M46 fieldgun released

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Flash Burn @ Dec. 31 2002,02:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People always seem to focus in on the modern high tech push button of death weapon systems.  Which are over rated thanks to the gulf war.  Most of the world are using weapons systems from as far as 50 years back.  Would a 100mm at gun firing heat rounds at an m1 be effective on its frontal arch?  Of course not.  But an m60?  Oh hell yes.  Or a T72m1, or a t62, or leo 1, amx30.  You know, what most of the world uses.<span id='postcolor'>

Possibly, but we're talking OFP here.  In OFP the West is using both M1's and M60 tanks.   Also modern M60 tanks use thermal imagers and reactive armor making most of these AT field guns ineffective against the frontal arc (or even the turret sides) unless they are using purpose designed dual-warhead shells...none of which I think has been made for AT field guns as far as I know.   However the effectiveness of the M46 against armored vehicles is not in question when it comes to armored vehicles of the same era as the M46 gun. However scripts can be written and triggers can be made in the map editor to give the guns a fighting chance against the M60's, T-72s, and T-62 tanks in OFP.  

The bottom line is that these field guns should be detectable by the AI in OFP.  While it may be realistic in some respects for aircraft not to detect them, the fact of the matter is that the settings affect not only aircraft but also infantry and armored units as well which makes it seriously unrealistic.    

All in all I think it would create a lot less problems in a mission if they were created so that aircraft can detect them and so that tanks reacted to them just as they would to any regular tank in OFP.   That keeps the game play balanced I think.

Also in the real world, most of the world does not use AT field guns very widely in this day and age.  

Generally RPG-7's are probably the most popular AT weapons in the world aside from using other tanks.  AT-3 Sagger's still seem to be popular as well around the world.  

Also heavier guided AT missles such as the Milan, AT-4/5, TOW, BILL, ect... make much more sense in combat as they are more portable, a smaller target, and have greater range then any AT field gun.  In addition most of these now are equipped with tandem warhead missiles.  The only benefit of a AT field gun is that they can be used as artillery with a secondary AT capability in emergencies.   Whatever the case, they should still have a heat signature from their barrel (after use) and from their gun crew.  In addition advanced ground attack radar systems on aircraft might be able to pick them up.  If a ground attack aircraft pilot spots them by eye, he should also be able to designate the target and attack it with no problem.    In addition, not allowing aircraft to attack the AT guns causes the LAW and AT infantry men not to attack it as well and makes all armored vehicles extremely vulnerable to them as they don't attack them very well.   I think it would be better if they were just treated as regular tanks that just happen not to move.   While I haven't experimented much with it, I think also the probability of the guns being detected can be adjusted by the mission maker as well in the map editor.   So all in all I think that it should be able to be detected by aircraft. Allow the mission maker the freedom to decide for themselves how vulnerable the AT gun should be to it's opponents.

Anyways that's just my opinion.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[pzvg 0]

You have awareness and line of sight oppurtunities in OFP that do NOT exist in the real world, trust me, I spent many years looking thru an M1 GPS, and I never saw things as easy as I do in OFP.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pzvg @ Dec. 31 2002,12:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You have awareness and line of sight oppurtunities in OFP that do NOT exist in the real world, trust me, I spent many years looking thru an M1 GPS, and I never saw things as easy as I do in OFP.<span id='postcolor'>

No doubt, but the m1 is not the only weapon system in the game. You also don't have a big radar on the M1 either for spotting targets in real life. I was in the military also and know that a well camoflaged arty position is difficult to spot. However they make huge muzzle flashes with lots of smoke, so once they start shooting they are easy to spot if the weather/visibility isn't bad and you have good line of site. Also the real M46 would not destroy M1's (they use HE rounds that only penetrate something like around 250mm of armor according to the FAS site with no mention of HEAT rounds). In OFP the M46 is devestating. If you really wanted to make it realistic you would have to lower the dammage level the rounds cause.

My point is that OFP is a game with limitations to the game engine that can cause an over-emphasis on realism to adversely effect the quality of game play.

I simply hope that DKM just tries to make the M46 a more balanced weapon system by at least reducing the dammage levels. However I hope that DKM will make it detectable by aircraft. While this will make it easier for the M1 and M60 tanks to attack them, like I said earlier, a good mission maker can create scripts and triggers that cause the tanks not to engage the M46 until after they have been engaged.

But in the end it is DKM's addon, so it is General Carnage's choice to do whatever he wants with the M46.

Hopefully he will choose to make it a more balanced weapon in the game and give the freedom for mission makers to make it as invincible or as vulnerable as they choose to make it using scripts and triggers.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Gen.Carnage 0]

all this may be true miles, but we were looking at quite another aspect of its use; defense against tanks.

remember that this IS a stationary weapon, if you are trying to defeat the east base, you should expect some heavy opposition, the not targeting by airplanes is a problem, as i allready said before, it came down to this, make it irtargetable and useless as defense weapon, or disable irtargeting and make it effective.

we raised its 'visibility' after firing to a very high level, for a long period, this is why AI still engages on moderate distances.

with irtarget on, the abrams tanks blow them away at 1100 meters, even before the m46's start firing.

IRL this is an artillery/AT weapon, and its pretty old (1954) it is not of this age, but still loads of countries around the world use them.

We decided to make it a full AT weapon, artillery is still a major problem to deal with in ofp.

Since you cannot conquer anything with it, i see no problem in it beeing effective against tanks, it is YOU who is attacking, so YOU can expect a beating.

Also, because it covers a limited area, you can out flank it allways, this is for the mapmaker to decide.

Also the M46's first shot is very often a miss, also a factor that helps in defeating it.

Sure if a mission maker put 20 of them in a row in a canoyon where you HAVE to go thru, you got a problem, but then blame the missionmaker, not the weapon.

Don't forget, his game revolves arounf the player, not the AI.

Human player can easily outsmart this gun, there are plenty of ways to destroy it.

this gun makes 'recon' vehicles more important for gameplay, send in a 'fast mover' to lure the guns into revealing their positions before going in the zone blindly.

And tell me, what use would this gun be if it wasnt this effective against MBT's... chances are we wouldnt even be discussing it since everyone would just forget about it.

this is my opinion, i know some of you will disagree.

Anyway, there will be a new version soon, on which we hope airplanes will be able to lock, but i doubt if we will lower its firepower.

[KKB 0]

Nice addon.

But please, for the left and right rotation let the whole gun rotate, not only the barrel. Sorry, but it looks ridiculous as it is now

[ExtracTioN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KKB @ Jan. 05 2003,07:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nice addon.

But please, for the left and right rotation let the whole gun rotate, not only the barrel. Sorry, but it looks ridiculous as it is now<span id='postcolor'>

I think if the whole gun moves than it would look ridiculous

It is bug free for me and how the gun now is rocks