The Iraq thread 3

[ralphwiggum 6]

previous(Iraq thread #2) thread

please continue discussion here. 300 pages are not easy to shuffle through thesedays.

[shinRaiden 0]

So the US is trying to rig the elections to prevent the Shiites from rigging the elections, while clamping down on Sunni rigging of the elections, and likely writing off the kurdish elections, and the Iranians are looking to slip under the shiite nose and rig the elction their way, and I suppose that the syrians have their interests in the NW and the turks to the north, and the Kuwaiti's probably are bribing the british to take care of things in the south. The next world series is probably easier to call at this point. C'mon Iraqi supreme court, show us some chads.

Anybody want to take a stab as to how long the first president will last, or will he be shown the 'Pierre Gemayal door' like Lebanon?

[theavonlady 2]

I mentioned this on the previous Iraq thread:

Quote[/b] ]Iraq to Probe Alleged Saddam Oil Bribes

Tue Jan 27, 9:01 AM ET

By Khaled Yacoub Oweis

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq plans to investigate allegations that dozens of officials and businessmen worldwide illegally received oil in exchange for supporting former leader Saddam Hussein, officials said Tuesday.

Their statements came after al-Mada, an independent Baghdad newspaper, published a list it said was based on oil ministry documents showing 46 individuals, companies and organizations from inside and outside Iraq who were given millions of barrels of oil.

I found the details of the al-Mada report in English here.

So much oil down the drain.

Most interesting read, IMO.

[denoir 0]

Not very interesting. Sounds like a load of unsubstantiated crap to me.

Not that I don't think such an arrangement would be impossible, but the way this is presented and by whom it is presented.  Al-Mada is also the news source that blames water and electricity shortages in Baghdad on Israeli agents...

Furthermore, the claims are contradictory. On one hand it claims that the bribes were lobbying for removing the sanctions while at the same time they say that Saddam didn't give a damn about the sanctions. Also, the abundance of Russian companies and officials on the list blasts its credibility. The harsh sanctions against Iraq were Russia's idea and the Russian economy was highly dependant on the oil-for-food program to help compensate for production quotas that Russian companies weren't able to deliver. The very economic survival of companies like Yukos depended on the oil-for-food program, and we're talking about much more than 2 million barrels here.

And third, the very obvious part is the form. You don't bribe people with barrels of oil. There would be difficult to find a more lousy way to bribe somebody. Obviously the payment could not be made in oil (Delivery for mr Galloway! Shall we put the million barrels in the garage or in the hallway?). Therefor it would make an enormous paper-trail as the oil would have to be shipped, sold and the money delivered.

Fourth, there is a lot of documented cases of Saddam trying to bribe UN inspectors. Not with oil, but with the usual stuff - presents for the family, booze and hookers. The normal type of bribes. It's unlikely that he would abandon a difficult to trace method to one that is as subtle as an elephant in a china shop.

Fifth: We suddenly trust in documents produced by Saddam? (Not that those documents have been presented anyway). Ever considered that it might be one of his traditional plans to create discord and mistrust within the camp of his enemies?

Conclusion: You'd have to be a mentally retarded squirrel to take these accusations remotely seriously. (Which is coincidentally what I think most members of the IGC are)

Saddam bribing foreign officials would not be strange, but hardly in this way.

[theavonlady 2]

Not very interesting. Sounds like a load of unsubstantiated crap to me.

And this is based on.............................................

Quote[/b] ]Not that I don't think such an arrangement would be impossible, but the way this is presented and by whom it is presented. Al-Mada is also the news source that blames water and electricity shortages in Baghdad on Israeli agents...

/avon reads thread while floating in private pool, with the halogen floodlights on max

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, the claims are contradictory. On one hand it claims that the bribes were lobbying for removing the sanctions while at the same time they say that Saddam didn't give a damn about the sanctions.

That's not a contradiction. There's lots more money possible if sanctions could be removed. The bribes are chicken feed in comparison.

Quote[/b] ]Also, the abundance of Russian companies and officials on the list blasts its credibility. The harsh sanctions against Iraq were Russia's idea and the Russian economy was highly dependant on the oil-for-food program to help compensate for production quotas that Russian companies weren't able to deliver. The very economic survival of companies like Yukos depended on the oil-for-food program, and we're talking about much more than 2 million barrels here.

Sounds like the old Russian doublecross. Someone would prefer to line their personal pockets with more cash than they would receive in being a good citizen. That's what bribes are all about.

Quote[/b] ]And third, the very obvious part is the form. You don't bribe people with barrels of oil.

Try me! :P

Quote[/b] ]There would be difficult to find a more lousy way to bribe somebody. Obviously the payment could not be made in oil (Delivery for mr Galloway! Shall we put the million barrels in the garage or in the hallway?). Therefor it would make an enormous paper-trail as the oil would have to be shipped, sold and the money delivered.

