The four horseman of the apocalypse, now

[theavonlady 2]

Is it insulting if its true?

Well, with that winking smiley, I thought you were calling him a half blind smirking liar.

[mr. Duck 0]

Well let me interfere here.  

This is what I believe, don't try to change my mind cause you won't succeed. Anyway, God is a God. And as such, he is almighty with no beginning and no end. If God had a beginning then he has to have an end. And if that worked like that then God wouldn't be a God at all but just an alien.

Ah well, just read this. I think that dude can explain things better than me.  

God bless everyone!

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Anyone that believes or follows a philosophy just because their parents did so is a fool.  I don't listen to fools.

And he's obviously talking nonsense because anyone with even high school level education can find hundreds of contradictions in the bible. That is pure propoganda.

[denoir 0]

Anyone that believes or follows a philosophy just because their parents did so is a fool.

Not at all, it's just a question of frame of reference. In the end we are all individuals and our perception of the world comes from the data processed by our brain. If you think that what your extensory senses tell you give you the complete picture, then science will give an adequate picture. If you think that there is more to the world than what we can directly experience by our external senses, then religion can give a meaningful picture for you. Either way you can't prove what is right. As far as I know, I might be the only thing in existance and all of the universe is just a product of my internal processes.

Quote[/b] ]And he's obviously talking nonsense because anyone with even high school level education can find hundreds of contradictions in the bible. That is pure propoganda.

You can't attack religion by reason. Religion is not reasonable or rational in any way. In the end it is our individual perception of the world that matters. Nobody says that your picture of how things work have to agree with the world view that others have. The problem with religion is that it seldom recognizes its boundaries but tries to enforce an absolute world view that all people don't agree with.

[Major Fubar 0]

I just don't get why people have to be so intolerent of each others beliefs...Can't atheists just accept that some people want to believe, and vice versa?

No, there isn't any hard scientific proof that God or any such thing exists...which is why religion requires faith...if God regularly appeared on earth and threw his weight around, it would hardly require the same amount of trust and belief to be religious. The Bible points out that god gave man free will, which includes the freedom to believe or not believe.

There is no hard scientific proof that extraterrestrial life exists either, but would you dismiss entirely the possibility that it could? Do you consider the people of the SETI programme to be fools the same way you consider those who are religious?

Like I said before, if I were to sum up my beliefs, it would proabbly be as an agnostic - I don't subscribe to any particualr religion, but I don't dismiss the fact that a God or Gods and an afterlife could exist.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Religion is a huge drag weight on humankind. It leads to division, hatred and intolerance. It impedes scientific progress that could make the world a better place for all. It causes innocents to suffer and is completely unnessesary.

Quote[/b] ]Either way you can't prove what is right.

Yes you can.

Quote[/b] ]You can't attack religion by reason.

Watch me.

Quote[/b] ]which is why religion requires faith

Thats a handy little get out of jail free card, isn't it. Not at all what you'd expect as an excuse made up by the fake holyman who doesn't want his gravy train to stop :rolleyes:

Quote[/b] ]There is no hard scientific proof that extraterrestrial life exists either, but would you dismiss entirely the possibility that it could? Do you consider the people of the SETI programme to be fools the same way you consider those who are religious?

There is at least a possibility of extraterrestrial life. Religions are simply lies.

Look at it this way:

If a guy was wandering about the streets hallucinating that everyone else around him was a giraffe with knives for teeth that were trying to kill him -and was attempting to kill them - would you say that man's beliefs were

a) wrong

b) harmful?

So whats so different about an irrational belief that is if anything more insane?

[Tamme 0]

Religion is a huge drag weight on humankind.  It leads to division, hatred and intolerance.  It impedes scientific progress that could make the world a better place for all.  It causes innocents to suffer and is completely unnessesary.

That sure isn't chrisianity you're speaking about. It never has and it never will affect science in anyway. Read the 10 Commandments (or whatever you call them in english) Don't you think that living by them would make the world a better place?

