Do u believe people are basically good?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 21 2003,15:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I see that many suffer from inner ailments, sublime and slick as soap; there are repressed angers, nebulous feelings of bondage, but folks have no clue as to how to get rid of them.

MY answer is easy: accept God as a reality, and acknowledge that you're not perfect - I mean, just say it! accept that you need a guideline for your life. then accept that God's Word - by that I mean the bible - is true, and use it as your guide.

the effect, in my experience, is... liberating.<span id='postcolor'>

Really, but this goes along well with your analysis above:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the person knows what is good, but doesn't have the desire or the energy to do it; he or she actually finds him- or herself frequently doing wrong things, totally unable to stop himself - but doesn't want to own up to his or her helplessness in the matter, of course. so that person starts to make excuses and finds scapegoats for his shortcomings, rather than taking responsibility, which would be a step towards personal liberty.

all those conflicting thoughts coming from the conscience of such a person - affirmations of good, rejections of those affirmations, consciousness of guilt, desire for innocence, denials of guilt, excuses , etc - weave a tangled web<span id='postcolor'>

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 21 2003,21:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll have to say that I believe a person is born innocent, which qualifies as good in the context of my worldview.

but every person arrives at the age of accountability sooner or later, usually around age 9 to 12, and invariably does something evil, knowing full well, that the act is bad.

in that moment something dies in that person. it is sort of like a personal fall.

subsequently an inner development downward - a moral deterioration - sets in, unbeknownst to the person - he might actually think he's merely coming of age and losing his naiveté. truth is: the person is becoming bad.

the world suddenly looks colder than it used to.

the person knows what is good, but doesn't have the desire or the energy to do it; he or she actually finds him- or herself frequently doing wrong things, totally unable to stop himself - but doesn't want to own up to his or her helplessness in the matter, of course. so that person starts to make excuses and finds scapegoats for his shortcomings, rather than taking responsibility, which would be a step towards personal liberty.

all those conflicting thoughts coming from the conscience of such a person - affirmations of good, rejections of those affirmations, consciousness of guilt, desire for innocence, denials of guilt, excuses , etc - weave a tangled web, in which somebody can get so caught up, that in his striving for moral equilibrium - innocence, actually - a person in the end works himself into such absurd notions as "good is bad" and vice versa, or that good is altogether relative.

(indeed helped by the "social conditioning" many of us constantly refer to.)

how do you get back out of that - doubtlessly subliminal - self-weaved choke-hold your thoughts have on your perception of the real truth?

I see that many suffer from inner ailments, sublime and slick as soap; there are repressed angers, nebulous feelings of bondage, but folks have no clue as to how to get rid of them.

MY answer is easy: accept God as a reality, and acknowledge that you're not perfect - I mean, just say it! accept that you need a guideline for your life. then accept that God's Word - by that I mean the bible - is true, and use it as your guide.

the effect, in my experience, is... liberating.

by the way: the first words the devil said in the bible are: "has God really said...?" (Genesis 3, 1.)

he questioned God's Word.

what are you doing?<span id='postcolor'>

So you claim that knowing that your act is bad but doing it anyway is the sign of you becoming bad? And that children are not naive, but good?

That's a pretty naive claim.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 21 2003,21:o9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how do you get back out of that - doubtlessly subliminal - self-weaved choke-hold your thoughts have on your perception of the real truth?<span id='postcolor'>I know...

Trade it all in for an institutionalised choke-hold on your perception of the real truth.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 22 2003,10:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 21 2003,21:o9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how do you get back out of that - doubtlessly subliminal - self-weaved choke-hold your thoughts have on your perception of the real truth?<span id='postcolor'>I know...

Trade it all in for an institutionalised choke-hold on your perception of the real truth. <span id='postcolor'>

MY perception of the truth is original and far from handed down/institutionalized. otherwise I'd hardly be hanging around here talking about it. I'd be settling into the comfort zone large institutions usually provide.

btw, are you still with fatah?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

lol ZING

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 21 2003,21:o9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...every person arrives at the age of accountability sooner or later, usually around age 9 to 12, and invariably does something evil, knowing full well, that the act is bad.

...truth is: the person is becoming bad.