Maybe they get their cut from the delivered money? That's how I understood it.

Quote[/b] ]Fourth, there is a lot of documented cases of Saddam trying to bribe UN inspectors. Not with oil, but with the usual stuff - presents for the family, booze and hookers.

Just goes to show you how cheap it is to pay off UN personnel.

[theavonlady 2]

Not very interesting. Sounds like a load of unsubstantiated crap to me.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....9162110

Quote[/b] ]The Iraqi oil ministry has confirmed that the documents are authentic.

[denoir 0]

Not very interesting. Sounds like a load of unsubstantiated crap to me.

And this is based on.............................................

Having more than one brain cell? Common sense? Critical thinking? Take your pick.

Quote[/b] ]

The Iraqi oil ministry has confirmed that the documents are authentic.

Read my opinion about the IGC (the part about retarded squirrels).

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Iraqi oil ministry has confirmed that the documents are authentic.

Funny...how much Iraqui employees does the oil ministry have again ?

I was not able to countercheck the funny story at any other major news page. It has the same credibility as the "French are hiding saddams WMD´s under the Eiffel tower" report that came from the same origin.

Relevant news:

Condi Rice talks of "flaws"

Quote[/b] ]"I think that what we have is evidence that there are differences between what we knew going in and what we found on the ground," Ms Rice told CBS television.

Haha differences ?!?

Quote[/b] ]But she brushed aside calls for an independent inquiry into the intelligence in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq last March.

It should be the vital interest of the TBA to inquire the reasons that led to a war and got a lot of US people killed.

Credibility ? none.

Bush himself must be living under a rock these days as he still tells that he is confident in finding WMD´s in Iraq. Liar !

Quote[/b] ]Former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, she said, was a dangerous man in a dangerous part of the world and it had been time to do something about the threat he posed.

Aha ! Now this justifies the war !

IMO this is the first part of the TBA slightly giving in their WMD claims. But the way they do it is betrayal again and just a joke.

Talk of betraying the world, going to war, talk of mass murder, talk of souveranity, talk of a complete administration ready to use the eject button, talk of the biggest lie with biggest consequences to world stability in the last 20 years.

Talk of the USA as an incompetent war - starter.

That´s what is the facts.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]dangerous man in a dangerous part of the world

lol that sounds damn funny  

Maybe next he's evil man in the sinister part of the world ;)

[JP226 0]

I have a qestion, how come if it goes against france or germany or someone you guys seem to support, it is called unsubstantiated crap

after learning what is going on it seems bush and cheney were the only ones weren't in on the oil huh?

maybe france russia and germany were against the war because they were losing out on pretty good oil prices or because they are trying to get a one up on america after all everyne hates the rich kid on the block

what i don't truely understand is what justifies stopping a madman? saddam had the ingredients, the missle technology infact his missles were fitted for bio and chem delivery he had the instructions on how to put it all together and finally he had a motive, insanity does he have to push the button for you to say he's a bad guy let's get him? hell what if i was one of the people that had to die for you to say let's get him

right after 9/11 people were screaming and pointing fingures on how we could have stopped this before happening, this time we stop it before what could have happened and people scream you're horrible you are wrong because some french german or russian government official can't fill his greedy pockets with cheap deals on oil from saddam

[JP226 0]

ps why were the iraqis using french german and russian weapons against us after the UN imposed sanctions on saddam? were the french breaking the law?

I can here you now saying the US did the same thing that is how they did/didn't get their weapons that do and don't exist of mass destruction, well i can expalin that, when you have to stop an two evils it is better to ally yourself with the lesser to stop the greter then you finish off the lesser down the road, example: stalin, britain france and america allied with stalin to stop hitler then the cold war brought the russians to their knees America, unlike france germany and russia didn't sell the bad things to make a buck they sold it to stop a greater threat

i'm glad you guys like to tear apart the american's argument, but to stay consistent and "even" handed like you portray, please break down the other sides "argument" as well thx

[denoir 0]

maybe france russia and germany were against the war because they were losing out on pretty good oil prices or what

Of course France, Germany & others were against the war because of their economic interests. However not starting a war out of self-interest is far more better than starting a war out of self-interest.

Quote[/b] ]

because they are trying to get a one up on america after all everyne hates the rich kid on the block

Or the other way around as the Euro is the strongest currency in the world, not the dollar. So exactly who the "rich kid on the block" is, is rather questionable. If you mean "the bully" on the block, then I think you are right. International unity is important so that states with itchy trigger fingers don't start pointless wars. USA's refusal to play by the rules obviously led to a lot of opposition.

