The Iraq Thread 2

[FSPilot 0]

,July 24 2003,00:15]

Quote[/b] ]I beg to differ. I go to unusual lengths to try and find justifications for some of the stuff our current government does. Notice I said government, not country. The United States is a great nation with great people in it, and nothing can change that, even you contributing your genes to the melting pot couldn't change that. Our government, however, I have no illusions about.

I am -not- criticising anybody for criticising TBA.

Quote[/b] ]*buzzer* Wrong. This holiday change was the first official act of the Iraqi interrim government, which is composed entirely of Iraqis.

Who were hand-picked by Americans and are backed by the Americans.

Gollum1

Quote[/b] ]For once, I almost agree with FSPilot in these last few pages...on SOME points.

Stop the presses!!!

[theavonlady 2]

I think there's more firepower on this thread than there was at Uday and Qusay's place yesterday.

[DracoPaladore 0]

I think there's more firepower on this thread than there was at Uday and Qusay's place yesterday.

I think the worst part about U&Q's death is that now they will be considered matyrs among those who they faught with. This can only mean that Fedayeen(sp?) will probobly increase the severity of attacks and try and cause more and more damage.

Its one thing to capture them and demoralize troops, its another to kill them and make them matyrs.

While the civilians may think differently, I'm guessing the attacks will incrase in regularity.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]I am -not- criticising anybody for criticising TBA.

Riiiiiggggghhht...

Quote[/b] ]Who were hand-picked by Americans and are backed by the Americans.

No, they were handpicked by Bush Administration Officials which means they are backed by the Bush Administration. Which also, coincidentally means that you've been criticizing me for criticizing the Bush Administration. Which of course completely contradicts what you just said above, but hey? Why let facts get in the way of bullheaded stubbornness.

[Gollum1 0]

Gollum1

Quote[/b] ]For once, I almost agree with FSPilot in these last few pages...on SOME points.

Stop the presses!!!

It´s "press"  

And posting the same things over and over again doesn´t make you some kind of exclusive celebrity...

[Akira 0]

I think one FSPilot needs to look at my ACIARP post on the last page, print it out, study it, and tape it to his monitor.

[FSPilot 0]

Tex

Quote[/b] ]Riiiiiggggghhht...

Yes, that's right.

Quote[/b] ]No, they were handpicked by Bush Administration Officials which means they are backed by the Bush Administration. Which also, coincidentally means that you've been criticizing me for criticizing the Bush Administration. Which of course completely contradicts what you just said above, but hey? Why let facts get in the way of bullheaded stubbornness.

So, in other words, "No they weren't hand picked by Americans, they were handpicked by the Bush administration!"

Akira

Quote[/b] ]I think one FSPilot needs to look at my ACIARP post on the last page, print it out, study it, and tape it to his monitor.

And I think you need to unplug your computer from the internet permanently.

[Akira 0]

Tex

Quote[/b] ]Riiiiiggggghhht...

Yes, that's right.

Quote[/b] ]No, they were handpicked by Bush Administration Officials which means they are backed by the Bush Administration. Which also, coincidentally means that you've been criticizing me for criticizing the Bush Administration. Which of course completely contradicts what you just said above, but hey? Why let facts get in the way of bullheaded stubbornness.

So, in other words, "No they weren't hand picked by Americans, they were handpicked by the Bush administration!"

Akira

Quote[/b] ]I think one FSPilot needs to look at my ACIARP post on the last page, print it out, study it, and tape it to his monitor.

And I think you need to unplug your computer from the internet permanently.

If anything this post still clearly shows that you are unable to take the mental leap and seperate the Bush Administration from the rest of America and American life.

I swear. Sometimes I think this is actually a foreign agent paid to come in here and make all American's look like asses. But alas. I know that is just a pipe dream.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]So, in other words, "No they weren't hand picked by Americans, they were handpicked by the Bush administration!"

I'm an American, I didn't get a say. Neither did you, and neither did any Americans except the ones in the Bush Administration. What is your malfunction? If I criticize an American, I'm automatically persona non grata? I'll bet if I criticized Clinton (who's an American as well) you wouldn't have a problem.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Back to the topic you whimsical chicken!

