Is earth defenceless?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I am not bashing the scientists for trying to find out , but theyre theorys in the end lead to one question WHY ? To which they will never ever have the answer.

So there explaining it to us as to how the universe came in to being is futile  

Why are you assuming there is an answer?

[Mr. Snrub 0]

So there explaining it to us as to how the universe came in to being is futile

I think you're missing the point somewhat ... science (and scientists) never actually claim to know everything, and this is especially true of a subject as complex as the origins of the universe.

The simple fact is that nothing (except mathematic principles) can be proven wholly, so the next best thing is proving it beyond a reasonable doubt. That is where theories come in - scientists attempt to explain known facts and phenomena by formulating theories that best fit what we know. Theories are by no means set in stone, and if someone else comes up with a more convincing theory, others will lose favour within the scientific community.

What you seem to want is quick, definite answers to incredibly complex questions. Science cannot provide this, nor does it claim to. The reality is that we will never for sure how the universe started, but we can have some pretty good guesses

[bn880 5]

Well don't say never, that is so negative.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

No I do not believe it is impossible to predict. Even with different environmental conditions, the end result of thousands of years of evolution will be very similar to ours. The main point is, how different of an environment do you think there will be? Do you not agree that the most intelligent life forms develop onthe surface of a planet? That they learn to use tools, think for survival, are generally physically weak and incapable of surviving ontheir own? The whole concept of how intelligence increases in evolution to a level that we see in us is based on social behaviour necessary for survival of weaker and weaker animals, but always more and more intelligent.

There is no way out of it, face it, we are not essentially special, we are a standard product of nature. An invevitable result where conditions permit evolution to continue long enough.

EDIT: My view on this is not coming from a lack of consideration, actually I used to have the idea that alien life would be completely different from ours, until I thought about much longer, and learned along the way. So this is my "new" take on it if you will.

I should probably have been a little more specific

The nature of alien behaviour, as you say, isn't impossible to predict, as we could come up with thousands of possible scenarios, one of which would probably apply to the species of alien we eventually run into.

But accurately predicting it (narrowing down those thousands of possibilities to even a handful) would be somewhat presumptuous.

Although humans can claim to be somewhat "special" on Earth (given our level of potential and development compared to other, even comparable, species), the existence of an alien race with similar mental capabilties to us obviously negates that uniqueness. Since the chances of there being other life (intelligent or not) elsewhere in the universe are fairly good, the chances of us being unique are fairly small.

What I'm getting at is this - evolution would undoutedly have occurred on other planets where life exists, either naturally or artificially. Furthermore (it may actually seem like I'm proving your point here ), to foster a successful civilisation, the alien species would have to be a social animal like humans.

But the extent of social behaviour is the key. The aliens may be more group-oriented than humans (think biological communists), in which case emotions such as hate may not have been necessary. You may think that hate is a biologically necessary mental component of any species in order to deal with other, competing species. However, what if the other species had died off long ago, and the dominant race was left to evolve for another million years? After all, evolution on Earth has been taking place for approx. 3 billion years, and we can't assume that our timeline is anything like that of another planet.

Evolution isn't a fixed procedure, in which a species identical to humans pops off after a couple of billion years, no matter which planet its happening on. Intelligent extraterrestrial life (if there is any - there still isn't any accurate measurement of probability, and may never be) may have branched off at any given point in time, subject to the conditions of the planet - conditions which may be nothing like those of Earth.

Therefore, if the alien species' direct evolution (after becoming a species in its own right) has been going on for much longer than that of humans, there's no telling to what level of social behaviour they've evolved to. Like I said before, they could have evolved (with help from pressure within their own society perhaps) "out" of certain emotions, like hate/lust for power/greed etc. And like I said in a previous post, perhaps they would have artificially suppressed/removed certain emotions they have deemed dangerous or limiting potential.

But that's by no means certain either, its just an example of why an alien species needn't think or behave in a similar fashion to humans. Until we meet an alien race, narrowing down thousands of different possibilities of alien behaviour to one or two is being rather presumptuous, given our incredibly limited knowledge of evolution.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

Well don't say never, that is so negative.

LOL, it's unfortunately true - even if we stumble upon the right answer, being the fallible creatures we are we might never realise it.

It's like history (even recent history) - we can make pretty good guesses based on all available evidence, but we can never be absolutely sure of anything. We might be missing a crucial piece of contradictory evidence when all the signs are pointing a certain way.

