French headscarf ban recommended

[Acecombat 0]

You see that was pretty much my point too , when i go to a nonmuslim country i dont expect too many religious libertys there thats what my own country is for , but the liberty to cover ones body is the least i could ask for you know ....

If France bans prayer or something outside then fine i wouldnt complain after all all those living in their its their fault move to a muslim country thats what they are for your religious freedom. Since its their country any law of theirs should be upheld , but a issue on clothing especially covering up ones body is stupid.

Maybe today weve just seen the scarfs taken off who knows what else they might ask for to be taken off next

[theavonlady 2]

Maybe today weve just seen the scarfs taken off who knows what else they might ask for to be taken off next  

Well, we are talking about France........................

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]While all governments are always viewed as corrupted by a part of their people...

True ,even in the relative social paradise Belgium most people severely distrust their goverment.But then ever since verhofstadt became prime minister we have reasons enough to not trust them.

And the media seems to refrain to touch the dificult issue's from time to time ,more concentrating on smallpolitics between popular figure's.

But if you have ever watched much latino tv.... lol.They really understood the art of covering politics with amusement programms full of hot woman in tight clothes ,and after that another hour of amusement with some smooth presentator and again a lot of hot sexy clothed woman ,and after that more of the same ,etc etc ....

[denoir 0]

Denoir can you save that page and send it to me the one you linked i cant open it its blocked for me.....seems suspicious  

Here's a mirror to the text that blasts the claims: Review of the Quaran speed of light claims

Quote[/b] ]

I went to this site Pukko posted:

http://www.geocities.com/speed_of_light_quran/relativity_quran.htm

Its indeed very very educative   , i am seriously impressed by reading it.

It's not educative, it's pure bullshit from a physical point of view. It's on the same level as the Christians that claim that the earth is 6,000 years old.

[SPQR 0]

I do respect anybody's religious belief, that's a fundamental Human right. And I do agree, feeling "good" (no better word to express a feling, sorry), when inside a muslim family, one lady made the choise not to wear the scarf, while her sister made the choice of wearing it. No social, family or cultural pressure, only a TRUE choice. This is the goal we are trying to aim at.

But because, and I understand that, it's so human, when the world is changing very fast, when humans lose their marks because their individuality (differnet from individualism, that is a plague) is not strong enough, the first reflex action is to take refuge in the smallest social unit, a community.

And France don't wan't to become a patchwork of communities. It may be Ok, when everything happening is at peace.

When problems happen, some communities start waging political or even armed conflict against the others. That happens when a Society has no goal for a society project, but just living side by side.

Tolerance is far easier when there's a far dominent "social group".

In France, there are far many "social groups".

[Acecombat 0]

Sorry denoir but what was that guys point all the time he kept on ranting continously that its wrong and wrong though he didnt give any solid proof of what he was trying to prove wrong or maybe i didnt understand it properly , can you PM me what was wrong in the guys reckoning plz?

Quote[/b] ]It's not educative, it's pure bullshit from a physical point of view. It's on the same level as the Christians that claim that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Also explain this to me too how ?

He clearly stated it all against this .... the guy has a forum and email too perhaps you should contact him and ask him too?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I do respect anybody's religious belief, that's a fundamental Human right.

No it isn't.

Depending on what you mean by respect. If you mean 'allow them to do whatever the hell they say their religion says'* - then no it isn't. If you mean 'let them believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt other people' then yes, it is.

*here I mean things like Branch Davidians (the Waco siege), other religious cults, mass suicides, etc as well as things like a single crazy person who thinks god is telling them to torture and kill other people.

The amount of crazy beliefs that are tolerated depends on the society and how different those crazy beliefs are to the crazy beliefs of the society. Eg the literal changing of bread into human flesh.

[SPQR 0]

I do respect anybody's religious belief, that's a fundamental Human right.

No it isn't.

Depending ......... human flesh.

You are right, juste a big short-curt

I just keep for myself how to define intelligent human life-form and cattle

[denoir 0]

Sorry denoir but what was that guys point all the time he kept on ranting continously that its wrong and wrong though he didnt give any solid proof of what he was trying to prove wrong or maybe i didnt understand it properly , can you PM me what was wrong in the guys reckoning plz?