Quote[/b] ]saddam had the ingredients, the missle technology infact his missles were fitted for bio and chem delivery he had the instructions on how to put it all together and finally he had a motive, insanity does he have to push the button for you to say he's a bad guy let's get him? hell what if i was one of the people that had to die for you to say let's get him

No he didn't. Let's take that again: No he didn't. As it turns out, he did not have any WMD or any infrastructure to build WMD. Even the Bush Administration have started admitting that.

Quote[/b] ]right after 9/11 people were screaming and pointing fingures on how we could have stopped this before happening

Stopped what from happening? Saddam giving WMD he didn't have to terrorsts he had no connection with to attack USA who he had no interest in?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]maybe france russia and germany were against the war because they were losing out on pretty good oil prices or because they are trying to get a one up on america after all everyne hates the rich kid on the block

or that the rich kid had some less-than-average intelligence and thought it would be nice to go on about business his way after getting some wierd internretation of events that happened to him.

here are some fun news that we had in the past

1. French gave passport to Saddam just before fall of baghdad. => false

2.French missiles made in 2000 were found =>false

3.The mortars containing WMDs were found => false.

given those 3 and above, it's painfully clear that stories that are around are mostly gibberish. Fortunately(or maybe unfortunately) most accusations against TBA is based on what TBA claimed, such as WMD's existence and AQ link.

Quote[/b] ]what i don't truely understand is what justifies stopping a madman? saddam had the ingredients, the missle technology infact his missles were fitted for bio and chem delivery he had the instructions on how to put it all together and finally he had a motive, insanity does he have to push the button for you to say he's a bad guy let's get him? hell what if i was one of the people that had to die for you to say let's get him

if he wanted to do that, he'd have done that in first gulf war, or give AQ WMD already.

Quote[/b] ]right after 9/11 people were screaming and pointing fingures on how we could have stopped this before happening, this time we stop it before what could have happened and people scream you're horrible you are wrong because some french german or russian government official can't fill his greedy pockets with cheap deals on oil from saddam

how about this? i ban you for possible future flaming? i've seen plenty of arguments like yours and those tend to goto flamefest anyway.

Quote[/b] ]ps why were the iraqis using french german and russian weapons against us after the UN imposed sanctions on saddam? were the french breaking the law?

international arms trade has no boundaries. same thing is done with US gov't. just look at Iran-Contra. note that those muslim extremists in Indonesia are equipped with M16s. maybe TBA is supporting them?

Quote[/b] ]i'm glad you guys like to tear apart the american's argument, but to stay consistent and "even" handed like you portray, please break down the other sides "argument" as well thx

i don't see you do that for TBA's argument either.

anyways, back on the oil thingy.

i read some news and my evaluation is that it's more of list of 'how much we will pay for being non-opponent' deal. in case any of the recipients are asking for Iraq's feed back, this would have been the guideline of how much it would be paid.

[toadeater 0]

Anybody want to take a stab as to how long the first president will last, or will he be shown the 'Pierre Gemayal door' like Lebanon?

Only a despot like Saddam could unite Iraq because Iraq is an artificial state created out of groups of people who didn't want anything to do with each other. Pretty much anyone else will be blown up shortly after taking office.

"Ladies and gentlemen, the president of Iraq... "

*BOOM*

"Ladies and gentlemen, the vice president of Iraq... "

*BOOM*

" ...and now, we will have a short intermission while we prepare a new election."

Iraq isn't ready for "Democracy" yet because Iraqis have no intention of being Democratic, they're only looking to seize power for their own faction.

I'm betting that civil war is going to be the only thing that comes out of it. Maybe NATO will get involved, we'll see.

<-- The Great $atan

[JP226 0]

Rich kid, ok this is rediculous, where i'm from richer you are means the more wealth you have not the value of your currency or what have you heh

American GNP is around 10 trillion dollars vs all of the major european economic powerhouses combined is somewhat less than 8 trillion with italy france germany and england all equally worth around 2 trillion

that was easy

Ok so as for the the wmds you are telling me that saddma had no idea how to make them or how to deliver them or anything like that? what were those rocket looking things broadcasted all over the world al su-what?  

as for knowledge on how to make them America did give him the weapons to figt Iran do you really think he didn't take them apart and study them so i dunno maybe he could make more? no one is admitting that saddam didn't have the capability and know how they are admitting that he didn't have the stockpiles thought in fact here is a link to a transcript form the kay report

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news....xt.html

now i know it isn't the BBC but it'll have to do hehehe  

[JP226 0]

and to wiggum, oliver north went on tv with a homemade camera in iraq and filmed the weapons in the depots from france germany and russia for millions to see

[hellfish6 7]

Oliver North - a beacon of honesty and international justice.