I believe there are absolute truths (ie. how the universe started), but whether we have the ability to find out what they are is another matter...

[bn880 5]

But accurately predicting it (narrowing down those thousands of possibilities to even a handful) would be somewhat presumptuous.

Of course, you can make some very educated presumtions.

Quote[/b] ]What I'm getting at is this - evolution would undoutedly have occurred on other planets where life exists, either naturally or artificially. Furthermore (it may actually seem like I'm proving your point here ), to foster a successful civilisation, the alien species would have to be a social animal like humans.

But the extent of social behaviour is the key. The aliens may be more group-oriented than humans (think biological communists), in which case emotions such as hate may not have been necessary. You may think that hate is a biologically necessary mental component of any species in order to deal with other, competing species. However, what if the other species had died off long ago, and the dominant race was left to evolve for another million years? After all, evolution on Earth has been taking place for approx. 3 billion years, and we can't assume that our timeline is anything like that of another planet.

Fortunately it is much simpler than this, once a certain level of intelligence is reached evolution is pretty much constrained to the cerebral cortex if you will, the brain. Any further development will lead to better dexterity, higher level of intellect and possibly resistance to stress. We are never going to develop large teeth, fur, or other such features, we are past the physical evolution, we are turning back on it.

As for artificial evolution, no matter what race you take, no race here or anywhere would be willing to deprive themselves of emotions. Emotions drive everything, you can not escape them, and you live by them, so will any very intelligent alien lifeform. If you create beings who lack the similar emotions we have, they will be self destructive in many ways. Emotions are a part the logical process of decision making. You feel emotions like the AI in OFP runs through an IF statement and decides to flee. You can interpret any animal to be emotion less, because on the exterior you can not tap into their feelings/emotions, but they must have them, to some extent.

Quote[/b] ]Evolution isn't a fixed procedure, in which a species identical to humans pops off after a couple of billion years, no matter which planet its happening on. Intelligent extraterrestrial life (if there is any - there still isn't any accurate measurement of probability, and may never be) may have branched off at any given point in time, subject to the conditions of the planet - conditions which may be nothing like those of Earth.

Yes they can branch off where they like, when you see them on a "space craft" approaching earth, they have to be at a point of evolution which resembles us. You know, we invented the wheel for transportation, do you think else where they invented the triangle for the same reason? No, and nature runs by the same rulse my friend. We have been fed fantasies, look carefully at what we know about the Universe, we can determine the possible conditions for life as we know it, and there are no places where we see different rules of nature.

If I can run another analogy by you, the thought process of our brains over a lifetime is just as complex and random if you will as earths evolution, and yet people from two different continents, backgrounds, and experiences eventually come across the same conclusions, especially when it comes to inventions and other productive developments! Why? Because the environment around them, nature, has certain rules which are constant everywhere, and they are not broken on the other side of the Universe either, they are essentially the same.

On the other hand, when you talk about genetic engineered beings, they will simply be the specialists of that race, tools if you will. They will have to be intellectually set back to avoid fighting their "makers" for making them into tools. So I don't know, but it seems to me no race is stupid enough to completely lose their origins in genetic engineering, as it can be suicidal.

Quote[/b] ]Therefore, if the alien species' direct evolution (after becoming a species in its own right) has been going on for much longer than that of humans, there's no telling to what level of social behaviour they've evolved to. Like I said before, they could have evolved (with help from pressure within their own society perhaps) "out" of certain emotions, like hate/lust for power/greed etc. And like I said in a previous post, perhaps they would have artificially suppressed/removed certain emotions they have deemed dangerous or limiting potential.

Well I can agree they might supress some emotions through evolution during a state of civilization, especially hatered and anger, but essentially what weare talking about are different levels of each emotion when compared to us. Never the less, logic which follows nature dictates all basic emotions, and the form of intelligent beings which we can recognize.

Quote[/b] ]But that's by no means certain either, its just an example of why an alien species needn't think or behave in a similar fashion to humans. Until we meet an alien race, narrowing down thousands of different possibilities of alien behaviour to one or two is being rather presumptuous, given our incredibly limited knowledge of evolution.

Personally I think I have a very good general understanding of evolution, and I am confident in presuming nature dictates the 'final' evolutionary product for sentient beings. And there is yet another presumtion in that statement.

