The Dogs of War

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 27 2003,18:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And there was even a video on reuters showing wounded taken to a Spanish base hospital. There were about a handful of them - no more.<span id='postcolor'>

What about those 50 that were wounded in that FF incident yesteday, hurt by a fragmentation shell. You posted the link. Did they magically heal? FYI Rammstein has been recieving tens of flights carrying wounded. Do you think they pack one person in each starlifter?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Other military people here dispute your numbers from their confidential sources. <span id='postcolor'>

Their confidential coalition sources, yes. Anybody of them in military intel?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's not a reporter anywhere around who can say that he's seen dozens of coalition KIAs or mass numbers of wounded that would figure with your top secret statistics.

<span id='postcolor'>

As they have clearly stated they are not allowed to report such things. A Swedish embedded reporter said this morning that there were about 30 coalition casualties in last night's fighting near Najaf.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 27 2003,19:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What about those 50<span id='postcolor'>

I believe I said around 40 and later reports said around 30.

You know, you're as statistically deviated as Sky News.  

Ouch.

I believe reports said 2 were seriously wounded but they were out of danger and the rest were lightly injured.

I'm sure they're not all in the same place but I still would expect a lot more on that ship.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FYI Rammstein has been recieving tens of flights carrying wounded.<span id='postcolor'>

How many flights? 10? 20? 30? 40? Source? BTW, are they taking over Iraqis (civilians/military) who can't be handled back in Iraq?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you think they pack one person in each starlifter?<span id='postcolor'>That was no Piper Cub that the Spanish handled. Very empty and not many ambulances were waiting on the tarmac.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

The heaviest bombing of the north of Iraq so far has taken place today along Iraqi lines.

Al-Jazeera and the Iraqi info. ministry have reported (and shown footage) of a second downed Apache downed near Najaf

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were no reports of casualties on either side during the 30 minute firefight.

Now does anybody with any slight form of military experience find this credible? 30 minutes of fire exchange up close ("The bullets were hitting real close, within inches of us") without any casualties?<span id='postcolor'>

I'd need more detailed info before making an estimate.  Here are my S.W.A.G.s, based on W.A.A.G.:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">NORTH OF NASSIRIYA, Iraq (Reuters) - Convoys of trucks hauling food and ammunition to troops spearheading the U.S.-led thrust into Iraq are looking increasingly like a chink in the invasion force's armor.

In a surprise attack witnessed by Reuters on Wednesday, a small group of Iraqis using guerrilla tactics pinned down a column of some 80 vehicles supporting U.S. Marine combat units.<span id='postcolor'>

How small was this group?  If we're talking a squad for example, they wouldn't be able to do much against an 80-vehicle convoy.  How close were the ambushers to the convoy?  50m?  250m?  500m?  I have no idea.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gunfire crackling from mist-shrouded trees by the roadside sent Marines dashing for cover behind vehicles, before tanks smashed through the undergrowth to hunt down the attackers.<span id='postcolor'>

When it comes to concealment, "mist-shrouded trees" work both ways.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"We couldn't see who was shooting at us," said Lance-Corporal John Grimes, 19, who dived back into his truck without firing a shot at the hidden assailants, his combat fatigues splattered with mud.<span id='postcolor'>

If you can't see them, they usually can't see you.  It sounds to me like a group of truck drivers got bounced and had the common sense to take cover.  In addition, this guy didn't return any shots.  If that's typical, it would be difficult to inflict any casualties.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"The bullets were hitting real close, within inches of us," he told Reuters after the raid, north of the town of Nassiriya.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sure they felt close, especially to a motor-T bubba that's never been in combat... whether they were or not, I wasn't there.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The attack, the first against this U.S. Marine truck platoon since the war began last Thursday, showed that a group of perhaps 10 men with assault rifles could temporarily disrupt a convoy backed by tanks, helicopters and armored personnel carriers.

There were no reports of casualties on either side during the 30 minute firefight, but the battle strained nerves among Marine drivers, many of whom had never been in combat before.