[denoir 0]

Rich kid, ok this is rediculous, where i'm from richer you are means the more wealth you have not the value of your currency or what have you heh

American GNP is around 10 trillion dollars vs all of the major european economic powerhouses combined is somewhat less than 8 trillion with italy france germany and england all equally worth around 2 trillion

that was easy

Actually, the EU GDP was in 2002 8.56 trillion euros = 10.7 trillion dollars (today's exchange value) [source]. With the additional 10 countries joining in now, it's going to rise with at least a quarter more.

Quote[/b] ]Ok so as for the the wmds you are telling me that saddma had no idea how to make them or how to deliver them or anything like that? what were those rocket looking things broadcasted all over the world al su-what?  

What rocket-looking things? And he certainly never had the capability or know-how to buld intercontinental rockets that could reach USA.

The point still being, he didn't have any. He had dismantled his WMD program.

Quote[/b] ]as for knowledge on how to make them America did give him the weapons to figt Iran do you really think he didn't take them apart and study them so i dunno maybe he could make more? no one is admitting that saddam didn't have the capability and know how they are admitting that he didn't have the stockpiles

He didn't have the stockpiles because he chose to dismantle them and the infrastructure required to build them. South Africa did the same to it's nuclear program and you don't see anybody invading them.

Not the mention that in fact the US is the single largest owner of chemical and nuclear stockpiles. And since Bush was as willing to start an illegal war against Iraq as Saddam was willing to start an illegal war against Kuwait, I don't see why I should trust Bush anymore than I trust Saddam.

[ralphwiggum 6]

you mean the same Oliver North who conducted and took fall for Iran-Contra? you don't get it, but when it comes to international arms trade, it goes anywhere. France sells weapon to say Turkey, it goes to Syria, then to Iraq.

if you want accountability of everything that is sold, then you might want to propose repeal of 2nd amendment for that mattter.

[JP226 0]

nice source, Vietnam communist are very up on Economics

[ralphwiggum 6]

how about that you provide proof that US is richer than EU combined?

[JP226 0]

no problem lemme go eat first when i get back i'll have it ready for you

[denoir 0]

nice source, Vietnam communist are very up on Economics

LOL. OK, I didn't pay attention where I was taking it from. Here's a US government source.

Quote[/b] ]e combined economies of the current EU are slightly smaller than the U.S. economy ($9.6 trillion purchasing power parity gross domestic product (GDP) for the EU in 2002 versus $10.1 trillion for the United States), while the EU population of 379 million significantly exceeds the U.S. population of 289 million. With ten new countries expected to join next year, both the EU's population and its combined GDP will grow (The combined GDP of the EU and the 10 accession countries reached an estimated $10.4 trillion in 2002; see Table 1). The United States has extensive trade relations with the EU. In 2002, 21% of U.S. exports ($144 billion) went to EU members, and 19% of U.S. imports ($226 billion) originated in EU countries.

Incidentally $9.6 trillion = 11.2 trillion euros (2002 value) = $14.1 trillion (today's value).  So you see, currency exchange rate does indeed matter.

In 2002 euro/dollar = 0.85 today euro/dollar = 1.25.

So the Vietnamese site was understating the facts.

Even if you take into account that the EU has a larger population:

14.1 trillion/ 390 million = 36,000 USD/capita  (EU)

10.1 trilloon/290 million = 34,000 USD /capita (USA)

The funny thing is that you've had a better economic growth than we, but your currency is free-falling so in the end we end up richer.

Edit: I might add that I myself am a bit surprised. I thought that the US would lead in the GDP/capita category, but obviously not. Interesting.

Btw for a history of currency value lookup: forex currency charts. Select EUR/USD and select a time scale of 1 month/tic.

[Akira 0]

I have a qestion, how come if it goes against france or germany or someone you guys seem to support, it is called unsubstantiated crap

after learning what is going on it seems bush and cheney were the only ones weren't in on the oil huh?

maybe france russia and germany were against the war because they were losing out on pretty good oil prices or because they are trying to get a one up on america after all everyne hates the rich kid on the block

what i don't truely understand is what justifies stopping a madman? saddam had the ingredients, the missle technology infact his missles were fitted for bio and chem delivery he had the instructions on how to put it all together and finally he had a motive, insanity does he have to push the button for you to say he's a bad guy let's get him? hell what if i was one of the people that had to die for you to say let's get him

right after 9/11 people were screaming and pointing fingures on how we could have stopped this before happening, this time we stop it before what could have happened and people scream you're horrible you are wrong because some french german or russian government official can't fill his greedy pockets with cheap deals on oil from saddam

Oh man.....deja vu!

Well...since most everyone agrees now, or semi-agrees, this should make life much more fun for Bals, and Denoir now.

[Placebo 29]

Play nice please people, I'm tired of these pinned threads becoming flamefests, they should be treated as a luxury not a necessity.