It's a completely whacked crackpot theory.

Just look at this part:

Quote[/b] ][Quran 32.5] (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.

Moslems (Muslims) believe that angels are low mass creatures, and that God created them originally from light. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carryout this ?cosmic affair?. Hence in 1 day, the angles (who travel at the speed of light) will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Obviously they counted lunar years. So Allah is saying that light travels in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 lunar orbits (1000 years x 12 orbits/year).

Angels are low mass creatures that move from zero to the speed of light?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]It's not educative, it's pure bullshit from a physical point of view. It's on the same level as the Christians that claim that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Quote[/b] ]

Also explain this to me too how ?

He clearly stated it all against this .... the guy has a forum and email too perhaps you should contact him and ask him too?

Why on earth would I do that? Don't you understand that the person who wrote the theory is a crackpot? This is on the same level as little green men taking over the earth. It has nothing to do with reason or science. The guy who wrote it hasn't got a first clue of physics and his attempt to connect it to religion is laughable.

Angels travel at the speed of light? Well, then we should be able to find God fairly easily as he can't be too far away. If he is no further away than the nearest star (a bit more than  4 ly away) it would take more than four years to get one of his 'messages' to Earth. Now that's what I call lag! And it's bi-directional of course. So no point in asking for something in a prayer because it would take years for it to reach him. Now that's assuming that he's lurking somewhere as close as the nearest star. Not very likely as his 'messages of light' would be easily picked up by telescopes. Modern radio telescopes btw have a range today of over 1,000 light years (actually it's closer to 100,000 ly, but let's say 1,000 for simplicity). So if God is hiding somewhere out in the universe, he would have to be further away not to be discovered. And that would mean that messages to and from him would take more than 1,000 years in travel time.

Now, the muslim God is, I presume, like the Christian God, all-powerful and all-knowing. So he would need a massive information bi-directional badndwith to keep track of all of us and to influence our actions. In short there would have to be a gigantic flow of radio-waves (light) between his hiding place in the universe and our little planet. But then, with a lag ranging from a couple to a couple of thousand years, the whole thing would be an excercise in futility as you would have very little benefit of God helping you make the right career choice when his advice would come 1,000 years after you are dead.

Do you see now what I'm talking about? Do you see why his post and all attempts to put the spiritual domain into the physical domain is an excercise in idiocy?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I want God's ping.

[Longinius 1]

Wonder if he ever gets his connection reset by peer...

[Acecombat 0]

No denoir you didnt get some things clear you based your whole opinion on what he said theres more to it in the Quran over this i havent searched properly yet but came up with a few different verses indicating so , your whole argument is wrought by the time it takes the message to reach god ?

Well how do you know may i ask where God is who told you that he is 4 ly away?

Heres a quote from the Quran:

002.115 To Allah belong the EAST and the WEST;Withersoever ye turn, there is presence of Allah.For Allah is all-Pervading, All knowing.

There is one more but i forgot where it was located in the quran specificially but it stated that god is closer to you then your jugular(sp) vein. Which puts GOD's position hard to pin point , hes literally everywhere. If you notice after readin the Quran that it provides many parables for us human beings to understand the world from , maybe this is one of them to understand the speed of light. As the Quran says there are signs in this world for the knowledgable amongst men to understand.

Therefore the point of the whole article wasnt to calculate the position of GOD ( ) but instead the speed at which things go back and forth to him in other words speed of light.

We cannot thiink of GOD in our own way , in our worlds physics and its understanding (half of which are theories anyway).Its practically impossible.

043.082 Glory to the lord of the heavens and the earth , the Lord of the Throne (of authority)! (He is free) from the things they have attributed (to him)!

Btw i have a excellent website for you to go through this time this guys a PHD so he isnt some lame ass wannabe

http://www.irfi.org/

Go there and read his articles i had been trying to find this link for ages as i had lost it on the reformat.