[Major Fubar 0]

Religion is a huge drag weight on humankind.  It leads to division, hatred and intolerance.  It impedes scientific progress that could make the world a better place for all.  It causes innocents to suffer and is completely unnessesary.

That sure isn't chrisianity you're speaking about. It never has and it never will affect science in anyway. Read the 10 Commandments (or whatever you call them in english) Don't you think that living by them would make the world a better place?

Hmmm, I think a number of people executed for saying the world was round or that the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe might disagree with you

But these days, science is hardly held up by religious beliefs...but sometimes by moral beliefs (i.e. the moral argument against cloning).

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Religion is a huge drag weight on humankind.  It leads to division, hatred and intolerance.  It impedes scientific progress that could make the world a better place for all.  It causes innocents to suffer and is completely unnessesary.

That sure isn't chrisianity you're speaking about. It never has and it never will affect science in anyway. Read the 10 Commandments (or whatever you call them in english) Don't you think that living by them would make the world a better place?

Ever hear of a chap called Gallileo?

There was a time when everyone lived by the bible... it was known as the Dark Ages and was one of the worst periods in human history.

[Tamme 0]

Religion is a huge drag weight on humankind.  It leads to division, hatred and intolerance.  It impedes scientific progress that could make the world a better place for all.  It causes innocents to suffer and is completely unnessesary.

That sure isn't chrisianity you're speaking about. It never has and it never will affect science in anyway. Read the 10 Commandments (or whatever you call them in english) Don't you think that living by them would make the world a better place?

Ever hear of a chap called Gallileo?

There was a time when everyone lived by the bible... it was known as the Dark Ages and was one of the worst periods in human history.

They didn't live by the bible, they lived by what the pope and the other leaders said the bible says.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

They didn't live by the bible, they lived by what the pope and the other leaders said the bible says.

Which is different from how christians live now how? If you are trying to say that only you know how to interpret the book and everyone else is wrong, you're just deluded. If you can interpret the book any way you like it loses ALL worth. By the way, they would say that YOU are not living by what the bible says. Thats the 'beauty' of the bible, its so ambiguous and vague and self contradictory it can be (and has been) used to justify genocide, slavery, treating women as second class citizens, racism, homophobia, torture and other unspeakable cruelties. These are all backed up by quotes from the bible (and not just from the OT).

*You* don't get to call everyone else that has different interpretations of the bible wrong, they are no more wrong and no less christians than you.

[Tamme 0]

What I was trying to say: The people couldn't read the bible 'cause it was written in latin and not many understood latin or was abel to read anyways. So their leaders could interpret it anyway they wanted. ie. "You give all your money to me and you go to heaven" Today that is not possible, 'cause the majority of the people can read. Therefore noone can say that the bible says stuff like: "All forum members give their bank account numbers to Tamme and he'll take good care of your money" You can always go and check and then without the fear of decapitation say: "I think you're wrong, there's nothing like that in there" and then you have a constructive discussion not public execution.

[Tamme 0]

Thats the 'beauty' of the bible, its so ambiguous and vague and self contradictory it can be (and has been) used to justify genocide, slavery, treating women as second class citizens, racism, homophobia, torture and other unspeakable cruelties.  These are all backed up by quotes from the bible (and not just from the OT).

AFAIK you can't back up anything like that with quotes from Jesus. As I said in my previous post, today you can go and check if that's what Jesus teached.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

AFAIK you can't back up anything like that with quotes from Jesus. As I said in my previous post, today you can go and check if that's what Jesus teached.

But you only think that because you've interpreted it in a certain way. Other people find exactly what they need in the bible in order to justify their actions. That's the whole point, it's so ambiguous you can read any hidden meaning into it.

[Tamme 0]

AFAIK you can't back up anything like that with quotes from Jesus. As I said in my previous post, today you can go and check if that's what Jesus teached.

But you only think that because you've interpreted it in a certain way. Other people find exactly what they need in the bible in order to justify their actions. That's the whole point, it's so ambiguous you can read any hidden meaning into it.