I think that the initial idea was not to kill the targets. But when it turned out that the brothers could hide behind fortified glass that could not be penetrated by the Spec Ops then  the american forces took the decision to use missiles

Why did they not wait? Because I guess they assumed that otherwise the brothers could escape. (e.g. tunnel). The risk to loose the two out of sight was probably too high!

This is probably also the reason why so many soldiers were activated. The entire area had to be secured so that there would be no way out for the two.

[E6Hotel 0]

I think that the initial idea was not to kill the targets. But when it turned out that the brothers could hide behind fortified glass that could not be penetrated by the Spec Ops then  the american forces took the decision to use missiles

This is my opinion, too (more or less).  If this raid had been planned as a "hit" from the beginning we'd have sent a flight of F-18's or a wave of Tomahawks.

Edited for quotational difficulties.

Semper Fi

[Blaegis 0]

I think that the initial idea was not to kill the targets. But when it turned out that the brothers could hide behind fortified glass that could not be penetrated by the Spec Ops then  the american forces took the decision to use missiles

This is my opinion, too (more or less).  If this raid had been planned as a "hit" from the beginning we'd have sent a flight of F-18's or a wave of Tomahawks.

Edited for quotational difficulties.

Semper Fi

As I said above, the CAS assets assigned to the operation were not used for fear of collateral damage. Rightly so, since the Americans are in enough trouble on the ground as it is without pissing off the Iraqis with more collateral damage. Besides, if you follow the line of reasoning that the operation wasn't planned as a hit, then you arrive to the conclusion that it turned out a cock-up, since you'd do a lot better with a quiet Delta (or another SOCOM unit) snatch-n-grab as opposed to deploying half of the 101st there.

Alternatively, if the objective was a hit, then the op went just fine. Based on the available info so far, I think that's exactly what happened.

[denoir 0]

(BBC)

200 soldiers

Mk19 Automatic Grenade Launchers

.50 Cals

AT4's

Attack helicopters with FFARs

TOWs

That's what fight a mechanized battalion with, not four men locked up in a bedroom armed with small arms.

I mean you have to admit that it is a bit excessive, even by US military standards.

[FSPilot 0]

For all the people who still just can't get it: <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>I AM NOT CRITICISING ANYONE FOR CRITICISING TBA</span>

Read that over and over again until you understand it.

I am criticising the people who go through great lengths to criticise everything American troops have been doing overseas.  Including shooting back at people who were shooting at them.

Blaegis

Quote[/b] ]As I said above, the CAS assets assigned to the operation were not used for fear of collateral damage. Rightly so, since the Americans are in enough trouble on the ground as it is without pissing off the Iraqis with more collateral damage. Besides, if you follow the line of reasoning that the operation wasn't planned as a hit, then you arrive to the conclusion that it turned out a cock-up, since you'd do a lot better with a quiet Delta (or another SOCOM unit) snatch-n-grab as opposed to deploying half of the 101st there.

There were CAS assets used in this operation.

denoir

Quote[/b] ]

I don't know about you, but that doesnt look like an OH-58 to me.

[E6Hotel 0]

As I said above, the CAS assets assigned to the operation were not used for fear of collateral damage.

Fear of collateral damage?  I believe that's the first time we've been accused of that.  My apologies for missing your earlier comment, I skimmed through the "FS vs. the World" tangent a few pages back.

Besides, if you follow the line of reasoning that the operation wasn't planned as a hit, then you arrive to the conclusion that it turned out a cock-up, since you'd do a lot better with a quiet Delta (or another SOCOM unit) snatch-n-grab as opposed to deploying half of the 101st there.

Nevertheless, addressing the occupants with a bullhorn, then knocking on the door and attempting to search the house before drawing and returning fire is inconsistent with a raid solely intended to kill the targets.  

Out of curiosity, if this raid was a straight-up hit, what would have happened if Q & U had surrendered?    

One other point re. less-than-lethal alternatives:  Based purely  on my previous experiences, CS can't be used as it's considered a "chemical weapon."  

Semper Fi

Edited due to genetic predisposition for misspelling "curiosity."

[Blaegis 0]

Blaegis

Quote[/b] ]As I said above, the CAS assets assigned to the operation were not used for fear of collateral damage. Rightly so, since the Americans are in enough trouble on the ground as it is without pissing off the Iraqis with more collateral damage. Besides, if you follow the line of reasoning that the operation wasn't planned as a hit, then you arrive to the conclusion that it turned out a cock-up, since you'd do a lot better with a quiet Delta (or another SOCOM unit) snatch-n-grab as opposed to deploying half of the 101st there.