It contains very nicely explained theories on Angels and literally everything in the light of SCIENCE.

Visit the article section 1-50 and all of them.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]very nicely explained theories on Angels and literally everything in the light of SCIENCE

Science <-> angels

Controverstity at it´s best.

HUMBUG !

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Acecombat: That site is nonsense. Sorry.

You simply cannot do scientific work by assuming that something is true and then trying to find ways to prove it.

Quote[/b] ] In the Kalimah one has to bear/witness to the truth in the following words: "I bear witness that there is no god (deity) but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Servant and Apostle of Allah." By proclaiming this Kalimah one implicitly believes in the following Articles of Faith:

1.

2. Existence and Attributes of Allah Destiny or Measure (Taqdir)

3. Angels

4. Prophets

5. Revealed Books

6. The Hereafter

Right, he sounds very unbiased and completely open minded. What a load of shite.

[denoir 0]

Acecombat:

(I deleted here a number of swearwords and insults directed at your failure to understand)

I illustrated the consequences of his claims. If you claim that messages from and too god travel at the speed of light, then you have the consequences that I posted above.

If you've given the velocity of the messages then you have also consequently put them in space and in time, resulting in the absurdities that I presented in my previous post.

Quote[/b] ]

btw i have a excellent website for you to go through this time this guys a PHD so he isnt some lame ass wannabe

http://www.irfi.org/

Go there and read his articles i had been trying to find this link for ages as i had lost it on the reformat.

It contains very nicely explained theories on Angels and literally everything in the light of SCIENCE.

Visit the article section 1-50 and all of them.

I really don't have time for this crap, but ok. This is the article about angels that you are talking about. First of all the guy has a PhD in medicine which means that his knowledge of physics is extremely limited. Second, his article has very little to do with the claims in the other article. All he says here is that the four fundamental physical forces in nature could be said are the angels. Unfortunately it's very very incompatible with the first part of the article where he states what the Quoran says about them. It is also incompatible with phyics as light (photons) is only directly related to the electromagnetic force and none of the other three (light=electromagnetic waves).

Again a very typical case of complete ignorance. Face it, only religious nuts and idiots try to interpret science through religious texts.

[denoir 0]

You simply cannot do scientific work by assuming that something is true and then trying to find ways to prove it.  

Hehe, I think you want to reconsider that statement. That is the way of the scientific method.

You 1) Formulate a hypothesis

     2) Prove it

The problem in the religious type crackpot "proofs" is that they make huge assumptions that they are not even trying to prove, that they take bits and pieces of existing science and put everything together in a nonsensical way. And for axioms they take interpretations of ancient religious texts which cannot by any standard be inserted as a reliable scientific reference.

[ralphwiggum 6]

You simply cannot do scientific work by assuming that something is true and then trying to find ways to prove it.  

Hehe, I think you want to reconsider that statement. That is the way of the scientific method.

You 1) Formulate a hypothesis

     2) Prove it

The problem in the religious type crackpot "proofs" is that they make huge assumptions that they are not even trying to prove, that they take bits and pieces of existing science and put everything together in a nonsensical way. And for axioms they take interpretations of ancient religious texts which cannot by any standard be inserted as a reliable scientific reference.

i'd add one more thing.

3)needs to be applicable and predict/foresee what will happen given assumptions are all fulfilled.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

You simply cannot do scientific work by assuming that something is true and then trying to find ways to prove it.

Hehe, I think you want to reconsider that statement. That is the way of the scientific method.

You 1) Formulate a hypothesis

2) Prove it

The problem in the religious type crackpot "proofs" is that they make huge assumptions that they are not even trying to prove, that they take bits and pieces of existing science and put everything together in a nonsensical way. And for axioms they take interpretations of ancient religious texts which cannot by any standard be inserted as a reliable scientific reference.

Correct. However, you don't assume that it is true and attempt to prove it; you postulate something that *might* be true and test it; if it's not true, you do not ignore the evidence and look for more.

Example of creationist 'science'/ religious 'science' - 'God created the world, where is the evidence to support this. Ah, this evidence doesn't support this idea: the evidence is wrong.'

