me is the following

Quote[/b] ]I didn't hear, or see much from the Arab world while Saddam was filling mass graves.

What we have here today is purely an abuse, not torture--but I don't have all the facts...really don't care much about the facts either.

There's a double-standard at work here...Iraqi scum can brutalize, rape, murder etc without much condemnation...we on the other hand put woman's panties on an Iraqi prisoner and the world goes ape shee-it

Rank:  E-3 Lance Corporal

Service:  Marine Corps

Status:  Other Family Member

or

Quote[/b] ]They are fairly light skinned and awful big to be iraqi prisoners. Secondly if they did strip these guys down naked it was proly for some sort of medical check or possibly a bath, ever think of that. Third, if there were 25 prisoner deaths that means we only got what 700 more to go before we equal their cowardly acts that took the lifes of U.S. troops. Last but not least look at what they did to Jessica Lynch, the Itailian hostage they killed, and the mutilation of 4 contractors hanging from a bridge. This isnt even debatable.

Rank:  E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class

Service:  Coast Guard

Status:  Active Duty

or

Quote[/b] ]Gee? I got locked up once by the county. They striped me and made me bend over and ordered me to grab my azz cheeks and spread them.

I just realized I was tortured. Boo Hoo.

Now I have something in common with someone that has had parts of his or her bodies burnt off/ cut off. Limbs twisted and broken. Eyes plucked out and hot coals dropped into the sockets. Or watched their wife or children get gang xxx.

Rank:  E-6 Staff SGT/Specialist 6

Service:  Army

Status:  Veteran/Prior Service

or

Quote[/b] ]These are prisoners we are talking about. If they had the chance they would kill Americans. And even more will be killed due to Ben Ladin's Gold promise for killing Americans. It really makes me mad, as a Viet Nam Veteran, to see our President apologize for humiliating the prisoners, all we did is take pictures of them, back in Viet Nam we would have shot them. This is just why I am voting for Kerry and not Bush. I'm a disabled Vet who thinks interrogation is within our right to treat these prisoners as we need to , gaining information. The CIA does a lot worse, believe me.

This is war, they are covered under the Geneva Convention just as we are, they didn't look harmed, we had them pose for pictures, and didn't even show their faces, just their asses. In Viet Nam, we would have made them dig graves and line them up, then shot one to make the others talk. It's a war, these are terrorist, who cares about their rights, prisoners here in the USA are treated worse in our prisons.

Rank:  E-5 Sergeant/Specialist 5

Service:  Army

Status:  Veteran/Prior Service

or maybe this

Quote[/b] ]The ones who done the deed are responsible, not any of the rest of us, it is disgusting to apologize for the whole nation.

The Iraqi people should be apologizing to the American people for not stepping up to the plate after the liberation. For not doing their part on catching the insurgents and terrorists.

If you want I can go on and on. If you want I can put down about 1024 comments here posted on the official Military forum of he United States Army!

oh and before I forget it

Quote[/b] ]Another tempest in a tea cup. I could give a damn if Iraqi prisoners were mistreated. OK, someone blew the whistle, and some of our evil-doers got caught. It's just side-show B.S. that's taking the focus off of what's important.

Fine, make a quick public display of them, hang them out to dry (especially that smirking, little b^tch with the 'thumbs up'), and move on to crush all resistance.

Make it personal. You set of a bomb or shoot a soldier, when we find you or identify you we will execute your family: all of it.

Rank: O-3 Lieutenant

Service: Navy

[python3 0]

its really sad cuz they think that everyone in jail has been charged as an insurgent or terrorist. I dont think that they realize that the vast majority of those people in the prison get released a few months after their ordeal. Many ar harmed and then sent home with letters of apologies. That is sad and pathetic.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

such as the people giving interviews to CNN right now. Dont forget that many were brought into these prisons because they were 17+ (age) and at the wrong place at the wrong time!

[python3 0]

such as the people giving interviews to CNN right now. Dont forget that many were brought into these prisons because they were 17+ (age) and at the wrong place at the wrong time!

yes absolutely, but it is covenient for many americans to brush that off as liberal propganda,arabs are all terrorists etc. Ignorance is widespread here in the US.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]yes absolutely, but it is covenient for many americans to brush that off as liberal propganda,arabs are all terrorists etc. Ignorance is widespread here in the US.