If you can suggest to me, how a lifeform that is at a stage of civilization like ours or much higher (governed by the laws of nature itself) would completely differ and survive, be my guest.

[bn880 5]

Well don't say never, that is so negative.

LOL, it's unfortunately true - even if we stumble upon the right answer, being the fallible creatures we are we might never realise it.

It's like history (even recent history) - we can make pretty good guesses based on all available evidence, but we can never be absolutely sure of anything. We might be missing a crucial piece of contradictory evidence when all the signs are pointing a certain way.

I believe there are absolute truths (ie. how the universe started), but whether we have the ability to find out what they are is another matter...

I don't think it is ture, I think there is a possibility we will someday understand the full process of the Universe. It's a serious presumption to say we will be unable to find the answer.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Large brains and intelligence are not an inevitable outcome of evolution; thats tantamount to the victorian 'top of the ladder' BS. Large brains use an inordinate amount of energy; if there is no benefit to developing them, the creatures concerned won't. (or rather, the mutations with large brains will die out)

[bn880 5]

I think you are missing the point... without a proper brain they won't be smart enough to travel the distance starting from a planet. And anyway, BS is your asessment, since it is inevitable that animals who are smarter survive better, ebcause through the use of tools and passing of information a species can always survive better.

[Grizzlie 0]

I think it is easy to compare heads of for instance australopitecus, neandertal, Cro-Magnon and homo sapiens to see that our brain is growing. Soon human would look like big head with big eyes to watch monitor and big finger to type on keyboard

But i can aggree that not size but complexity of brain decides about intelligence.

Oh well, dinosaurs had little brains and they died ;)

And question is - does mankind having bigger brains will survive?

[Mr. Snrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, you can make some very educated presumtions.

But still only presumptions until we have more facts

Quote[/b] ]Fortunately it is much simpler than this, once a certain level of intelligence is reached evolution is pretty much constrained to the cerebral cortex if you will, the brain. Any further development will lead to better dexterity, higher level of intellect and possibly resistance to stress. We are never going to develop large teeth, fur, or other such features, we are past the physical evolution, we are turning back on it.

As for artificial evolution, no matter what race you take, no race here or anywhere would be willing to deprive themselves of emotions. Emotions drive everything, you can not escape them, and you live by them, so will any very intelligent alien lifeform. If you create beings who lack the similar emotions we have, they will be self destructive in many ways. Emotions are a part the logical process of decision making. You feel emotions like the AI in OFP runs through an IF statement and decides to flee. You can interpret any animal to be emotion less, because on the exterior you can not tap into their feelings/emotions, but they must have them, to some extent.

I'm not really arguing that an alien species will be devoid of emotion (seeing as how 'emotions' are simply human interpretations of instinct, and all creatures - sentient or otherwise - must have instinct to surivive, as you said), but rather that there exists the possibility that an alien species would not necessarily have the same emotions or level of emotional activity that humans do.

Emotions such as hate, for example, are necessary in a situation in which there are two competing species. If one of those species were to die off (for whatever reason), that would leave the other to evolve in relative peace, for perhaps another million years or so. There exists the possibility that the species that survived evolved "out" of the 'hate' emotion, for it was no longer necessary, and was potentially destructive within the social group. Just as emotions can evolve through biological/environmental necessity, so can they devolve for the same reason. For all we know, the alien species we eventually run into has been the only species on its planet for 200 million years - so for 200 million years it had been evolving without contact with another species. Or perhaps multiple species evolved on the same planet, but were isolated environmentally.

Seeing as that has never happened on Earth (thousands of different types of species evolved simultaneously, each influencing the others' path of evolution), we cannot predict the path of evolution on another planet.

Human emotions developed the way they did because of the nature of evolution on Earth. However, we cannot be certain that the evolution on another planet will be anything like that which has taken place here. Too many variables to make an accurate prediction.

Quote[/b] ] Yes they can branch off where they like, when you see them on a "space craft" approaching earth, they have to be at a point of evolution which resembles us. You know, we invented the wheel for transportation, do you think else where they invented the triangle for the same reason? No, and nature runs by the same rulse my friend. We have been fed fantasies, look carefully at what we know about the Universe, we can determine the possible conditions for life as we know it, and there are no places where we see different rules of nature.