Example of proper science investigating the same thing:

'IF god created the world, then X Y and Z should be true: are they. No. What else could explain the evidence we have?'

I should have said

'You simply cannot do scientific work by assuming that something is true and then trying to find ways to prove it, and ignoring anything that contradicts it'

[Acecombat 0]

@Baron: As denoir said that is th scientific way to prove a thing you assume its true and then go forward if you dont assume that its true then wtf are you moving forward with it?

As for the other comment of yours well whats wrong? Are the basic fundamentals of islamic ideology shiite looking to you or something?

@Balshoiw: You can belive in aliens and not angels?

Wow now thats controversy , if there can be another being besides us then why not angels? Are they related to religion so therefore they cant exist?

Sorry thats very lame.

@Denoir:

Ok i got your message this time along with a different verse after searching the Quran again it seems that guy was at a mistake he didnt quote the right verse either , the real is this one:

070.004 The angel and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure of whereof is (as) fifty thousand years.

I'll send that guy an email and ask him about it thanks for the point out , gee my heads spinning

Well denoir about the angel part what you said is also said by the author too:

Quote[/b] ]If angels are made of light then light is made of electromagnetic radiation, which travels at 186,000 miles per second. Like angels electromagnetic force obeys the laws of nature incessantly without mistake and has. No free will or an independent will of its own. Hence it has a one-dimensional nature like angels. Electromagnetic radiation has no gender, no emotions including passions and has no instincts or biological urges.

And the Quran speaks very little of them except in a few verses and they read that they are created by light what you just said ?

But remember this:

PS The ideas, opinions and theories expounded by the author in this article may be proven wrong in the light of new knowledge available in the future and the author takes full responsibility for it. There is nothing wrong in expounding one's ideas; today which may be proven inappropriate or obsolete in the future. One can witness this in the study of great scientists, both Muslim and non-Muslim, such as lbn Sina, Al-Razi, Al-Biruni, etc. and the giants of the Western civilization such as Plato, Aristotle, Sir Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, etc.

He didnt base any of his assumptions strictly on what the Quran said either , he only followed a lead which is pretty much the only way to go in this research otherwise where else could he get information on angels?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

@Baron: As denoir said that is th scientific way to prove a thing you assume its true and then go forward if you dont assume that its true then wtf are you moving forward with it?

Read my post. Again.

you TEST if its true. You do NOT assume that it is true and refuse to consider that it might not be true.

Quote[/b] ]

As for the other comment of yours well whats wrong? Are the basic fundamentals of islamic ideology shiite looking to you or something?

Umm... yes. Nice book, shame it was made up by old men looking to improve there own lot in life. There's nothing supernatural about it. None of the claims made about it predicting the future, or being full of scientific information are true (and neither are those same claims made of other vague, wooly books such as the Xian bible or Nostradamus' prophecies)

Quote[/b] ]

@Balshoiw: You can belive in aliens and not angels?

Wow now thats controversy , if there can be another being besides us then why not angels? Are they related to religion so therefore they cant exist?

Sorry thats very lame.

No, angels can't exist because they are impossible. Square circles cannot exist; they have self contradictory properties. So do angels.

Quote[/b] ]

But remember this:

PS The ideas, opinions and theories expounded by the author in this article may be proven wrong in the light of new knowledge available in the future and the author takes full responsibility for it. There is nothing wrong in expounding one's ideas; today which may be proven inappropriate or obsolete in the future.

Theres nothing wrong with expounding original, new ideas. Expounding ancient jibberish nonsense, on the other hand...

We don't need to wait for the future, this crap is both inappropriate and obsolete today.

He didnt base any of his assumptions strictly on what the Quran said either , he only followed a lead which is pretty much the only way to go in this research otherwise where else could he get information on angels?

WHAT? Are you even reading the same thing as everyone else?

The ONLY thing he is basing his nonsense on is the Quran!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]@Balshoiw: You can belive in aliens and not angels?

Where did I state I believe in aliens ?!?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]@Balshoiw: You can belive in aliens and not angels?