Ignorance is global and widespread.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]its really sad cuz they think that everyone in jail has been charged as an insurgent or terrorist. I dont think that they realize that the vast majority of those people in the prison get released a few months after their ordeal. Many ar harmed and then sent home with letters of apologies. That is sad and pathetic.

That is not true. I cannot remember the article but good ole' criminals are in there too.

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119423,00.html

Quote[/b] ]No Bronze Stars for MP Brigade

Sunday, May 09, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The prisoner abuse scandal has so tarnished the Army's 800th Military Police Brigade that soldiers slated to receive an Army Bronze Star medal (search) have been dropped from the list, the brigade's commander, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski (search), said Sunday.

Quote[/b] ]

Karpinski's subordinates at Abu Ghraib at times disregarded her commands, and didn't enforce codes on wearing uniforms and saluting superiors, which added to the lax standards that prevailed at the prison, said one member of the 800th MP Brigade (search).

The soldier, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said commanders in the field routinely ignored Karpinski's orders, saying they didn't have to listen to her because she was a woman.

Quote[/b] ]

"I was supposed to get one and so were others. (The recommendations) were downgraded and subsequently kicked out," he said. "There's a stigma of belonging to the 800th. You don't deserve any medals. Everybody thinks it's the 800th that's guilty of these crimes, when it's a subordinate unit."

Quote[/b] ]

"I'm ashamed that I was with them," the text on the site says. "But I will agree with one thing: the unit was very dysfunctional. From the HHC, to S2, S3 and S4 shops," or the brigade's headquarters command, intelligence, operations and supply sections.

Quote[/b] ]

The general, who works as a business consultant in civilian life, said low morale inside the brigade and at Abu Ghraib was no secret. Soldiers "spoke openly about their concerns" to visiting members of Congress and other high-level visitors. Those included occupation chief L. Paul Bremer, U.N.'s top Iraq official Sergio Vieira de Mello, who was killed in a bombing last August, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

Quote[/b] ]

The vast majority of the soldiers in the 800th MP Brigade and its subordinate units served without incident in Iraq. Taguba's report reserves special commendations for two battalions within the 800th that operated well, "with little or no guidance from the 800th MP Brigade."

Quote[/b] ]

Taguba found the 744th MP Battalion and its commander Lt. Col. Dennis McGlone smoothly ran the prison that holds the top figures of Saddam Hussein's regime -- including perhaps the deposed leader himself. The 530th MP Battalion under Lt. Col. Stephen Novotny also did a good job operating the detention camp northeast of Baghdad holding some 2,000 members of the Mujahedeen Khalq, an Iranian guerrilla group opposed to Tehran's clerical regime.

Quote[/b] ]

"If I put on my resume that I was with the 800th MPs, I probably wouldn't get a job," he complained. "It's gotten bad enough to make people suspect that I did something."

[brgnorway 0]

What's your point Billybob?

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq — The prisoner abuse scandal has so tarnished the Army's 800th Military Police Brigade that soldiers slated to receive an Army Bronze Star medal (search) have been dropped from the list, the brigade's commander, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski (search), said Sunday.

You want us to feel sorry for them?

Quote[/b] ]Karpinski's subordinates at Abu Ghraib at times disregarded her commands, and didn't enforce codes on wearing uniforms and saluting superiors, which added to the lax standards that prevailed at the prison, said one member of the 800th MP Brigade (search).

The soldier, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said commanders in the field routinely ignored Karpinski's orders, saying they didn't have to listen to her because she was a woman.

Again, what's your point - are you trying to excuse her or US army? Who is responsible to run the prisons do you think?

Quote[/b] ]"If I put on my resume that I was with the 800th MPs, I probably wouldn't get a job," he complained. "It's gotten bad enough to make people suspect that I did something."

LOL - poor fellow!

The reason why this doesn't go well with the sentiment in Europe has to do with rather traumatic experiences from second world war - that's why we have museums

Ĺrlig mřte med fangeleirens krigsgufs (article in Bergens Tidende, a norwegian newspaper)

[MLF 0]

no hes trying to point out that not every MP in the 800th is one of the scumbags who were doing thiws sort of thing, yea i do feel sorry for that person who has probally put alot into his job but because of a few will be tarnished, also you cannot compare what happeend in WWII to whats happened/Happenning in GWII

[Balschoiw 0]

Oh my god !

They don´t get the Bronze stars !

So what ?!?`

Is this important ?

