Everything you wanted to know about 5.56 nato

[Heavy Metal 0]

Hi!

I am new here (but not to OFP) So I come bringing gifts!

5,56 FAQ with photos and Ballistic Gelatin tests

Some good people put a lot of hard work into this so enjoy!

I have considerable knowledge of modern small arms and intend to share it with this board.  Its late and I will post some of my bona fides tommorow!  Check out the link!

Ok, Ok!  Here is one bona fide!

P.S. I intend to address the relative ballistics of the major calibers and provide supporting evidence for my conclusions.

[edc 0]

SHouldn't this be in offtopic?

[Heavy Metal 0]

I hope this thread will turn into a legitamite discussion of the relative stopping power of major modern military cartridges and how they are modeled in game.  Therefore I hope this thread proves relevant.

More info on terminal effects of modern military cartridges.

P.S.  This image is mis-labeled inside the link.

Should Be from left to right:

7.62x39 M-43 Type PS 123 Gr Ball, 5.45x39 Type 7N6 52 Gr Ball, 5.56x45 M-193 55GR Ball and 5.56x45 M-855 62Gr Enhanced Penetration Ball.

The pic of one of my toys is offtopic and I will refrain from posting any more of them in the General Forum.

[Guest]

This should be in offtopic since it is not directly related to OFP. Moving

[Assault (CAN) 1]

If I had a nickel for every discussion on bullets and stopping power.......................

I'd have alot of nickels.

Arguing is pointless because in the end I get issued IVI C77 Ball ammo, with a few tracers.

[LowLevelFunctionary 0]

Wow, some interesting facts there... thanks! and welcome to the OFP community

[The_Replicator 0]

only high frequency anti-proton beams can hurt ME

metal projectiles have no effect on the replicator

[Epita 0]

ahh, i think Mr Replicator that my RailDriver will hurt you. Its a self made rail gun, the ones that the USM cant make. Should fire around Hypersonic if i can ever get it to a high % effeciancy. Pics up when the casing is done. (im a university Grad in Enginnering)

Epita

[Heavy Metal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arguing is pointless because in the end I get issued IVI C77 Ball ammo, with a few tracers.  <span id='postcolor'>

The canadian version of the Swedish SS109, the same as our M-855.

I have read some reports of M-855 not fragmenting like it should.  Could be the result of manufacturing varations.  After all, fragmentation in 5.56 (military ball) rounds is by accident and not design.

More stuff, this one about how 7.62x39 ball is a poor stopper:

Note:  This includes data(not pictures) from the Stocton Calif. Shooting so don't read if you are squeamish!

Fackler study on 7.62x39 terminal effects.

[Grey Fox 0]

Question: Are .308 Winchester and 7.62mm NATO the same/compatible cartridges?

I read the difference between .223 Remington and 5.56mm NATO and I just wondered.

[Maraudeur 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Heavy Metal @ Mar. 01 2003,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arguing is pointless because in the end I get issued IVI C77 Ball ammo, with a few tracers.  <span id='postcolor'>

The canadian version of the Swedish SS109, the same as our M-855.

I have read some reports of M-855 not fragmenting like it should.  Could be the result of manufacturing varations.  After all, fragmentation in 5.56 (military ball) rounds is by accident and not design.

More stuff, this one about how 7.62x39 ball is a poor stopper:

Note:  This includes data(not pictures) from the Stocton Calif. Shooting so don't read if you are squeamish!

Fackler study on 7.62x39 terminal effects.<span id='postcolor'>

Hi heavy Metal

Sorry, the SS109 ball is not Swedish, but Belgian, as the manufacturer that conceived it is belgian, FN ; Fabrique Nationale at Herstal.

About the 7.62X39, do you know that russian armed forces consider seriously switching back to that cartridge because 5.45 offers less terminal ballistic effectivness ?

That they already bought some weapons to be tested and some others regulary used in Cechnya in 7.62x39.

Be very prudential with Dr Facklers work.

It is very complete, but some od the fundamentals are mistaken.

Firstly, tests driven with ballistic gelatin is not representative to what would happen in real life.

Because gelatin is homogenous material ( density, hardness, etc ) and not elastical as most human materials are.

Some others points cares also, but at different level, including for example personnal cultural thinkings that, saddly, sometimes conflicts with the scientific work Dr Facklers produces. For example the search for effectivness with big and slow bullets for handguns.