If I can run another analogy by you, the thought process of our brains over a lifetime is just as complex and random if you will as earths evolution, and yet people from two different continents, backgrounds, and experiences eventually come across the same conclusions, especially when it comes to inventions and other productive developments! Why? Because the environment around them, nature, has certain rules which are constant everywhere, and they are not broken on the other side of the Universe either, they are essentially the same.

Humans from different parts of the world developed similarily (incredibly similarly) because...

1. We all originated in the same place - Africa - from which we spread upwards, through the Mid-East, up to Europe, across Asia etc.

2. Therefore, our biology is exactly the same, regardless of where humans settled. For example, an Algerian is 99% biologically identical to an Eskimo (allowing room for unique DNA).

3. Environmental conditions on Earth are incredibly similar, relative to possible differences between Earth and an alien world.

Oxygen is everywhere, sunlight is everywhere (except for a few months in extreme latitudes), water is abundant.

An alien world might have an atmosphere composed largely of nitrogen, or any other gas you care to mention. The planet could be in a twin-sun system. The point here is that environment determines biology, biology determines emotion, therefore if the environment is different, the resulting biology and mental processes could be far different to those of humans.

Quote[/b] ]On the other hand, when you talk about genetic engineered beings, they will simply be the specialists of that race, tools if you will. They will have to be intellectually set back to avoid fighting their "makers" for making them into tools. So I don't know, but it seems to me no race is stupid enough to completely lose their origins in genetic engineering, as it can be suicidal.

You're making some pretty big presumptions here. What if the entire race agrees that emotions are irrelevant? What if the race is, or has become a linked collective? There's no telling how alien society would work - it could be a forced decision. Yet again, its a possibilty, but an unknown.

If they have advanced far enough to develop foolproof genetic engineering techniques, then no harm is done. Much like cloning - if they have the capability to do it properly and efficiently, and lack the morality/religion/sentimentality that has so far prevented humans from venturing too far into the field, then it is a distinct possiblity...

Quote[/b] ]Well I can agree they might supress some emotions through evolution during a state of civilization, especially hatered and anger, but essentially what weare talking about are different levels of each emotion when compared to us. Never the less, logic which follows nature dictates all basic emotions, and the form of intelligent beings which we can recognize.

Nature is not particularly logical, it is chaotic and unpredictable. Emotions are necessary in certain situations, and it is logical for a species to have them, but it doesn't make their resulting effects logical. An alien species needn't be emotional to be intelligent - in fact, the employment of logical judgement and reasoning without emotional consideration could be argued to be a sign of a higher intelligence.

Quote[/b] ] Personally I think I have a very good general understanding of evolution, and I am confident in presuming nature dictates the 'final' evolutionary product for sentient beings. And there is yet another presumtion in that statement.

If you can suggest to me, how a lifeform that is at a stage of civilization like ours or much higher (governed by the laws of nature itself) would completely differ and survive, be my guest.

I too have a good understanding of the subject (which unfortunately eludes a good many people)

The problem here is this - you cannot presume the human race to be a template of all intelligent life throughout the universe. Undoubtedly some similarities between humans and an advanced alien race would be identifiable, necessarily so.

But emotions aren't necessarily one of those characteristics that would be uniform across the universe, for the reasons I have outlined above. Environment is the major factor, and we cannot assume the environment on an alien world will be exactly like that of Earth. Even the slightest variation could lead to exaggerated differences between the two.

Take the human race as an example. Think of human evolution as an experiment conducted in a lab. If we were to scrap the current experiment and run it again, there is only a small possibilty that the resulting dominant species (if there is one at all!) will be exactly the same as we are now. After all, evolution is based on chance. Any minute difference in any minute event in the 3 billion years of evolution could throw the whole path off.

Think of two intersecting lines. At one point (the intersection) the lines were on the same path, but any deviation away from that point and the eventual end of the lines (the nature of the dominant species) will be in much different positions.

Take the fragility of evolution, in which any tiny difference can result in a hugely different outcome, and stick it on an alien planet. The environment is different (perhaps remarkably so), and therefore the possibility that the resulting dominant species would be exactly like humans is about zero. Even that the species might resemble humans in some way is not assured.

You talk about 'the laws of nature', but the only laws of nature we can observe and comment about are the ones taking place on Earth. There is nothing to say that the 'laws of nature' will be the same on another, life supporting planet.

