3 americans killed in yemen

[DarkLight 0]

The man responsible for this is not truly islamitic in my opinion, don't blame religions...

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 01 2003,17:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The man responsible for this is not truly islamitic in my opinion, don't blame religions...<span id='postcolor'>

Well, sorta yes and no.

[pzvg 0]

Umm yes, DO blame religions,

first off, they are a source of conflict, <ever hear of the Crusades?>

secondly, rather hard to produce religious fanatics without a religion.

Still, when it's all said and done, it's the weakness of the individual at the heart of it, <the weaker they are, the quicker they lay the blame for their acts at some metaphysical dieties feet>

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pzvg @ Dec. 31 2002,20:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

You don't understand... their religion doesn't tell these people to start a war, if you blame a religion, you blame the innocent and the guilty people.

Some people think that killing for their religion is right, while others (the real islamitic ppl) believe that this is wrong.

Now when we judge the whole religion, both sides will be influenced by our judgement, so basically, the good people will also be called murderers and freaks because they also live by the Islam. This, of course, is a bad thing.

I see this a lot lately, especially when i talk to american kids who are still rather young (about 12 years old that is).

Some of them seem rather convinced that bombing the whole islam is the best thing to do. No doubt about it 9/11 has a lot to do with what they think but still... i find it hard to accept that some kids actually believe what they are saying.

Oh well, this isn't really on topic so i'll get back on.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><ever hear of the Crusades?>

<span id='postcolor'>

Hell yeah i know about the Crusades, it was one of the most boring things i've ever studied in my life... with exception of maths...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">secondly, rather hard to produce religious fanatics without a religion.<span id='postcolor'>

Every good thing has a bad side, religions bring good stuff too, the sad part is that same people take advantage of religions to create these fanatics.

For example, bin laden, this guy brainwashes a lot of people, of course this doesn't have a lot of result on all the grown ups, but especially younger kids look at him as a hero.

Kids are easy to brainwash, check out what i said a couple lines up, about the "bombing the whole islam". Basically, those kids are brainwashed too, brainwashing happens the whole time, mostly it's no big deal, but stuff like this can get nasty.

Religions aren't a bad thing, the people who take advantage of them are bad...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Still, when it's all said and done, it's the weakness of the individual at the heart of it, <the weaker they are, the quicker they lay the blame for their acts at some metaphysical dieties feet><span id='postcolor'>

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pzvg @ Jan. 02 2003,00:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Umm yes, DO blame religions,

first off, they are a source of conflict, <ever hear of the Crusades?>

secondly, rather hard to produce religious fanatics without a religion.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, no. Most religions don't tell their people to go to war with people who don't believe what they do. God (my God at least) wants us to have a free will about our beliefs, not to be forced into it.

[pzvg 0]

FSpilot,

Not to offend man, but making basic assumptions, we arrive at;

You said "god" not "allah" so we determine that you worship either christian or yiddish,

which leads to;

The most bloodthirsty religion <in name> of all, responsible <indirectly> for the 1st through 4th Crusades, the edict of Nantes, and the Spanish Inquistion <keep it light fellows, I'm illustrating a point, not bagging on a deity, 'sides, not like a God needs YOUR help in a fight>

Noone's God says "Go Ye out and useth automatic weapons on the unbelieving, that they may know the greatness of God"

It's all in the interpetation, add a little hate and false identification <that whole great Satan thing> maybe a touch of repressive paranoia, allow to simmer for a few years and bing! one slightly less than sane killer stalking the innocent, thereby proving that not only was Nieztche right, he had a hell of a sense of humor.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

pzvg, your reasoning is pretty weak. People are to blame for world conflict, not religion.

Evil people use religion as an excuse to do bad things, as well as a tool to convince others to do it. When you place the blame on religions for the past few thousand years of conflict you are putting it in the wrong place. It's man's nature to hate or fear things that are different, be it colour, size, or religion.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You said "god" not "allah" so we determine that you worship either christian or yiddish<span id='postcolor'>

Whatever.

IMHO, there is only one god, people just worship him in different ways. Allah is just another word for God.

Tyler

[pzvg 0]

Attacking my "reasoning" on the basis of your "Belief"

does little to help your position, and no harm to mine

Note, before anyone else engages in verbal fisticuffs with me over this, try looking up "cynical" and "satire"

If you don't get it, it's probably because you don't want to, which is your problem, not mine.

