Aia mod died !

[dinger 1]

Quote[/b] ]

Legally there is no right to refusal.

Yes there is; it's called copyright, and it does govern stuff distributed for free as well.

Now, you might argue that it's a trivial right, since legally, you're probably not going to get sued, but the legal right is there, and if you go around violating other people's legal rights, you're going to have very few friends.

As for people not sharing, well, it's not always so crystal-clear.

The notion of "glory hogs" is problematic. Let's stick to the example of BAS. I know it annoys a lot of people that BAS could release a 120,000-poly coprolyte addon, based on some turd.p3d model included in the CWC beta release, and people would swear it was the best ever. But they got to where they are today by recruiting highly visible community members and highly talented modmakers. And then they applied rigorous quality control; well, not as rigorous as I'd like to see (*cough* tonal 1.0 campaign *cough*), but ofp players in general know that anything carrying their brand will have a certain level of quality. They do a professional job on that "final ten percent".

Whether they let other people use their stuff is up to them, and I have seen authorized modifications of their models and textures. But every time someone asks for something, they've got to consider how it affects their reputation. Let's take a Tonal East African tree or something. Say someone takes that tree and slaps it in Vietnam. The particular tree may have a certain poly count, and the designers of tonal may have limited its usage to prevent a slideshow. Now someone makes a vietnamese jungle, advertises "BAS textures", people get pissed and BAS suffers. And most addon makers don't have the time or inclination to do quality control on other people's addons. Often a request for goods is followed by a request for free lessons on how to make addons. So "giving something away" very often becomes hours of teaching. (uh-- you know, there are tutorials on these subjects. I've even written a few) We don't always have the time to teach.

It's also timing. As I said before, behind every release there is a small group of people who did the bulk of the work. People generally ask for things as soon as they see them, and most people see stuff when it's released. Right before and right after release is the busiest time for an addonmaker -- bugs are popping up, problems are being dealt with, and so on. Most addonmakers do not need right then the added hassle of dealing with someone borrowing their stuff for other uses.

And it may also be part of the "good of the community" thing. In this case, the OFP world needs more terrain textures, more vegetation and more buildings. These things consistute 95% of the stuff on our screens and thus the bulk of our OFP experience, yet only a few people seem to work on them.

There are also other cases. Collaborative efforts don't generally go one way. Some people seem to think "For the good of the community" means "give me your stuff and I'll take the glory". It doesn't. It means, "let's pool our resources and make something really cool to play with." Collaborative efforts mean making obligations to other persons and groups; that in turn means not collaborating with others. For example, if I've got someone contributing a model to a collaborative project, and I've agreed to include that in a release, I can't turn around and agree to release someone else's model of the same vehicle. I have to politely refuse. Personal commitments must be honored. Likewise, if the project manager is unavailable for months on something we're near completion on, I can't give that project away without authorization; it's not mine to give.

So it's not cut-and-dried. Each case is different, but most of us who do try to work with the community do try to ensure the greatest distribution imaginable.

[CanadianTerror 0]

Why would a team go and set up a project like JAM and then say no to using plants?

[drow 0]

"Likewise, if the project manager is unavailable for months on something we're near completion on, I can't give that project away without authorization; it's not mine to give."

i think it would be ok after Months...

he obviously doesnt give a rats ass about it  

someone better take control or it will become nothing...

and I never meant to start any BAS bashing or anything so lets just leave this topic by giving them their proper respect, they created a great world,

(and all their units and choppers and probably everything they have released is worthy of calling great)

but let them keep those objects to themselves if thats what they want, I respect their wishes.

What more can you do.

[dinger 1]

JAM is a project to promote interfunctionality among mods.  By laying down a standard, and by putting their prestige behind it, BAS contributes to the community by helping different addons work together.

Vegetation is a different matter, but there are lots of good reasons not to share it, and most of those have nothing to do with hogging glory. But such a one-way collaboration often involves additional work for the "donor" and can only hurt the donor's prestige; this prestige isn't simply "glory"; it's what means that person's work will be downloaded in the future. And besides, as was the case here, the plants had nothing to do with vietnam.

It's like asking the maker of an F-5 addon if you can relabel it a MiG-29, put it on the East side, and give you all the credit.

Are you crazy? First, you have to deal with the person who's taking your stuff; without a doubt there will be some config.cpp issue to address.  Then they'll change the context, for example, screwing with the effect scripts and putting in something that brings even the most hardy CPU to a halt on anything but Desert Island.  Then they release it and credit you.  Now people are associating your work with a joke (Hey "Top Gun", nice MiG-29!), and with one that doesn't work well; so when you release an F-15 the next month, you're not taken seriously, and nobody makes missions for your toys, instead preferring the ones released by, say, BAS.

That's contributing to a liability, and that's why addonmakers sometimes prefer working with people whose products they know.