The simple fact is that, taking evolution into consideration, there are far too many variables to consider to come to any meaningful conclusion about intelligent life out there. We can reach a few, rather obvious conclusions, but the specifics (like emotion) would be mere speculation based on incredibly limited knowledge.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

Well don't say never, that is so negative.

LOL, it's unfortunately true - even if we stumble upon the right answer, being the fallible creatures we are we might never realise it.

It's like history (even recent history) - we can make pretty good guesses based on all available evidence, but we can never be absolutely sure of anything. We might be missing a crucial piece of contradictory evidence when all the signs are pointing a certain way.

I believe there are absolute truths (ie. how the universe started), but whether we have the ability to find out what they are is another matter...

I don't think it is ture, I think there is a possibility we will someday understand the full process of the Universe. It's a serious presumption to say we will be unable to find the answer.

What I'm getting at is that humans (due to our non-omniscient nature) cannot know absolutely everything about an event as broad as the beginning of the universe, especially since it was around 12 billion years ago (we still don't know for sure).

We cannot know the nature and position of every particle present at the 'big bang'.

We're probably arguing over semantics here. I agree with you that we can know the answers to many questions. However, these answers would be simply those 'proven beyond a reasonable doubt' - the kind that would hold up in a courtroom, and enough to satisfy most people. Unfortunately we, due to our limited capabilities as humans, cannot know the "full truth"â„¢, which entails absolutely everything about a specific event.

We'd have to be God to do that

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I think you are missing the point...  without a proper brain they won't be smart enough to travel the distance starting from a planet.  And anyway, BS is your asessment, since it is inevitable that animals who are smarter survive better, ebcause through the use of tools and passing of information a species can always survive better.

I wasn't argueing that brains are unnessesary, I was argueing that not all planets that support life will necessarily have intelligent life.

Its not inevitable that animals that are smarter survive better, because an animal that is 'stupid' but very fast and powerful can still defeat it. A big cat or two is more than a match for a few apes, especially apes who are not quite smart enough to work together or use tools.

I was also calling the victorian assumption that humans are in some way at the top of a ladder that all other creatures aspire to BS, not anything else.

[Guest]

I think you are missing the point...  without a proper brain they won't be smart enough to travel the distance starting from a planet.  And anyway, BS is your asessment, since it is inevitable that animals who are smarter survive better, ebcause through the use of tools and passing of information a species can always survive better.

This is really 2 points.

1. A species that could travel from one planet to another would have to be intelligent.

Excluding bacteria/germs etc that could travel on asteroids etc I assume  

2. Animals that are smarter survive better.

This is incorrect. My examples are crocodiles/alligators. They have remained virtually unchanged for millions of years, and surviving quite well thank you very much. The "idea" of evolution is not endless progression. It is to fit your environment perfectly and to survive. Crocodiles are far superior to Humans in these respects. They fit their environment much better than we do, they are top of their food chain, and they have no inherent reproductive flaws.

Crocs are just one example....look at bacteria/viruses. They have a far greater potential to survive massive climate change (the main threat to all species...other than other species), they reproduce effectively and they have been around for as far as back as the fossil record goes. I wouldn't call them smart....but I would say they survive better than any other form of life on Earth  

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Thats what I was trying to say, but more clearly and concisely than I did

[VXR 9]

12 December there will be a close one (2003 WY250)

the seize is 400×150 meters  

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/db?name=2003+WY25

Gif Anim

[theavonlady 2]

How close will this one come and why didn't you give us enough time to build underground blast shelters?

[Apollo 0]

Well ,when it come's to asteroids ,we really havn't got an anwer for all of them.See there are million's of asteroids out there ,but the real problem is that they all have a different speed.In space ,an asteroids speed is dependant on a number of factor's ,some of them are initial speed e.g the speed it got when it was blasted away for ex. from a supernova ,and it extra speed it can get from middle-point flying force ,e.g evertime a meteor revolves around a star at a certain angle it will be catapulted at greater speed back into space.

Theory sais as such that you can never predict the speed of an meteor ,there may be meteor's in existence that could reach earth from the outside of or solar system in a matter of hours.

There are afcourse also natural dettering factor's ,Jupiter being literaly the biggest one.There is not so much chance that a meteor will be on a direct heading with earth ,but the chance still exists.If it would be a real killer meteor heading for earth at a speed that it would only take hours to arrive earth ,then we could be possibly surprized by it and hit before we can react.