...the person knows what is good, but doesn't have the desire or the energy to do it<span id='postcolor'>

Sam, what was the evil, bad thing that you did but were eventually able to acknowledge on your path to personal liberation? ...kill an Arab?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 22 2003,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MY perception of the truth is original and far from handed down/institutionalized.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Aug. 28 2002,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">guess I'm a "christian fundamentalist"...

...and I love those steeples on every corner of america too. no dead state church, but thriving small congregations. mega churches in the big cities with 10.000 and more worshipers on sunday. stadiums with up to 60.000 men in attendance, all extolling God. it's awesome. you don't know what you're missing.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh-huh. All 60,000 of you singing in unison about how original YOUR perceptions of truth are.

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

(Can you spot Sam?  He's the original one.)

[Balschoiw 0]

I dont like smily wars a lot but this one was great Bernadotte.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Someone call for a smiley war?

[ralphwiggum 6]

did someone call for some locked thread or PR?

[Renagade 0]

placebo used to lock threads becuase one perrson done something that broke the rules,don`t see why he had to bug otherr ppl by locking when he could of just edited out the offending thread

os, did anyone discuss the possibility of a persons genes playing any part in the perception of good and bad ?

edit: ralphwiggum: editted out irrelevant section

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 23 2003,01:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 22 2003,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">MY perception of the truth is original and far from handed down/institutionalized.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Aug. 28 2002,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...something good about God....<span id='postcolor'>

Uh-huh.  All 60,000 of you singing in unison about how original YOUR perceptions of truth are.

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

(Can you spot Sam?  He's the original one.)<span id='postcolor'>

a little touchy, are we, eh?

so you still are with fatah after all.

balsh clearly doesn't know why he's laughing, but watch out for bernie, he's got a looong memory, not forgetting - and finding! - what I wrote half a year ago.

compliment.

(just make sure you don't forget the stuff I wrote.)

well, about your scorn of individual originality...

reality check --- logic kicking in:

if more 1 person arrives at the truth, what is so strange about it?

if the truth is really that, more than one person will arrive at it sooner or later. at least creative thinkers. just like two fairminded students of algebra and arithmetic will inevitably arrive at the conclusion that 1+1=2.

or do you think that's relative too?

:o :o :o :o :o

genes...

renegade: judging from the pic in your avatar you're a genetic mutant, perhaps foreshadowing the next step of evolution: homo caput mortuum.

I believe in degeneration, btw, not evolution. the whole thing is a hoax. remember the piltdown man?

from nothing comes nothing, or am I seeing this wrong?

maybe some of the moral fundamentalists among us could enlighten me about the evolution of morality and conscience out of premordial slime?

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">balsh clearly doesn't know why he's laughing<span id='postcolor'>

I do.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,17:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">a little touchy, are we, eh?

so you still are with fatah after all.<span id='postcolor'>

And just who started with the fatah thing?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if more 1 person arrives at the truth, what is so strange about it?

if the truth is really that, more than one person will arrive at it sooner or later. at least creative thinkers. just like two fairminded students of algebra and arithmetic will inevitably arrive at the conclusion that 1+1=2.

or do you think that's relative too?

<span id='postcolor'> I think you are right about that... but the example is simple, what you are discussing (God as truth) is much more complicated. To arrive at a definite conclusion, nearly impossible. You will have to judge what people wrote through the millennia. That is, unless you personally somehow know this God.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">genes...

renegade: judging from the pic in your avatar you're a genetic mutant, perhaps foreshadowing the next step of evolution: homo caput mortuum.

I believe in degeneration, btw, not evolution. the whole thing is a hoax. remember the piltdown man?

<span id='postcolor'> Ask yourself about the scientific facts about this. Are you talking about the degeneration of the human genes only, or are you talking in general?

Evolution is not hard to understand and prove logically. In nature many things are left more less "random", so over time, nature randomly attempts various combinations, which ever ones work at the moment will keep living, others will die off. Slowly but surely, what is left alive has evolved through randomness. And the fact that so many organisms can pick their mate "conciously", only speeds up evolution. What you can also derive from the idea of life being simply random, is that all living organisms have equal value (not human value). Since the organism is alive, it has gone through it's evolution cycle from some starting point(s) on earth.