<span id='postcolor'>

EDIT:  OOPS!

Semper Fi  (hangs head in shame)

[bn880 5]

Othin and E6Hotel, your sources ARE from the coalition, therefore they ARE probably propaganda. Denoirs and Bals sources are not from Iraq nor the coalition, so I trust them to be accurate.

Enjoy

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 27 2003,12:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's not a reporter anywhere around who can say that he's seen dozens of coalition KIAs or mass numbers of wounded that would figure with your top secret statistics.

<span id='postcolor'>

As they have clearly stated they are not allowed to report such things. A Swedish embedded reporter said this morning that there were about 30 coalition casualties in last night's fighting near Najaf.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly! I'm not pointing any finger but someone is intent on spreading coalition propaganda, someone with a lot of apparent resentment towards arabs.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 27 2003,18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Their confidential coalition sources, yes. Anybody of them in military intel?<span id='postcolor'>

Ah yes, military intel.

Umm, when can we expect that 1,000 vehicle armored convoy that left from Baghdad yesterday?  

When it comes to casualty figures, I'll stick with the guys and gals that have to tag and bag the bodies, thx.

Semper Fi

[Tydium 0]

Al-Jazeera have shown a video of a downed apache.

Reuters

Sky News

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

this is pretty nasty:

"In this image from video, a U.S. Army Paladin artillery vehicle explodes due to a misfire inside the vehicle during a firefight with Iraqi forces north of Najaf, Iraq." (CNN ,phot-AP)

owch

Bn880- Everyone really respects you for your totally impartial and open approach to media and information analysis. I for one

hang on your every carefully thought out and weighed up word. Its usually just the one or two words but oh what words they are! I can only aspire to the kind of cold automatic detachment and brilliantly incisive and informative one sentence summaries that you so perfectly shape in your

pin sharp mind! Keep up the good work!

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 27 2003,18:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Othin and E6Hotel, your sources ARE from the coalition, therefore they ARE probably propaganda.  Denoirs and Bals sources are not from Iraq nor the coalition, so I trust them to be accurate.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, my source is a one-on-one communication from a friendship going back twelve years from a person actually involved in processing Marine KIA's.

Yesterday, B & D's military intel network was reporting that Royal Marines had been ordered to murder noncombatants in the town of Basra.

Trust whoever you like.

Semper Fi

[foxer 0]

............

casualties

Function:noun

Inflected Form:plural -ties

Date:15th century

3 a : a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action  

So it doesn't just mean death.Now is DOD covering on the injury/wounded soldiers ? I believe so.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 27 2003,19:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this is pretty nasty:

"In this image from video, a U.S. Army Paladin artillery vehicle explodes due to a misfire inside the vehicle during a firefight with Iraqi forces north of Najaf, Iraq." (CNN ,phot-AP)<span id='postcolor'>

CNN and AP will now be banned from covergae and taken off the airwaives for publishing anti-coalition propaganda.

Go on. Tell 'em, Denoir.

[Guest]

Stop pushing it Avon.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 27 2003,20:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Stop pushing it Avon.<span id='postcolor'>

Why? You have a secret button that can post restrict me or something?!

Er - no - wait!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Mar. 27 2003,12:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, my source is a one-on-one communication from a friendship going back twelve years from a person actually involved in processing Marine KIA's.

Yesterday, B & D's military intel network was reporting that Royal Marines had been ordered to murder noncombatants in the town of Basra.

Trust whoever you like.

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

That's always good advice.

I'm certainly not saying your friend or you is making propaganda, but it may start at the top, the information may not be complete. I still appreciate your source, I'm not in any way trying to imply that I or others don't find it useful.