Note also that Size doesn't always matter that much ,depending on what angle a meteor enter's our hemisphere a smaller object might cause more damage than a somewhat bigger one.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, you can make some very educated presumtions.

But still only presumptions until we have more facts

Human emotions developed the way they did because of the nature of evolution on Earth. However, we cannot be certain that the evolution on another planet will be anything like that which has taken place here. Too many variables to make an accurate prediction.

Presumprions or deductions based on facts. You can derive some things by analysing things logically.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Fortunately it is much simpler than this, once a certain level of intelligence is reached evolution is pretty much constrained to the cerebral cortex if you will, the brain. Any further development will lead to better dexterity, higher level of intellect and possibly resistance to stress. We are never going to develop large teeth, fur, or other such features, we are past the physical evolution, we are turning back on it.

As for artificial evolution, no matter what race you take, no race here or anywhere would be willing to deprive themselves of emotions. Emotions drive everything, you can not escape them, and you live by them, so will any very intelligent alien lifeform. If you create beings who lack the similar emotions we have, they will be self destructive in many ways. Emotions are a part the logical process of decision making. You feel emotions like the AI in OFP runs through an IF statement and decides to flee. You can interpret any animal to be emotion less, because on the exterior you can not tap into their feelings/emotions, but they must have them, to some extent.

I'm not really arguing that an alien species will be devoid of emotion (seeing as how 'emotions' are simply human interpretations of instinct, and all creatures - sentient or otherwise - must have instinct to surivive, as you said), but rather that there exists the possibility that an alien species would not necessarily have the same emotions or level of emotional activity that humans do.

Emotions such as hate, for example, are necessary in a situation in which there are two competing species. If one of those species were to die off (for whatever reason), that would leave the other to evolve in relative peace, for perhaps another million years or so. There exists the possibility that the species that survived evolved "out" of the 'hate' emotion, for it was no longer necessary, and was potentially destructive within the social group. Just as emotions can evolve through biological/environmental necessity, so can they devolve for the same reason. For all we know, the alien species we eventually run into has been the only species on its planet for 200 million years - so for 200 million years it had been evolving without contact with another species. Or perhaps multiple species evolved on the same planet, but were isolated environmentally.

Seeing as that has never happened on Earth (thousands of different types of species evolved simultaneously, each influencing the others' path of evolution), we cannot predict the path of evolution on another planet.

Umm, I think you didn't read what I said, same types of emotions, different levels depending on lenght of evolution at a state of civilization.

And yes we can predict very well the evolution of sentient beings anywhere. Because nature is constant everywhere, physics, chemistry. I am not talking exact 1 to 1 features, but generally, we know for example that to use tools they had certain limbs, to carry stuff for survival, to see far and take the nutirition from flora ,they need to stand in the most efficient form, 2 legs. etc. Sorry, but nature analysed through logic dictates the evolution of these kinds of beings very well.

Quote[/b] ]Humans from different parts of the world developed similarily (incredibly similarly) because...

1. We all originated in the same place - Africa - from which we spread upwards, through the Mid-East, up to Europe, across Asia etc.

2. Therefore, our biology is exactly the same, regardless of where humans settled. For example, an Algerian is 99% biologically identical to an Eskimo (allowing room for unique DNA).

3. Environmental conditions on Earth are incredibly similar, relative to possible differences between Earth and an alien world.

Oxygen is everywhere, sunlight is everywhere (except for a few months in extreme latitudes), water is abundant.

An alien world might have an atmosphere composed largely of nitrogen, or any other gas you care to mention. The planet could be in a twin-sun system. The point here is that environment determines biology, biology determines emotion, therefore if the environment is different, the resulting biology and mental processes could be far different to those of humans.

Again you are not reading and thinking of what I am saying. You have just invented an argument to have with yourself. I did not say developed similarly, because that does not aid scientific analysis of the problem. I said they come to the same conclusions through decades of thought and seperate development.

Quote[/b] ]You're making some pretty big presumptions here. What if the entire race agrees that emotions are irrelevant? What if the race is, or has become a linked collective? There's no telling how alien society would work - it could be a forced decision. Yet again, its a possibilty, but an unknown.