Obviously, value IS relative to the species.

(i see something coming here)

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just like two fairminded students of algebra and arithmetic will inevitably arrive at the conclusion that 1+1=2.

or do you think that's relative too?<span id='postcolor'>

Well...actually....sort of! I remember one Algebra and Geometry teacher who once showed our class "mathematical proof" that 1+1=1, and dared us to disprove it. For a full 75 minute period we couldn't, so he finally showed us a stuble flaw in the formula. Too bad that at an after-graduation camping trip I fed my remaining high-school notes to the bonfire, I know I had that one written down somewhere .

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 23 2003,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember one Algebra and Geometry teacher who once showed our class "mathematical proof" that 1+1=1, and dared us to disprove it.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, some people spend waaay too much time trying to come up with useles things that will make everyone else admire them. Magicians?

... man, i'm so tired ....

EDIT: Tovarish, was it just me or did our Prof. kind of hurry through the theory today? Cuz I had a hard time keeping up. Maybe it's just being tired.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 24 2003,05:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 23 2003,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember one Algebra and Geometry teacher who once showed our class "mathematical proof" that 1+1=1, and dared us to disprove it.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, some people spend waaay too much time trying to come up with useles things that will make everyone else admire them. Magicians? <span id='postcolor'>

Actually, I think his point was to demonstrate how much difference one tiny "mistake" could make, and not teach us not to simply take a "proof" for granted, either way it had us all stumped, pretty impressive stuff.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.. man, i'm so tired ....

EDIT: Tovarish, was it just me or did our Prof. kind of hurry through the theory today? Cuz I had a hard time keeping up. Maybe it's just being tired.

<span id='postcolor'>

Lol that's pretty funny, today was one of the few days I didn't have too much trouble following him, but then again what he did today was mostly a review of last semester's. I am noticing he makes it seem more complex than it has to be

Yeah, I'm petty exhausted myself, a few more math problems and it's sweet dreams for me.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">a little touchy, are we, eh?<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not the one who had to replace his own words with "...something good about God..."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">enlighten me about the evolution of morality and conscience out of premordial slime?<span id='postcolor'>

Don't worry Sam.  You might get there someday.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 24 2003,02:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">balsh clearly doesn't know why he's laughing<span id='postcolor'>I do.<span id='postcolor'>

We all do.  Even Sam knows.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 24 2003,04:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And just who started with the fatah thing?<span id='postcolor'>It was me.  Most people think it was Arafat, 39 years ago, but it was really me.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I believe in degeneration, btw, not evolution. the whole thing is a hoax. remember the piltdown man?<span id='postcolor'>

Hhmh. Having witnessed evolution first hand, it is a little hard for me to call it a hoax.

Overally, the universe is degenerating all the time, since overally entropy is increasing. However, local evolution does happen (like on Earth), but at the cost of more entropy increase somewhere else (namely the sun in our case).

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 24 2003,04:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just like two fairminded students of algebra and arithmetic will inevitably arrive at the conclusion that 1+1=2.

or do you think that's relative too?<span id='postcolor'>

Well...actually....sort of! I remember one Algebra and Geometry teacher who once showed our class "mathematical proof" that 1+1=1, and dared us to disprove it. For a full 75 minute period we couldn't, so he finally showed us a stuble flaw in the formula. Too bad that at an after-graduation camping trip I fed my remaining high-school notes to the bonfire, I know I had that one written down somewhere .<span id='postcolor'>

let me pick up what tovarish said: the truthlike appearance of a falsehood!

one wrong hypothesis ( H=0, not H=1 ), one wrong switch in the railroad system, can throw a whole theory way off. and evolution theory is a large conglomerate of hypotheses.

one hypothesis is many times just a sub-hypothesis of another one.

calculating the veracity-probability (VP) of such a complex theory as evolution... I'd say you'd arrive at something like VP < 10 raised to the power of -1000.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 24 2003,10:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I believe in degeneration, btw, not evolution. the whole thing is a hoax. remember the piltdown man?<span id='postcolor'>

Hhmh. Having witnessed evolution first hand, it is a little hard for me to call it a hoax.