So if someone rejects an offer to collaborate, don't take it personally.  You may be told the reason; you may not. But usually there's a good one beyond simply being a "glory hound".

and as for project managers not caring -- I appreciate the joke, but I know several RL reasons for people taking time off from video games, and many of them have nothing to do with not caring.

[drow 0]

please leave Vietnam out of it now, I will be much happier seeing us make our own plants,

as i posted earlier, i was a young mod leader at the time... eager to get going... frustrated.

I do not want their vegetation

LOL!

we clear?

edit -

"It's like asking the maker of an F-5 addon if you can relabel it a MiG-29, put it on the East side, and give you all the credit."

hey WTF mate!  

i dont need to steal anyones bloody credit!

"So if someone rejects an offer to collaborate, don't take it personally.  You may be told the reason; you may not. But usually there's a good one beyond simply being a "glory hound"."

dude, i cant fucking believe you, i said its best to collaborate with mods who are at the same progresss level as your self, that way, you all benefit...

youre something else man...

...im sick of fighting like this...

im just trying to be a decent guy, give BAS respect, tell everyone that yes its a good idea to collaborate.. what have you twisted it into?

take your implications elsewhere.

[Blake 0]

Of course no team will give out units which it has not released to the public distribution yet. When you release the original first, someone asks it for certain purpose and releases it with new skins/modifications and includes proper credits, there is absolutely no problem with any of the addons. I don't buy this 'name-tarnishing' theory, if people turn out crap from gold the OFP players are perfectly capable of judging which is better by themselves. Has there been any case ever with these thousands of addons that someone has loaned an addon, made it much crappier and released it causing the original work be forgotten or 'tarnished'?

I think people also need valid reason to refuse from a proper application other than just fear of losing precious fame. If someone asks 'I want your plane, I',m going to modify/retexture it and put it to resistance for Everon Freedom Fighter coalition. Fear of loosing fame is much overemphasized comparing to the advantages of sharing models/stuff between mod teams...

[dinger 1]

I wasn't talking about you specifically.  How could I? I know nothing about you, BAS and vegetation. Since it was the example brought out, I was just using it as a case that would would be clear to everyone, and I was responding to people who claimed that there could be no good reason for not collaborating.

The first thing I released publicly in OFP was the old single-player Artillery Simulator thing for 1.46.  Ever since then, I've done stuff as part of a group project, working with a team that itself collaborated with other addon groups. Heck, I am strongly convinced that this is what OFP addonmakers need to do, and try to make working with other groups an integral part of my addon-making strategy. But at the same time, I've seen cases of accusations of theft, of arrogance, of being jerks, of god-knows-what, and that's usually because someone thinks that because we're all working to the same goal, we can freely loan and borrow, and are morally obligated to dedicate ourselves to other peoples' projects, even ones whose vision of OFP we may not share.

The reasons I give have much less to do with your specific case and much more to do with the things I've encountered: I just see no need in naming names. My statements are in response to my esteemed colleague's statement:

Quote[/b] ]

I would agree, as long as the mod that wants to use something from another mod gives credit where appropriate to the mod(s) that they used some material from, there's no logical reason why mods should refuse to share their work.  The only thing it's accomplishing is slowing down the community and holding it back.

There are plenty of good logical reasons, and that's all I'm saying. Sorry if you took the examples personally. I wasn't talking to you, but to those who would agree with the statement just quoted.

[CanadianTerror 0]

@drow

You're doing it again.

[drow 0]

lol

I know, cya guys.

(I'll just leave now.)

[Nagual 0]

I fully agree with this guy.

But everyone i have spoken to with regards to this type of thing has been very cooperative... except for BAS but they have no need to cooperate.

Anyways, I believe people do see that OFP is aging and its a good idea to possibly cooperate with other mods to maximize community talent and resources, its only so called glory hogs or whatever you want to call them that are dead against it, but they did put in their work to get there, and if you got shit all, or nothing they want, why share?

(I am not talking down on BAS in general, I was only stating that I previously was in fact refused rights to use Tonal vegetation, which confused me as a new mod leader, but i understand now how much work goes into this stuff etc. and dont hold it against them.)

Try to cooperate with mods whos level of progress is similar to that of your own.

Then no one has a need to cooperate if they don't. Is that right? How are they different? Sure they make good stuff, there are plenty of others who do. As far as being refused to use Tonal vegetation there is no legal right behind it. It's a matter of integrity and decency. If you are decent enough to ask that's a good thing. Legally there is no right to refusal. It's a matter of respect but I can't quite understand anyone refusing the use of trees?!? If so why release such good addons? It should be open to the community. I can say if anyone wants to use our stuff in their mods go ahead. I'll even send the unbinned models if you are a reputable working and producing mod. If we can save some work for others then good.

uhh, dont really feel like biting today, not here, but a nibble;

Drow, i cant really remember, were you from the team that ?