[turms 0]

For those who still think that the Shi'iites are on USA side,read this . Article also gives a hint on what happened (or did not happen) in Basra

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ Mar. 27 2003,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who still think that the Shi'iites are on USA side,read this . Article also gives a hint on what happened (or did not happen) in Basra<span id='postcolor'>

That link is kinda BS.First anything coming outta iraq is BS.So they don't support US/UK ? I doubt that,i believe their scared to come out how we let like 60,000 of them die ,when we say we would support them.So i'm thinking they think we will leave them again.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Mar. 27 2003,20:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ Mar. 27 2003,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who still think that the Shi'iites are on USA side,read this . Article also gives a hint on what happened (or did not happen) in Basra<span id='postcolor'>

That link is kinda BS.First anything coming outta iraq is BS.So they don't support US/UK ? I doubt that,i believe their scared to come out how we let like 60,000 of them die ,when we say we would support them.So i'm thinking they think we will leave them again.<span id='postcolor'>

I think it is a very good Reuters article. What some people here don't seem to understand that while people there might not like Saddam, they hate the US and the US involvement in the Mid East. I don't know where you get the delusion that they like you there. These are territories where Osama bin Laden is a hero and you are the "Great Satan".

The question in the end is who they hate more, Saddam or USA. And I think we've gotten that question answered by now.

... unless you wish to claim that a couple of thousand of Iraqi paramilitary forces are forcing 1,500,000 people in Basra to support Iraq.

And this is a fact obviously entirely overlooked by the US/UK military planners. If there is any city where they really hate Saddam it's Basra. But apparently they hate the US even more.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 27 2003,21<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Mar. 27 2003,20:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ Mar. 27 2003,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who still think that the Shi'iites are on USA side,read this . Article also gives a hint on what happened (or did not happen) in Basra<span id='postcolor'>

That link is kinda BS.First anything coming outta iraq is BS.So they don't support US/UK ? I doubt that,i believe their scared to come out how we let like 60,000 of them die ,when we say we would support them.So i'm thinking they think we will leave them again.<span id='postcolor'>

I think it is a very good Reuters article. What some people here don't seem to understand that while people there might not like Saddam, they hate the US and the US involvement in the Mid East. I don't know where you get the delusion that they like you there. These are territories where Osama bin Laden is a hero and you are the "Great Satan".

The question in the end is who they hate more, Saddam or USA. And I think we've gotten that question answered by now.

... unless you wish to claim that a couple of thousand of Iraqi paramilitary forces are forcing 1,500,000 people in Basra to support Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Give it up Denoir. I've tried to tell several of these people that they might not be considered as the saviour of the free world in the middle east - especially not in Iraq. It just doesn't add up for a person that obviously choses to swallow Washingtons point of view. Some people just want simple answers: good or evil, wrong or right, black or white - and in between there is nothing!

This will prove to be a problem with the coalitions warfare - but ultimately it will make life difficult and dangorous for the military administration when the war is over. I'm sort of happy they didn't - but the coalition should have used social anthropologists instead of neoconservative hawks and military strategists only in the planning of the warfare.

[tracy_t 0]

It's scandalous how the so-called "news" sources like the BBC & CNN cover up coalition disasters and losses. On the BBC page it looks like everythings going well and the Iraqis are capitulating, yet al-jazeera is reporting otherwise.

Hmm, let's see: 1000 Iraqis killed - no UK/US losses reported... shite!

33 Iraqi tanks destroyed in a major firefight - no UK/US losses reported... shite! Oh hold on, a major chipped a fingernail

If everything's fine then WHY THE HELL are the Americans bringing another heavy division over? Oh let me see, to guard the 8000 POWs (what happened to them?)

All I can say is "thank God for the Internet" - the truth will out sooner rather than later.

[foxer 0]

6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 27 2003,216)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Mar. 27 2003,20:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ Mar. 27 2003,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who still think that the Shi'iites are on USA side,read this . Article also gives a hint on what happened (or did not happen) in Basra<span id='postcolor'>

That link is kinda BS.First anything coming outta iraq is BS.So they don't support US/UK ? I doubt that,i believe their scared to come out how we let like 60,000 of them die ,when we say we would support them.So i'm thinking they think we will leave them again.<span id='postcolor'>

I think it is a very good Reuters article. What some people here don't seem to understand that while people there might not like Saddam, they hate the US and the US involvement in the Mid East. I don't know where you get the delusion that they like you there. These are territories where Osama bin Laden is a hero and you are the "Great Satan".