I am making presumtions and you are not thinking of reality, like I said, the nature of the Universe simply dictates the behaviour and development of such beings, that would eventually BUILD a means of transportation to us. Emotions are difficult to comprehend, but basically, if you create a logical structure in a brain which for instance avoids the use of force on other beings of the same species, that set of rules becomes an emotion when analysis of that situation is taken. And if the brain has a set of rules not to mutalate it's own body, the second this thought or analysis of such a problem comes up, an emotion of disgust and pain is triggered. No way in hell you can get rid of emotions and still exist. Pure fiction, and lack of understanding of even your own brain process.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Well I can agree they might supress some emotions through evolution during a state of civilization, especially hatered and anger, but essentially what weare talking about are different levels of each emotion when compared to us. Never the less, logic which follows nature dictates all basic emotions, and the form of intelligent beings which we can recognize.

Nature is not particularly logical, it is chaotic and unpredictable. Emotions are necessary in certain situations, and it is logical for a species to have them, but it doesn't make their resulting effects logical. An alien species needn't be emotional to be intelligent - in fact, the employment of logical judgement and reasoning without emotional consideration could be argued to be a sign of a higher intelligence.

No, nature is by all means logical, ever notice that planets ar round everywhere you look. And that their suns give off energy, kind of predictable from our own solar system isn't it. And hey, there is even gravity on those plantes as well. There are still bonds between molecules just like on earth, it is endless. Nature is very logical.

Quote[/b] ]The problem here is this - you cannot presume the human race to be a template of all intelligent life throughout the universe. Undoubtedly some similarities between humans and an advanced alien race would be identifiable, necessarily so.

I am not presuming we are any template. Alien life froms are not built starting with out DNA no.

Quote[/b] ]But emotions aren't necessarily one of those characteristics that would be uniform across the universe, for the reasons I have outlined above. Environment is the major factor, and we cannot assume the environment on an alien world will be exactly like that of Earth. Even the slightest variation could lead to exaggerated differences between the two.

Yes the types of emitions would be uniform, so I disagree with you entirely on this subject. emotions coming from logical processes as a result of evolution, evolution being guided by uniform laws of nature=physics.

Quote[/b] ]Take the human race as an example. Think of human evolution as an experiment conducted in a lab. If we were to scrap the current experiment and run it again, there is only a small possibilty that the resulting dominant species (if there is one at all!) will be exactly the same as we are now.

I would like to see a simulation which goes as far as having the species develop spacecraft. Unfortunately, you can not hope to simulate and analyse emotions in any computer, and especially on todays piece of crap sequential processors. One of the "wonders" in the computer age is people still ignore the fact that brains are more like giant CPLD's than processors which conain a limited instruciton set and run through huge data sequentially from storage.

Quote[/b] ] After all, evolution is based on chance. Any minute difference in any minute event in the 3 billion years of evolution could throw the whole path off.

however, the species that builds spaceships and uses tools, will essentially come out to resemble us physically, and have the same kinds of emotions. Jsut remember, only what can survive and perform the function dictated but nature, does survive. And let me tell you, crocodiles which are extremely successfull are not in the space program are they? Yet chimpanses come much closer, notice the resemblence?

Quote[/b] ]Think of two intersecting lines. At one point (the intersection) the lines were on the same path, but any deviation away from that point and the eventual end of the lines (the nature of the dominant species) will be in much different positions.

If that path of evolution is not at the point of beings similar to ours, then it will not have life forms digging for ore, casting tools from metal, and building spacecraft. Whether or not a certain planets evolutionary process ever gets it as far as a life form resembling a human or chimp, that's what we can't determine. But we know that without such a life form, there will not be space travel.

Quote[/b] ]You talk about 'the laws of nature', but the only laws of nature we can observe and comment about are the ones taking place on Earth. There is nothing to say that the 'laws of nature' will be the same on another, life supporting planet.

Nope. Read above. Laws of Nature â„¢ are laws such as; to carry something you need opposable appendiges, to use tools you need a certain shape of limb, to move a lot of material across easily you need a wheel not a pyramid, for a life form to survive it should not try to eat itself.... the list is really endless, and dictates the evolutionary result for beings/life forms who are capable of building spacecraft, or analysing mathematical equations.

Quote[/b] ]

The simple fact is that, taking evolution into consideration, there are far too many variables to consider to come to any meaningful conclusion about intelligent life out there. We can reach a few, rather obvious conclusions, but the specifics (like emotion) would be mere speculation based on incredibly limited knowledge.