Im leaning back this week. Congress will get additional hundreds of photos from pentagon like Rumsfeld and Pentagon officials and the senators already said. So these are pentagon photos only. I bet there are more of them that pentagon doesn´t know about. They will be sold to mainstream media the next days and weeks and some people will make good money with it. The positive aspect of this will be that we will be able to see a nearly complete picture of torture in Iraq that does not just include some 6 or 7 soldiers but a lot more of them. The incidents are also not linked to Abu Ghraib only but show a system behind them. A system that has been invented by US military planners and given a go from governmental persons. We will see all that, watch some videos, read the New Yorker to see more pics and find out that these acts were not the acts from a few but was an established system of torture in Iraq.

We have all the proof we need already, the ICRC report, the ICRC claims that they talked to Powell and Bremer about the terrible situation in January and last year. We have Iraqi government members who report that they have been talking to Bremer last year about that all and he didn´t react, we have a minister of defence who does not know who´s the end of the chain of command when it comes to torture in Iraq, and finally we have Cheney who still backs him, speaking of the best minister of defence the USA ever had...

Well you judge.

You judge if these were single actions like your president says or it was an established system like all the investigators and non-governmental organizations and parts of the Iraqi government say.

You judge.

But it doesn´t surprise me much that patriotsm tends to blind some when we look at the recent speeches of Cheney

where he still alleges Saddam with AQ (in 2004) and 60 percent of the USA citizens still believe that the war is part of the revenge for 9/11.

Nothing coming from the public opinion in the USA surprises me anymore.

Even during the comission hearing Rumsfeld brought up the AQ shit again, although it was totally displaced.

One senator was at least smart enough to question him if all prisoners that are held in prisons right now are AQ terrorists.

Well Rumsfeld hade to say no, but again his claims of AQ and Iraq will remain in the heads of those who still think Iraq is linked to 9/11, and that´s exactly what Rumsfeld wanted to achieve.

It´s disgusting to see that live manipulation. And it´s even more disgusting that it seems to work for parts of the US population.

I will lean back as I said. I will count the pictures that will pop up this week and watch the US muppet show with their funny claims over and over again.

Don´t miss it. Now playing in your theater:

The team for 2004 any beyond

featuring the most competent president you will ever get:

sided by the most competent intelligence people we could find:

Wake up. This is no TV serial, but real life.

[MLF 0]

I will lean back as I said. I will count the pictures that will pop up this week and watch the US muppet show with their funny claims over and over again.

Don´t miss it. Now playing in your theater:

Quote[/b] ]Oh my god !

They don´t get the Bronze stars !

So what ?!?`

Is this important ?

No its not that he does not get a Bronze Star but the fact that his unit has been tarnished by the acts of a few of its members and that those who deserved a commendation for the there service will not be recognised for it.

Quote[/b] ]Congress will get additional hgundreds of photos from pentagon like Rumsfeld and Pentagon officials and the senators already said. So these are pentagon photos only. I bet there are more that pentagon doesn´t know about.

okay so its hundreds now, good, now that we have that sorted we can move on.

Quote[/b] ]The positive aspect of this will be that we will be able to see a nearly complete picture of torture in Iraq that does not just include some 6 or 7 soldiers but a lot more of them. The incidents are also not linked to Abu Ghraib only but show a system behind them. A system that has been invented by US military planners and given a go from governmental persons.

Source please? where have you seen that the formation of man pyramids have bee given a go ahead by the high officials such as senators and Military Planners?

Quote[/b] ]We will see all that, watch some videos, read the New Yorker to see more pics and find out that these acts were not the acts from a few but was an established system of torture in Iraq.

So your saying that in mission briefings given to ground troops the use of torture was allowed?

Quote[/b] ]We have all the proof we need already, the ICRC report, the ICRC claims that they talked to Powell and Bremer about the terrible situation in January and last year.

IIRC all Reports by the ICRC are confidential, they do not talk about the specifics of any case so they remain independant, yes this abuse was happening back in spring last year, but IIRC they have been/being dealt with, it takes time to investigate claims such as these.

Quote[/b] ]We have Iraqi governmet members who reort that they have been talking to Bremer last year about that all and he didn´t react

Erm im pretty sure all those in the pictures where detained and the situation in the prison was investigated, you cannot complete an investigation in a day.

Quote[/b] ]we have a minister of defence who does not know who´s the end of the chain of command when it comes to torture in Iraq, ánd finally we have Cheney who still backs him

He as already stated that the buck stopped with him, also Cheney has no option but to back him up, they are in the same party, thats how politics works.