The question in the end is who they hate more, Saddam or USA. And I think we've gotten that question answered by now.

... unless you wish to claim that a couple of thousand of Iraqi paramilitary forces are forcing 1,500,000 people in Basra to support Iraq.

And this is a fact obviously entirely overlooked by the US/UK military planners. If there is any city where they really hate Saddam it's Basra. But apparently they hate the US even more.<span id='postcolor'>

... unless you wish to claim that a couple of thousand of Iraqi paramilitary forces are forcing 1,500,000 people in Basra to support Iraq.

I don't think half of those people know what's going on.I mean we don't even know.All we know is their is a battle in the city.

Sorry,i don't believe anything that comes outta baghdad,I mean we all know what happens when someone tell the truth in baghdad.

I think these people are lost though.I mean they don't own an satellite dish,if their found with one they will get killed.I doubt they have a computer ,so no internet.Do they even know whats going on in the world ?

I agree the military planner fux up,really bad too.

Give it up Denoir. I've tried to tell several of these people that they might not be considered as the saviour of the free world in the middle east - especially not in Iraq. It just doesn't add up for a person that obviously choses to swallow Washingtons point of view. Some people just want simple answers: good or evil, wrong or right, black or white - and in between there is nothing!

We don't know if they want the america system or not .Your problem is your thinking too much,keep it simple.America(or something close to it) way is the best way.Why you think (western)europe and america,japan,south korea,etc etc is soo far ahead in their own region ? err wait. This doesn't belong here,if you wanna talk about it bring it up over there. in the other thread.Plus what you said can be said right back to you.

[Tydium 0]

US is denying claims that another apache have been downed. The say that none of its helicopters are missing and that Al-Jazeera are probably showing pictures of the apache that was downed on monday.

Reuters

BTW. There was reports earlier this week that an apache and a blackhawk went missing during those sandstroms. I haven't heard anything from those reports since. So does any of you know have these helicopters been found or are they still missing ?

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tracy_t @ Mar. 27 2003,21:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's scandalous how the so-called "news" sources like the BBC & CNN cover up coalition disasters and losses. On the BBC page it looks like everythings going well and the Iraqis are capitulating, yet al-jazeera is reporting otherwise.

Hmm, let's see: 1000 Iraqis killed - no UK/US losses reported... shite!

33 Iraqi tanks destroyed in a major firefight - no UK/US losses reported... shite! Oh hold on, a major chipped a fingernail

If everything's fine then WHY THE HELL are the Americans bringing another heavy division over? Oh let me see, to guard the 8000 POWs (what happened to them?)

All I can say is "thank God for the Internet" - the truth will out sooner rather than later.<span id='postcolor'>

Think about airpower.also artillery,plus how well train on the iraqi force ? Why are they on a suicide mission ? Us/UK is hella alot better then their stuff.I really doubt al-jazeera is fair.

If everything's fine then WHY THE HELL are the Americans bringing another heavy division over? Oh let me see, to guard the 8000 POWs (what happened to them?)

They probably thought the cities in the south would not fight.See how their fighting,they have to bring in more people to help in the southern cities and baghdad.

All I can say is "thank God for the Internet" - the truth will out sooner rather than later.

Truth .People that dislike america(some dislike gov't ,some dislike america in whole) will be the unfair one,and post it as fact,and people who likes america or in the war will post their pro-war news coverage,to support them.There is no fairness,it's just bunch of crap.

You seen like an anti war person,so you would post anything that has been bad for us/uk soldiers.

[Guest]

Two posts deleted, save the politics to the other thread please

[turms 0]

The journalist that did that report is a Reuters journalist in Bagdad. Now why would he lie a thing like that? And you brought the politics to this issue so dont complain about it.

I only linked a Reuters (wich happens to be one of the most unbiased news offices out there) article in here.