But, I saw the term " stopping power " somewhere by there, please Heavy Metal ban this term because Dr Fackler claims this is a myth, and this one of the points I higly agree with him

[Heavy Metal 0]

You are correct Sir!  It is Fabrique Nationale and not Sweden who deserves credit for the SS109.  I knew better but put the wrong thing down.  Musta had the Swedish Bikini Team on my mind

Its adoption was a result of the NATO trials of 1979-1980 IIRC.

I perfer 'incapatation' to stopping power and detests the phrase 'knockdown power' as nothing short of a true cannon possess that type of kinetic effect.

Fackler may not be perfect but he uses documented scientific methodology that anyone else who cares to take the trouble and expense should be able to repeat with similar results.

(unlike some of Marshal and Sanow's claims)

Ballistic Gleatin should be thought of as the equivilant of 'Rolled Homegoneous Armor' used to rate AT projectiles.

No one really uses RHA for modern armor anymore but is is a good medium to compare one projectile relative to another.

More reading (that I don't necessairly fully agree with):

7.62 VS 5.56 NATO

5.56 vs .223??

Read the 5.56 FAQ linked in the original post as it explains the differences far better than I could. Esentially, The Mil stuff is hotter and made with a stronger casing to withsand the punishment of hot chambers with long headspace.

5.56 chambered rifles tend to have longer freebore ahead of the rifling in order to accomidate longer tracer projectiles as well.

[Jinef 2]

Right here's a question for you ballistic experts.

How come whenever i fire an SA80 with 5.56 ammo no holes appear in the target? The 5.56 doesn't go straight!

[Heavy Metal 0]

......uhhhhhh........ The rounds are transporting tehmselves into a parallel dimension!

A stabilization failure would produce 'keyholed' rounds on target. While possible, Occam sez this is highly unlikely. The L85 has a fast twist rifling ans should stabilize both M-193, M-196 Tracer as well as M-855 and M-856 Tracer rounds.

Could it be perhaps that your scope is waaay miszeroed?

Try shooting at a closer and bigger target.

[Heavy Metal 0]

What's the Difference between .308 Winchester & 7.62x51mm NATO?

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Heavy Metal @ Mar. 01 2003,05:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, Ok!  Here is one bona fide!<span id='postcolor'>

Romanian SAR 2 with a Bulgarian "waffle" magazine.

What is your screen name on ARFCOM ?

[Heavy Metal 0]

Romanian SAR-3 With Bulgarian Waffle mag and now with an Eagle Tactical sling and a Kobra-2 OEG! Not to mention I replaced the furniture with the cast outs from a Bulgarian 74 kit and Painted it with Brownells Alumina-Hyde II and Brownells baking laquer!

What is my screen name at arfcom?

Me consults Moses MCP Cone Computer at SuperBestPals HQ!

[mcpmoses]......uhhhhh..........uhhhh..........uhhhh.......Your arfcom screen name is HeavyMetal![/mcpmoses]

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Heavy Metal @ Mar. 02 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Romanian SAR-3 With Bulgarian Waffle mag and now with an Eagle Tactical sling and a Kobra-2 OEG!  Not to mention I replaced the furniture with the cast outs from a Bulgarian 74 kit and Painted it with Brownells Alumina-Hyde II and Brownells baking laquer!<span id='postcolor'>

Ahhh,...5.56.

I have a Kobra site on one of my SAR 1s, I like it.

Lately Ive been working on a Bulgarian AK-74 kit from K-VAR.

(Posted some pics of it in a thread a while back).

[Heavy Metal 0]

Did your kit come with polymer stocks or with the 'reeks of turpentine' wood?

Troy Sellars at Inrange is building mine up on an Ohio Ordinance AK-74 reciever with Olive Drab Warsaw Pact length US compliance stocks from K-Var

He is also building me a 5.45 Bulgarian Krink (a Semi only SBR AKS-74U) for me next month. It will be a class three SBR when complete. This one is being built on an FEG 5.45 reciever from Global Trades.

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Heavy Metal @ Mar. 02 2003,06:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did your kit come with polymer stocks or with the 'reeks of turpentine' wood?

Troy Sellars at Inrange is building mine up on an Ohio Ordinance AK-74 reciever with Olive Drab Warsaw Pact length US compliance stocks from K-Var

He is also building me a 5.45 Bulgarian Krink (a Semi only SBR AKS-74U) for me next month.  It will be a class three SBR when complete.  This one is being built on an FEG 5.45 reciever from Global Trades.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, mine came with some very nice wood, I intend to keep this one original. (I got one of the first ones, when K-VAR started really pushing them "on sale" for members a little while back)

Im also building mine on an Ohio Ordnace 5.45 reciever, but I think I am going to send it out to Arizona Response Systems to be finnished in "metalcol" black.