Should you be looking any hidden meanings in his teachings? He puts everything so clear and simple that you shouldn't be looking for anything hidden. He does not in anyway justify these cruelties that Hurlothrumbo mentioned. Jesuses teachings are so clear and simple that there's no need for any guess work.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

Should you be looking any hidden meanings in his teachings? He puts everything so clear and simple that you shouldn't be looking for anything hidden. He does not in anyway justify these cruelties that Hurlothrumbo mentioned. Jesuses teachings are so clear and simple that there's no need for any guess work.

I didn't mean that there was a 'hidden meaning' in there, more that people read these so called 'clear teachings' and take them to mean one thing. Whilst someone else reads the same 'clear teachings' and takes them to mean another. It's all down to how you interpret what was written. In my opinion, it is so self-contradictory that there is a wide margin for self interpretation. Just like there is with most books I guess.

[Tamme 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's all down to how you interpret what was written. In my opinion, it is so self-contradictory that there is a wide margin for self interpretation. Just like there is with most books I guess.

And modern art.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

And modern art.

Indeed, but people don't tend to go to war and commit other such nastiness, over their interpretation of the latest work by Damian Hurst.

[Tamme 0]

And modern art.

Indeed, but people don't tend to go to war and commit other such nastiness, over their interpretation of the latest work by Damian Hurst.  

Maybe someone should try that...

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Thats the 'beauty' of the bible, its so ambiguous and vague and self contradictory it can be (and has been) used to justify genocide, slavery, treating women as second class citizens, racism, homophobia, torture and other unspeakable cruelties.  These are all backed up by quotes from the bible (and not just from the OT).

AFAIK you can't back up anything like that with quotes from Jesus. As I said in my previous post, today you can go and check if that's what Jesus teached.

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.†Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 11:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God.(The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.†Revelations 19:20-21

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.†Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

I have more.

[mr. Duck 0]

Ya, I only told my views... It's not like I'm trying to convert you (not that I would succeed, me can't do that), but tell me baron. Why are you so intolerant against my beliefs? Why can't you be like fubar? I respect you're views and tolerate it, why can't you?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Its not like I'm going to come to your house and kill you. Your beliefs are simply stupid and useless.

Much like why you don't respect the beliefs of psychopathic serial killers that they should be able to kill whooever they want, I don't respect similarly insane and hateful beliefs.

[mr. Duck 0]

Its not like I'm going to come to your house and kill you.  Your beliefs are simply stupid and useless.

Much like why you don't respect the beliefs of psychopathic serial killers that they should be able to kill whooever they want, I don't respect similarly insane and hateful beliefs.

If christianity is indeed about hate and killing, then the firs thing I oughta do right now is hunt you down and give you a slow death. Cause we christians follow Jesus and he's our example...

Jesus said to love the next person as you would love you're self (sorry if this sound strange, hard time explaining here).

Anyway, I think I'll quit now, you will always disrespect my beliefs, no matter what I'll say to you.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Either way you can't prove what is right.

Yes you can.

Ok. Let me see the proof then. Perhaps you should read up on some Kant before attempting. His argument is very simple. Our picture of the world relies entirely on our five senses. You can always imagine a god that manipulates those senses so that they provide an incorrect picture. There is no way you can prove or disprove that since it is on a meta level beyond our reach.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You can't attack religion by reason.

Watch me.

Then you're no better than the religious zealots that try to explain scientific facts through religion.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Our senses percieve the universe in a way which is both the same for everyone and consistent. Our instruments verify this. If individuals were being manipulated, or basic physical laws were being manipulated, this would show up as differences in observations and results of tests. It doesn't.

The mistake you are using is confusing the mathematical definition of proof with the common usage: its impossible to 'prove mathmetically' anything except maths and some physics. Its possible to 'prove beyond reasonable doubt' anything which has sufficient evidence.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You can't stop serial killers by locking them up

watch me

Then you're no better than the serial killers themselves