There were CAS assets used in this operation.

For the love of god, do you actually read other people's posts? I know the CAS assets were used, however the A-10s (you know, the ones capable of dropping LGBs you mentioned earlier) were not - for fear of collateral damage. So, even though IMO the op was a hit they could not go in with everything they had...

[FSPilot 0]

But your argument still falls apart. If they were afraid of civilian casualties they wouldn't of used CAS in the first place.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

But your argument still falls apart.  If they were afraid of civilian casualties they wouldn't of used CAS in the first place.

There's CAS, and then there's CAS. They didn't use anything larger than 2.75 inch rockets. That's a big leap from thousand pound bombs.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

But your argument still falls apart.  If they were afraid of civilian casualties they wouldn't of used CAS in the first place.

Have you ever played OFP?

[Akira 0]

But your argument still falls apart.  If they were afraid of civilian casualties they wouldn't of used CAS in the first place.

Holy crap I can't believe I just read that!

Are you not listening? The were launched with the option to use them. And then were decided against using them after all in order to avoid collateral damage! The vehicles that would NOT cause collateral damage ie less fire power less surrounding damage...WERE used.

Holy crap!      

Also. Straight from the horses mouth.

Bush Ignores Assassination Ban

[Blaegis 0]

Thank you, Tex. For a moment I was worried my head was going to explode.

Edit: Re: E6Hotel's comments

Now that I stop to think about it, a smaller-scale SOCOM operation would've been better regardless of whether the objective was to eliminate or capture U&Q. Perhaps there were availablility constraints.

And you're serious about CS being classified as a chemical weapon? Hm, IMO it'd do a lot of good to re-think that policy.

[FSPilot 0]

Tex

Quote[/b] ]There's CAS, and then there's CAS. They didn't use anything larger than 2.75 inch rockets. That's a big leap from thousand pound bombs.

A laser guided bomb is more accurate than an optically aimed rocket.

Akira

Quote[/b] ]Holy crap I can't believe I just read that!

Are you not listening? The were launched with the option to use them. And then were decided against using them after all in order to avoid collateral damage! The vehicles that would NOT cause collateral damage ie less fire power less surrounding damage...WERE used.

Rockets are less accurate than LGBs. A rocket could easilly of missed while a small LGB could of precisely destroyed the entire house with no damage to anything around it. 500lb bomb could of done it.

[denoir 0]

It's great that you know more about this stuff than the US military comanders in place:

Quote[/b] ]1300: Forces fire 10 Humvee-mounted TOW missiles into house - although commanders decide against using Apache helicopters and A10 planes because of the risk of collateral damage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3090639.stm

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Here's my theory:

We got the intel that U & Q were hiding out in this building, and thought it was credible- however, the commander in the area didn't have any special forces to draw upon. So, instead of waiting for the request for SF to go through channels along with the possibility of the Bobsy Twins escaping, the commander decided to do it with the resources he had available (which were formidable, but not specialized). They obviously surrounded the compound, demanded entry, and when that was refused, they assaulted it like an infantry company is trained to assault a fixed position: bombard it, and then kick the doors down and shoot them in the face. Definitely a case of killing a fly with a sledgehammer, but the commander obviously realized that A) he didn't have the proper troops to handle the job the right way, and B) that this was a big opportunity, and waiting for the right troops might end up in the entire operation being blown.

[E6Hotel 0]

Now that I stop to think about it, a smaller-scale SOCOM operation would've been better regardless of whether the objective was to eliminate or capture U&Q. Perhaps there were availablility constraints.

This assumes that we knew exactly how many people were in the villa and surrounding area.  As it turns out there weren't very many.  On the other hand, WHAT IF a small Delta team had been sent in against 100 or 200 Fedayeen and/or RG troops?  Eagle Claw II, anyone?

An overwhelming show of force could have been intended to actually prevent a gunfight.    

And you're serious about CS being classified as a chemical weapon?

Deathly serious, again based on my experiences.  I have no idea what ROE's the raid soldiers were using.  

Hm, IMO it'd do a lot of good to re-think that policy.

Mine, too.  But I just work here.

Semper Fi