Here it is, (before I started on it)

[Maraudeur 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Heavy Metal @ Mar. 02 2003,00:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I perfer 'incapatation' to stopping power and detests the phrase 'knockdown power' as nothing short of a true cannon possess that type of kinetic effect.

Fackler may not be perfect but he uses documented scientific methodology that anyone else who cares to take the trouble and expense should be able to repeat with similar results.

(unlike some of Marshal and Sanow's claims)

Ballistic Gleatin should be thought of as the equivilant of 'Rolled Homegoneous Armor' used to rate AT projectiles.

No one really uses RHA for modern armor anymore but is is a good medium to compare one projectile relative to another.<span id='postcolor'>

Hi

Correct, noany amount of energy is usable to quantifty any incapacitation of human organism working order.

This is why I still say be carefull with gelatin.

Your parallel with RHA is an idea, but not really apropriate.

While penetration is considered, you still can use any other reference material.

I explain :

If for example 10 centimeters of bore carbid, ceramics or any other material is necessary to stop a penetrator, and if 35 cm of RHA is necessary to stop the same poenetrator, where's the problem of using that equivalence ??

Even when use of different materials in composite armour produces the broke of the penetrator, the RHA equivalent is lowered to keep the scale.

But, BUT for the terminal ballistic, it is completely another matter of facts.

It is not question to determine an amount of what any you want to counter two physics, but WHAT HAPPEN when in the material.

It is like coumparing gear box mechanism and fluids mechanisms and physics.

This is where the material structure takes care.

And gelatin is really not representative of the supposed subject of studies, human body.

Gelatin is homogenous, non elastic.

Its density is near of most of semi liquidian human tissues, but that is all.

It do not react similary because the tissue strucuture got nothing at all to see, just because firstly gelatin is not a tissue at all.

And tests are driven at very low temperatures to fix gelatin.

So, coumparing two materials because it is claimed they got a similar water composition, but when whole structure got nothing to see and when the temperature is very different, it is a mistake.

And gelatins do not knows different levels of hardness, elasicity, density, as human body parts offers. So...

P.S. : BTW, RHA, no more used Ahem, except boxes of ERA and composite boxes of armour, RHA is the main material used.

For example, in tanks like Abrams, only the two front boxes each side of the gun contains others materials ( but some RHA is in also ) all the rest is RHA. And so goes on for many others MBTs.

RHA is used along others materials, but not replaced by other.

And for lightest armoured vehicules, it is by today the most ( 90% ?? ) used material.

[Heavy Metal 0]

I guess I should have been more clear and stated that no one uses RHA alone

RHA is used but you have other materials like DU , Ceramic layers down to the Kevlar Anti-Spall liners.  I assure you that the side armor and the frontal glacis is more than just RHA.

The main structural component in the hull of an Abrams is stainless steel and everything else is packed behind it.

Even as far back as the 60's the T-64 had a ceramic lining to make for a primitive composite armor.  The ceramic layer was supposed to help protect against HEAT rounds.

Inrange uses a 'metacol' type finish from Kal-Guard. He completly strips and bead blasts the metal before application.

[Heavy Metal 0]

Make sure the ejector tab on your reciever is discolored like the hammer/trigger holes are.

Ohio Ordinance let some get out without hardened ejector tabs.

Ohio Ordinance does a second heat treat on the holes and the tab using an electric induction technique. The whole thing is heat treated but the holes and tab are harder still.

[Maraudeur 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Heavy Metal @ Mar. 02 2003,19:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess I should have been more clear and stated that no one uses RHA alone

RHA is used but you have other materials like DU , Ceramic layers down to the Kevlar Anti-Spall liners.  I assure you that the side armor and the frontal glacis is more than just RHA.

The main structural component in the hull of an Abrams is stainless steel and everything else is packed behind it.

Inrange uses a 'metacol' type finish from Kal-Guard.  He completly strips and bead blasts the metal before application.

Even as far back as the 60's the T-64 had a ceramic lining to make for a primitive composite armor.  The ceramic layer was supposed to help protect against HEAT rounds<span id='postcolor'>

You should be more clear please

No one use RHA alone, but what for ? What vehicule ?

Just frontal protection of most MBTs ? Yes.

I assure you that side armor of some MBTs, Abrams and LeoIIA5 for example just feature thin armour plate

Just kidding Heavy Metal

Best regards.

[Heavy Metal 0]

And to think I was going to build my own Merkava using PVC pipe for the main gun, cardboard for the armor and a pringles can for the AP Mortar!