I personally don't require a higher power to budget out my ammo,

And my religion isn't Islamic, or any of your business for that matter

[ralphwiggum 6]

i'm just hoping you two don't start yelling at each other.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pzvg @ Jan. 02 2003,06:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The most bloodthirsty religion <in name> of all, responsible <indirectly> for the 1st through 4th Crusades, the edict of Nantes, and the Spanish Inquistion <keep it light fellows, I'm illustrating a point, not bagging on a deity, 'sides, not like a God needs YOUR help in a fight> <span id='postcolor'>

Show me where in the Christian Bible it tells the followers of God to go and kill everyone who isn't a Christian. Can't do it? That's because Christianity is a religion of peace, forgiveness, and love. HUMANS got it in their heads to people of other religions, I don't believe God (yes, the Christian God) told them to.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you don't get it, it's probably because you don't want to, which is your problem, not mine.<span id='postcolor'>

I could say the same to you.

Blaming religion for man's shortcomings is weak reasoning. If it isn't religion, it's race, or something else. Man has been fighting eachother for thousands of years for one stupid reason or another. Should we blame those stupid reasons? Or should we blame man for being stupid enough to kill for those stupid reasons?

I vote for the second one.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Attacking my "reasoning" on the basis of your "Belief"

<span id='postcolor'>

Funny, I'm not even religious.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Umm yes, DO blame religions,

first off, they are a source of conflict, <ever hear of the Crusades?> secondly, rather hard to produce religious fanatics without a religion.

Still, when it's all said and done, it's the weakness of the individual at the heart of it, <the weaker they are, the quicker they lay the blame for their acts at some metaphysical dieties feet> <span id='postcolor'>

Is it just me or did you contradict yourself?

Basically translated: Blame religion for our problems, but it is really man's fault for doing the wrong thing because he thinks that God thinks it's OK.

I really don't get what your'e saying, please, be clearer.

Tyler

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pzvg @ Jan. 02 2003,02:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You said "god" not "allah" so we determine that you worship either christian<span id='postcolor'>

God is a generic term in English and does not exclude Islam. The word "Allah" is derived from one of several Hebrew names for G-d in the bible: "Elokim", "El" or "Elokah".

If you ask an observant Muslim if he believes in G-d, he would answer of course! There's no contradiction.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">or yiddish<span id='postcolor'>

Yiddish is a language - not a religion.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 02 2003,00:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don't understand... their religion doesn't tell these people to start a war<span id='postcolor'>

Well, there's just a pinch of incitement in the Koran that gives them the incentive.

Moderators, should we veer away from this?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 02 2003,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Show me where in the Christian Bible it tells the followers of God to go and kill everyone who isn't a Christian.  Can't do it?  That's because Christianity is a religion of peace, forgiveness, and love.  HUMANS got it in their heads to people of other religions, I don't believe God (yes, the Christian God) told them to.<span id='postcolor'>

Also the bible can be mined for excuses to do whatever. With the word "kill", you will find 480 hits from the bible, for example:

Exodus 32:

26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD , come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Numbers 25:

3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them.

4 The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD , so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."

5 So Moses said to Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor."

Numbers 25:

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Numbers 31:

16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

All holy texts should be taken at least with a grain (preferably with a whole pile) of salt.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 02 2003,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also the bible can be mined for excuses to do whatever. With the word "kill", you will find 480 hits from the bible, for example:

Exodus 32:

26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD , come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Numbers 25:

3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them.

4 The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD , so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."

5 So Moses said to Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor."

Numbers 25:

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Numbers 31:

16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

All holy texts should be taken at least with a grain (preferably with a whole pile) of salt.<span id='postcolor'>

Your particular examples are ridiculous! If your local newspaper says an armed bank robber was shot and killed, is this an excuse for anybody from any religion to go out and kill because of the use of the word "kill"?

Please show us a single historical case for the perpetuation of killing based on any of the verses you quoted.

I'm not saying you're completely off track but your particular point and examples do not add up.

[//relic// 0]

What's the fight about? Religion is an anachronism and isn't a justification for violence under any pretexts

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (//relic// @ Jan. 02 2003,10:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What's the fight about?  Religion is an anachronism<span id='postcolor'>

I can just as easily say that about aetheism.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and isn't a justification for violence under any pretexts<span id='postcolor'>

I disagree.