Quote[/b] ]Well you judge. You judge if these were single actions like your president says or it was an established system like all the investigators and non-governmental organizations and parts of the Iraqi government say.

Please tell me where it says that this abuse was given the go ahead by the Military planners and high up senators?

Quote[/b] ]It´s disgusting to see that live manipulation. And it´s even more disgusting that it seems to work for parts of the US population.

Manipulation happens in every country by there politicians, mine yours, the USA it does not matter what country.

[theavonlady 2]

The reason why this doesn't go well with the sentiment in Europe has to do with rather traumatic experiences from second world war - that's why we have museums

It would appear that your museums teach you to sterotype entire groups of people because of the acts of a few.

Seems that Europe hasn't learned much anything from the second World War, at least according to your equations.

[Balschoiw 0]

Parts of the ICRC report where released in the Financial Times, also the report was made public friday last week.

The ICRC decided to do that because the differences between the things TBA said and what ICRC knew and did afterwards were that big. That´s why they published it.

Quote[/b] ]No its not that he does not get a Bronze Star but the fact that his unit has been tarnished by the acts of a few of its members and that those who deserved a commendation for the there service will not be recognised for it.

Oh so all the bystanders on the pics didn´t know there was torture going on ?

Not acting is supporting.

Quote[/b] ]okay so its hundreds now, good, now that we have that sorted we can move on.

NO it hundreds of officially known photos. As I said there will be more to come from non-official sources. People want to make money.

Quote[/b] ]Source please? where have you seen that the formation of man pyramids have bee given a go ahead by the high officials such as senators and Military Planners?

Hoew could those things in that mass happen without general approval for it ?

How could all that preparations for inquiries be single cases only ?

ICRC stated that there was a scheme and a system behind it, so does AI and HRW and even people who participated.

They all have to be wrong, right ?

Let´s wait and see what the comission finds...

Quote[/b] ]So your saying that in mission briefings given to ground troops the use of torture was allowed?

I didn´t say that, did I ?

Use of force was obviously allowed at prisons and POW camps.

Do we have to discuss this or can we just state that, taking into account what we have seen the last weeks ?

Quote[/b] ]IIRC all Reports by the ICRC are confidential

See above.

Quote[/b] ]you cannot complete an investigation in a day.

To stop things that are against the geneva convention or have a deeper look into these claims you don´t have to start a roundup investigations. There were numerous reports of abuse, torture and killing of unarmed prisoners. Abu Ghraib isn´t that far to go to from Baghdad. So why didn´t Bremer send a delegation to the prisone when he was told from ICRC, AI, HRW, and members of the interim governing council that people get tortured there ?

Why did he not react ?

Maybe you can answer me that question then.

It has nothing to do with a big investigation, as these claims were there right from the beginning of the war. First warnings and reports from the ICRC came in march 2003

And investigations started in january 2004

I don´t have an appropriate answer for this but I´m looking forward to yours.

Quote[/b] ]Erm im pretty sure all those in the pictures where detained

Those were private pictures, not official ones. Yes the militaries wanted to lock them away, that´s where you are right. Unfortunally CBS broadcated them...

Quote[/b] ]they are in the same party

Hmm well does that exclude him from serving the people of the country who voted and pay him ?

What is his duty ?

To protect his party - brother or work for the people of the USA ?

You decide.

Quote[/b] ]Please tell me where it says that this abuse was given the go ahead by the Military planners and high up senators?

We´ll see. What we know right now, by having an eye on the ICRC report and the AI and HRW reports we have learned that those things didn´t happen in Abu Ghraib only.

And did I say that senators gave their OK ? NO , I DIDNT SAY THAT. Wouldn´t make much sense anyway, as they are the last to know such things as it seems right now.

Quote[/b] ]Manipulation happens in every country by there politicians, mine yours, the USA it does not matter what country.

Sure, no discussion abou that. But the efforts to betray public are outstanding in the US right now, don´t you think ?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]No its not that he does not get a Bronze Star but the fact that his unit has been tarnished by the acts of a few of its members and that those who deserved a commendation for the there service will not be recognised for it.

Oh so all the bystanders on the pics didn´t know there was torture going on ?  

Not acting is supporting.

Maybe some elementary facts are in order.

The US Army's 800th Military Police Brigade consists of 2,800 soldiers, operating 12 prisons and detention camps across Iraq, including Abu Ghraib.

So are you saying there were 2,785 bystanders in the pictures?

The entire brigade did not act because only a small percentage of them were involved.