Where did I state I believe in aliens ?!?

Well considering you had secular leanings so i thought you would generally?

Dont you believe there could be life out there then?

Quote[/b] ]Umm... yes. Nice book, shame it was made up by old men looking to improve there own lot in life. There's nothing supernatural about it. None of the claims made about it predicting the future, or being full of scientific information are true (and neither are those same claims made of other vague, wooly books such as the Xian bible or Nostradamus' prophecies)

Excuse me there are lots claims in it that are true , read before you spout crap , The Quran tells about the Universes Expansion , it also tells about its contraction , it also supports the theory of evolution , it also predicts the end of the world and even said about the Plate movements 1400 year ago plus many more facts.

I'll quote those to you if you want.

Neither was the religion made up by old men (some were probbaly but not the divine ones) who wanted to see their societys changed no one goes through all that crap they did no one bears so much nonsense and hate for nothing.

If you can come up with better ideals on how a society should work and how the world works plus how did the universe came in to being then show me the direction of your house i'll start worshipping you

I'd rather believe in a GOD who created ths world rather then living a confused life wondering how did we materialse from ?

Quote[/b] ]No, angels can't exist because they are impossible. Square circles cannot exist; they have self contradictory properties. So do angels.

Whats so contradictory ?

Quote[/b] ]WHAT? Are you even reading the same thing as everyone else?

The ONLY thing he is basing his nonsense on is the Quran!

Hes basing it on Quran and i explained why too read that ... but hes explaining things in a scientific manner and isnt saying this is true because i said so ... as you are.

[denoir 0]

Whats so contradictory ?

Ok, let's by using standard deductive scientific logic analyze your assertions.

Your hypotesis.

1) God exists

2) Angels that are made of ligth/EM waves exist

3) Angles are God's tools of communication

4) God is not spatially localized

Ok, let's take a look at hypotesis 2,3 and 4.

Electromagnetic waves, such as light have a directional vector that is spatially defined (they are localized and have a direction). If Angels are used to send messages between God and his subjects then claim number 2 and 4 are in contradiction. EM waves travel, in a direction, in space. Hence for God to recieve them he must be spatially localized too. Something that claim 4 specifically states he is not.

Hence the assumptions 2,3,4 are inconsistent. At least one of them must be wrong.

That was by simple deduction. Let's take another approach. In deduction you use logic to promote or dismiss arguments. The other way is the inductive where you come to a conclusion based on verifiable and repeatable empirical experiments.

Ok, let's take a look at claim number 2 and 3. Electromagnetic waves of the full spectra can be and is easily measured. If God was communicating with his subjects via EM based angels, we would be able to easily detect it. Needless to say, no observation of odd EM signals from all human beings has been detected. Hence claim 2 or 3 must be wrong.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well considering you had secular leanings so i thought you would generally?  

Dont you believe there could be life out there then?

No I don´t think so. As life is an expression and definition that is directly related to mankind or the things mankind defined I am sure there is no life in outer space. If we talk about lifeforms in various ways, like "unmeasurable" phenonemons I say there might be a chance but we would not recognize it. (limitations of mankind)

I´m not trying to find some spirit for my life in god, aliens or such. If some wobble-wobble-gulp stands in my garden someday we can talk it over again. Unless the wobble-wobble-gulp is not here and doesn´t tell me where "it" came from I´ll simply not "believe" in it.

It´s fun to think about, but chances are ridiculouse low imo.

There´s always the 3D limitation to mankind you know  

Edita durango:

Uh oh !

Just read the treahdtitle again. Me writing about angels and aliens and the thread on headscarves...

Anyway what do you think about my school uniform thoughts ? Is it better than the clothing competition at school and wouldn´t it be a good way to "unify" people of different country origin ?

[SPQR 0]

The scarf seems to be really damaging to human relationships

               

As Emperor Palpatine would laugh if he was french as me..

I'm starting to think we, french, are right. Hopefully, many of you don't face the others, face to face, just communicating via electronic means, or else would happen

Just give ourselves a rendez-vous after our death, we'll all laugh about that current discussion