*Said we took too long to decide, so they said they will use them anway...

or

*had a team member email the same day as the "mod leader" saying "the leader doesnt respect your work or wishes and is already using the stuff..."

or

*sent viruses as a way saying "thanks for the addon"

or

*the person who wanted to put a FEW plants in an addon with the same FILENAME as tonal and release it....

To be honest, something that amuses me, is i reckon i have thought about the plant/veg stuff the LEAST, especially after reading this thread. It didnt take long for me to forget about that funny thing, something about the way real life can be at times all consuming.

But, the few times i have thought about in the past 2-3 months, i have come here to post a "free for all" on the bloody objects (unfinshed objects btw, lol), but every time (about 3) i only had to read a couple of threads to see the anger and plain bitchin still running all over this forum.

It only took no time, each time, for me to forget all about it.

Anyway, dinger, lol, keep up those long posts, pretty good reads.

[BraTTy 0]

I understand what Dinger is saying and I can add to it. Another good example is this:

I couldn't give out my plane because Subfaction textured it and I doubt he would appreciate others basing off his hard work.Not only that, after I allowed another mod to use it,they may not specifically state that the textures are Subfactions,now the next mod that asks for use may ask this last person that I let include in their mod and now credits are getting lost.

Another example of this: even tho my readme and within my webpages is clearly states SEVERAL times that the pilots are supplied by Vibes,so why do people keep asking ME if they can use those pilots ! It clearly states whos they are , but people assume that they are mine and I feel credit is lost where due if people don't realize whos they really are.What if I did say they could use my planes and they assume they can use the pilots too?

Another example: someone is building a plane, I say its ok to use information or parts from mine.They release a buggy hacked up version of my plane, using even same config naming and rendering mine unusable.

Another example: someone asks to use my plane, I don't own the textures and cant be bothered to reach who owns them and haven't heard from them in a while,I say NO, pretty simple

I can understand BAS decision completely

In the user agreement:

Maybe Bis does own the model (what if we didn't model it in O2,only used to import)

But they certainly can't own the textures if you made them and they are owned by the artist that makes them

Everyone knows how open I am and I believe in helping others, but you must be willing to do some yourself.

I feel the technology and information should be shared and helps the community,but I can't texture the addons for you,I can barely make them myself

[drow 0]

I fully agree with this guy.

But everyone i have spoken to with regards to this type of thing has been very cooperative... except for BAS but they have no need to cooperate.

Anyways, I believe people do see that OFP is aging and its a good idea to possibly cooperate with other mods to maximize community talent and resources, its only so called glory hogs or whatever you want to call them that are dead against it, but they did put in their work to get there, and if you got shit all, or nothing they want, why share?

(I am not talking down on BAS in general, I was only stating that I previously was in fact refused rights to use Tonal vegetation, which confused me as a new mod leader, but i understand now how much work goes into this stuff etc. and dont hold it against them.)

Try to cooperate with mods whos level of progress is similar to that of your own.

Then no one has a need to cooperate if they don't. Is that right? How are they different? Sure they make good stuff, there are plenty of others who do. As far as being refused to use Tonal vegetation there is no legal right behind it. It's a matter of integrity and decency. If you are decent enough to ask that's a good thing. Legally there is no right to refusal. It's a matter of respect but I can't quite understand anyone refusing the use of trees?!? If so why release such good addons? It should be open to the community. I can say if anyone wants to use our stuff in their mods go ahead. I'll even send the unbinned models if you are a reputable working and producing mod. If we can save some work for others then good.

uhh, dont really feel like biting today, not here, but a nibble;

Drow, i cant really remember, were you from the team that ?

*Said we took too long to decide, so they said they will use them anway...

or

*had a team member email the same day as the "mod leader" saying "the leader doesnt respect your work or wishes and is already using the stuff..."

or

*sent viruses as a way saying "thanks for the addon"

or

*the person who wanted to put a FEW plants in an addon with the same FILENAME as tonal and release it....

To be honest, something that amuses me, is i reckon i have thought about the plant/veg stuff the LEAST, especially after reading this thread. It didnt take long for me to forget about that funny thing, something about the way real life can be at times all consuming.

But, the few times i have thought about in the past 2-3 months, i have come here to post a "free for all" on the bloody objects (unfinshed objects btw, lol), but every time (about 3) i only had to read a couple of threads to see the anger and plain bitchin still running all over this forum.

It only took no time, each time, for me to forget all about it.