Overally, the universe is degenerating all the time, since overally entropy is increasing. However, local evolution does happen (like on Earth), but at the cost of more entropy increase somewhere else (namely the sun in our case).<span id='postcolor'>

oligo:

wow! you saw it?

honestly though, I believe you witnessed mutation, not evolution. (why don't you ask your professor what he thinks? I'd be interested to know.)

let me argue along the line of information, since DNA obviously contains information. (actually in the most economical, powerpacked way possible, utilizing mere molecules!

would you say that information ( in the scientific sense of the word ) necessitates or presupposes.

- a sender? which implies:

- a plan and thus a person planning?

- semantic content (= a message). semantic content is foreign to matter.

- information serves a purpose. the quality of a purpose-serving invention demonstrates the genius of the inventor.

- matter by itself doesn't create concepts. (a bridge doesn't span itself across a river just because a few folks want to get to the other side.)

- the building blocks of matter don't have any psychic properties. they don't plan and don't think. they don't create goals and then pursue them. only intelligent beings, capable of using information, can do that.

let me simplify:

before you is a pile of boards and nails.

what is necessary to build a hut out of those?

- the will to do it,

- the strength,

- the time,

- and an idea of what kind of hut you want to build.

now look at a car consisting of 10.000 pieces?

what do you need to create that?

more of the above:

- more tenacious will

- more power

- more time

- a more specific plan

a space shuttle?

more of the above.

what do you need to create a supercomputer consisting of roughly 15 billion pieces, 300.000 miles of cable, gazillions of random access and long term storage memory, water cooled, weighing 3 pounds / 1.5 kg?

(I'm talking about the human brain.)

what do you need to arrive at a product like that?

nothing - and long time periods?

no. not according to the established laws of science.

you need more of the above: greater willpower, more energy, more time..., you get the drift.

since matter by itself is not self-organizing, who told it to organize the way it does?

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 24 2003,04:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if more 1 person arrives at the truth, what is so strange about it?

if the truth is really that, more than one person will arrive at it sooner or later. at least creative thinkers. just like two fairminded students of algebra and arithmetic will inevitably arrive at the conclusion that 1+1=2.

or do you think that's relative too?

<span id='postcolor'> I think you are right about that... but the example is simple, what you are discussing (God as truth) is much more complicated.  To arrive at a definite conclusion, nearly impossible.  You will have to judge what people wrote through the millennia.  That is, unless you personally somehow know this God.  <span id='postcolor'>

bn880:

maybe I did meet God. what would be so special about it? millions have.

maybe this encounter did totally change my life.

maybe it did turn me from a life as a petty pusher on the streets into a leader at what I'm doing now. God still saves, you know.

as to the value immanent in life:

what do you think about hierarchies of value?

or hierarchies in general?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Jan. 26 2003,22:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no. not according to the established laws of science.

you need more of the above: greater willpower, more energy, more time..., you get the drift.

since matter by itself is not self-organizing, who told it to organize the way it does? <span id='postcolor'>

I have worked a lot in a field of AI called evolutionary/genetic algorithms. It is a mathematical optimization method that works on the principles taken from biological evolution:

[*] mutation

[*] crossover (mixing of genes)

[*] fitness selection

I can provide if you wish the mathematical proof of an global convergence for any given fitness function. In biological terms that fitness function is the survival of the individual. That is your organization principle.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

don't see alot of conversations about mathematical proofs for organization principles at the AA Forum

[Bernadotte 0]

How many generations came before the average person?  Has anyone tried to work out an approximation?  If during the past 1000 years, if one's typical ancestor had offspring at ~20 years of age then that would account for approximately 50 generations.

But what if we look back 1 billion years?  There would be far more than 50 million generations because each generation was of much shorter duration for the earlier life from which we evolved.  So how many?  One hundred million?  One billion?

And soon after the beginning, within each one of those one billion iterations there existed an enormous and every growing population of creatures all susceptible to mutation.  Most mutation was disadvantageous and died with the mutant, but the advantageous mutations that aided survival remained inked within the DNA of the survivors.

Look at it this way.  We all know it takes a lot of monkeys tapping keyboards to eventually, accidentally create a work of Shakespeare.  However, if every correct key stroke is inked and the incorrect strokes disappear then a billion monkeys will get the job done in no time.