No, there are not too many variables to predict the general outcome of the types of beings with the abilities in question. To predict the evolutionary tree of the entire planet is quite an impossible task. However that is not the question at hand.

[bn880 5]

I think you are missing the point... without a proper brain they won't be smart enough to travel the distance starting from a planet. And anyway, BS is your asessment, since it is inevitable that animals who are smarter survive better, ebcause through the use of tools and passing of information a species can always survive better.

This is really 2 points.

1. A species that could travel from one planet to another would have to be intelligent.

Excluding bacteria/germs etc that could travel on asteroids etc I assume

2. Animals that are smarter survive better.

This is incorrect. My examples are crocodiles/alligators. They have remained virtually unchanged for millions of years, and surviving quite well thank you very much. The "idea" of evolution is not endless progression. It is to fit your environment perfectly and to survive. Crocodiles are far superior to Humans in these respects. They fit their environment much better than we do, they are top of their food chain, and they have no inherent reproductive flaws.

Crocs are just one example....look at bacteria/viruses. They have a far greater potential to survive massive climate change (the main threat to all species...other than other species), they reproduce effectively and they have been around for as far as back as the fossil record goes. I wouldn't call them smart....but I would say they survive better than any other form of life on Earth

You are all missing the point. thank you very much, and by accident (NO wait, by a logical process) I mentioned crocodiles in my explanation above.

The question at hand is NOT:

A) What kind of life form lives the longest on the planet

B) Is the entire evolutionary tree on another planet identical to ours, or different.

The question IS:

What kind of life form is expected to have an ability to construct or develop a means to travel to earth, or even travel in their own solar system.

Oh wait, knowing you sci-fi types, they probably don't have a solar system.

[Baron von Beer 0]

Wow, so if I read that trajectory data correctly, this thing will come to within 3,739,946.775 km. Sure, that is far relative to a human, but in space? That is nothin at all! A degree here or there difference in it's orbit, and it could have made Earth go BOOM! Luckily it isn't on an intersecting orbit with Earth. However, there are a whole bunch that are, just a question of timing of when both it, and Earth, occupy that intersection at the same time. Statistically even with thousands of such objects, the chances are in the minute fractions of a percent, but it has happened before, and will happen again. Just a question of when, and how big. I propose a gigantic robotic arm with an even bigger "fly swatter" to deal with such threats. If that should be unobtainable, then a large inflatable rubber cushion, as Stuntman use, only bigger. (Yes I know, the world would be a much safer place if I were calling the shots. Everyone would have left the planet to save their lives, leaving it quite safe for me. )

[theavonlady 2]

Wow, so if I read that trajectory data correctly, this thing will come to within 3,739,946.775 km.

Thanks. I've canceled the family order for crash helmets.

[Baron von Beer 0]

hehe, that's assuming I did the math right.. tend to always hit an extra key when using the windows calculator. (and everytime I promise myself NEXT time I'll use the mouse instead of keyboard..)

Hmm, if it IS wrong, I'm a shoe in for NASA's deep space exploration division!

[bn880 5]

Heh, here is kind of a puzzle...

we assume there is a life form that will be using tools to create a means of space travel, therefore it will need something like this:

And through evolution, how would such a life form manage to displace these material carriers to where they need them?

Remember, if you don't carry materials and don't use tools, you don't build space craft.

[theavonlady 2]

/bump

How can we defend the earth from these educators?

Quote[/b] ]A meteor is coming and we're all going to die, British teacher tells pupils

Thu Nov 18, 7:06 PM ET AFP

LONDON (AFP) - A British schoolteacher, attempting to motivate her pupils into making the most of each day, told them a meteorite was about to smash into the Earth and that they should all return home to say goodbye to their families, a report said.

The teacher at the high school in Manchester, northwest England, only realised her lecture was misjudged when many of the assembled teenagers started crying, the Sun newspaper said in its Friday edition.

According to the report, the unnamed female teacher made the announcement to around 250 pupils at St Matthew's Roman Catholic High School during their regular morning assembly.

Saying she had bad news, the teacher announced that a meteor would strike the Earth in 10 days' time, and that they should return home and say their "final farewells" to their parents.

After the crowd of 13- and 14-year-olds looked on in horror, and many burst into tears, the teacher swiftly explained that she was only trying to encourage them to "seize the day".

"Some of the children were 100 percent convinced they were going to die," the father of one child told the paper.

"God only knows what this teacher thought she was doing."