[ralphwiggum 6]

a reminder service from your kind moderators:

please respect each other ans be civil.

[//relic// 0]

Athiesm is the absence of spiritual beliefs - how is that an anachronism?  Are you saying that the modern thing to do is believe in the fairies at the bottom of the garden?

No, religion isn't a justification.  There is not a whit of evidence to suggest any gods exist, just the misguided mindset of humanity.  If I created my own god tomorrow and swore to serve it, then committed a crime in it's name, would it be a valid defence?  I think not - and yet my god would be equally as real as yours (?).

As quoted countless times before, as Rich Jeni said on religious war </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend. <span id='postcolor'>

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (//relic// @ Jan. 02 2003,10:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Athiesm is the absence of spiritual beliefs - how is that an anachronism?<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">a-nach-ro-nism (uh nak'ruh niz uhm) n.

1. an error in chronology in which a person,

object, event, etc., is assigned a date

or period other than the correct one.

2. a thing or person that belongs to

another, esp. an earlier, time.

[1640-50; < L anachronismus < Gk anachronismós a

wrong time reference = anachron (ízein) to make a

wrong time reference (see ANA -, CHRONO -, -

IZE) + -ismos - ISM]

Derived words

--a-nach ro-nis'tic, a-nach ro-nis'ti-cal,

a-nach'ro-nous, adj.

--a-nach ro-nis'ti-cal-ly, a-nach'ro-nous-ly,

an-a-chron-i-cal-ly(an uh kron'ik lee), adv.<span id='postcolor'>

Aetheism has been around almost as long as religion has.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying that the modern thing to do is believe in the fairies at the bottom of the garden?<span id='postcolor'>

Checking.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, religion isn't a justification. There is not a whit of evidence to suggest any gods exist, just the misguided mindset of humanity. If I created my own god tomorrow and swore to serve it, then committed a crime in it's name, would it be a valid defence? I think not - and yet my god would be equally as real as yours (?).<span id='postcolor'>

This is not the place to have a 20,000 post discussion about whether G-d exists or not.

My point is that if G-d does exist and you know for sure that G-d commanded something that involved a violent act, you would likely find yourself to be most obedient.

Again, I'm just pointing out something that requires you to allow others not of your oinion to assume or claim to know.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 02 2003,09:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your particular examples are ridiculous! If your local newspaper says an armed bank robber was shot and killed, is this an excuse for anybody from any religion to go out and kill because of the use of the word "kill"?

Please show us a single historical case for the perpetuation of killing based on any of the verses you quoted.

I'm not saying you're completely off track but your particular point and examples do not add up.<span id='postcolor'>

The particular verses I quoted (assuming they are true of course) were each a description of an event where god ordered killing, which command was then obeyed. So therefore for each verse there exists at least one event of killing.

My main point was that in the bible god orders a lot of killing. Thus god endorses killing for a "good" cause, like for his greater glory. Not very benign of him, is it?

Anyway, luckily the christian believers have nowadays mostly abandoned this darker face of god and the darkest passages of the bible, except of course for certain fundamentalist nuts. The problem with militant muslisms is that they are reading the wrong parts of the koran.

However, I personally think that religion is just a walking stick for people, who cannot face the music without.

[//relic// 0]

It's been around as long as religion, but religion is an outdated concept and hence the absence of religion can't be an anachronism

Anyhow - that's the clinch point, since god can be assumed to not exist, they can't justify it. Yeah, if one did exist and he said "go kill some civilians in cold blood, or i'll send your ass to hell" i'd probably do it but since one doesn't...

[DarkLight 0]

Why don't all of you just stop loving your gods and start loving and praising me instead?!

It'll be lots of fun!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 02 2003,12:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why don't all of you just stop loving your gods and start loving and praising me instead?!<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, worshipping you has the benefit of not bothering to read through long posts anymore.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (//relic// @ Jan. 02 2003,11:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyhow - that's the clinch point, since god can be assumed to not exist, they can't justify it.  Yeah, if one did exist and he said "go kill some civilians in cold blood, or i'll send your ass to hell" i'd probably do it but since one doesn't...<span id='postcolor'>

Fine. We agree to disagree.