Anyway, dinger, lol, keep up those long posts, pretty good reads.

no, I am an honorable guy,

an as i said, I VERY politely asked permission once i heard that these objects were not to be used by others in the community, (most of the reason you feel so much anamosity from so many, the stuff is released, but noone can use it...)

i was politely refused, I answered by kinda saying it was childish to horde these addons and such,

(i believe i said something to the effect of "kinda lame to hold them and only have them used on tonal untill they get stale and forgotten forever, but i can understand you dont want to be a resource center for other mods"),

and i said OK, i respected your wishes, and now.. im very glad i didnt get permission because

I NEVER WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH BAS

(I do like Ebud tho)

esspeccially if they are anything like you Nag.

edit - and on one other subject, this argument about people stealing credit, or credit being lost,

I have worked extensively in the music industry, its quite the same scenario as this, each song is written, produced and performed by many different people, now 90% of the public dont give a shit and probably think the bloody singer did all the work himself, but for the more enlightened few, all the information and credit is stated and given in the back pages... or the readme  

so the ignorance of the public is hardly a proper argument.

Anyone who wishes to "borrow" something, then takes on the duty of making sure proper credit is given etc. so its his responsibility to know who made what and mention it approprietly.

And I for one dont much care about becoming a famous ofp personality, or infamous for that matter, I just want to make a great game better in my opinion and create a stunning recreation of the Vietnam War.  

I am not here to beauty queen with the OFP big wigs...

and im real sorry but one last re-cap

I said, something to the effect of - I have found nearly ALL mods to be quite reseptive when it comes to Sharing and cooperating, except for BAS (tho i never offered them anything anyways) becuase they have a huge great team, and have no need for outside help.

Whats wrong with that, if you took it as a negitive comment you are mistaken, I also stated numerous times, to stick with mods who you are at the same level of progress as, this is a reasonable COOPERATION where everyone puts in equall amounts of work.

[Nagual 0]

no, I am an honorable guy,

an as i said, I VERY politely asked permission once i heard that these objects were not to be used by others in the community, (most of the reason you feel so much anamosity from so many, the stuff is released, but noone can use it...)

i was politely refused, I answered by kinda saying it was childish to horde these addons and such,

(i believe i said something to the effect of "kinda lame to hold them and only have them used on tonal untill they get stale and forgotten forever, but i can understand you dont want to be a resource center for other mods"),

and i said OK, i respected your wishes, and now.. im very glad i didnt get permission because

I NEVER WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH BAS

(I do like Ebud tho)

esspeccially if they are anything like you Nag.

Lol, too predictable, i was waiting for your personal attacks.

Funny, that i know for sure you didn't send me that reply, must of been someone else you dealt with.

And your PM :

"Dude, that was totally pathetic,

dont slander me on the forums...

Im honorable, and i wouldnt stoop to a level to that of which you speek.

Infact that really fucking pissed me off, because as soon as i heard how childish you guys were being by putting a verbal hold on community released items, I immediatly stopped using them and asked permission.

so dont fuck with me, im a good man... and you are a complete asshole."

Well, it speaks voulmes about character, and the community in general.

[drow 0]

nagural,

dont you see, that was the private reply

to you only,

it all still says the same thing, just the PM one was directed directly at you, and wasnt put so politely.

yes its all me, noone else wrote those, and dont expect people to kiss your ass because your some famous ofp guy, because youre still an asshole.

edit -

P.S. im a bit of a hard ass my self, but i dont know how it turned into me against BAS, i really would be happier never thinking about BAS at all, i dont go around bashing you guys, i have stated and stated again my aguments and also where they got scewed and i tried to clear up things which i may have said that were interperated the wrong way etc.

I dont need this trivial stress, and im doing my best to close my brash presence in this thread on positive intellegent notes...

so please dont needlessly provoke me anymore, and just so you know, theres no way i would send someone a virus or anything like that man, we're all here to play the game and have fun and hopefully make some more friends, not enemies,

i have nothign left to argue on this rediculous subject anyways.

Do your worst...

[drow 0]

Ya know, This is astonishing...

I just re-read back a few pages to see if i was possibly up my ass, and deserving of such a slander-fest,

when infact what i found was, you made yourself sound like a complete fool.

You sound so arrogant, making fun of the whole community!

Saying you laugh when you see they still argue about your ban on using BAS Tonal objects, the objects you dont even think of or care about, you just hold them from the community in what I see as a spiteful way, then you have another laugh and forget all about it in "no time"...

"To be honest, something that amuses me, is i reckon i have thought about the plant/veg stuff the LEAST, especially after reading this thread. It didnt take long for me to forget about that funny thing, something about the way real life can be at times all consuming.

But, the few times i have thought about in the past 2-3 months, i have come here to post a "free for all" on the bloody objects (unfinshed objects btw, lol), but every time (about 3) i only had to read a couple of threads to see the anger and plain bitchin still running all over this forum.

It only took no time, each time, for me to forget all about it."

-NAGUAL

I shoudnt even have entered this trivial battle, it just fuels your pathetic ego.

[ralphwiggum 6]

gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay OT.

closing.