The Iraq Thread

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Longinius-

Quote[/b] ]"Just out of curiosity. If it had been the reversed situation and the dead guys had been Americans...Would you even have bothered...asking "

Not likely unless there was some evidence suggesting Iraqis (or foreign militias) were not responsible. But if the situation was totally reversed and it happened in America in an american militia camp then i would be suspicious.

Plenty of divisions have now surfaced between the Iraqi people. In the present situation do you think it totally impossible that an Iraqi miltia group might seize some of its (Iraqi) enemies captive and keep them handcuffed in their base? I dont and further i dont think it impossible that they might be executed in the event of a coalition attack. Having said that, if they were executed by the Saddam loyalists then the coalition would quite probably have made it a media event to illustrate how 'evil' the foe were.

If handcuffed prisoners were executed by the coalition in an arbitrary manner though why the hell would they leave the handcuffs on the corpses? (if "people who had been handcuffed" is taken to mean that the handcuffs were still present)

Perhaps the executioners simply felt that they were committing no crime and felt free from prosecution.

Whatever the case im not totally convinced simply on the basis of the evidence in that article.

Nor in fact by that story of the developed British film. Wasnt the story broken by 'The Sun'? (then again the Sun is usually quite patriotic)

Perhaps no more will be revealed but id rather wait before drawing a firm conclusion.

[9mm 0]

Imagine the same situation, but featuring Iraqis and Iranians or even Russians and Chechens. I am sure that the number of Handcuffed and execuded boddies would at leat dubble.

Americans try to run this war as clean as possible.

[Guest]

If handcuffed prisoners were executed by the coalition in an arbitrary manner though why the hell would they leave the handcuffs on the corpses? (if "people who had been handcuffed" is taken to mean that the handcuffs were still present)

Why the hell would somebody take picture of himself torturing prisoners and then develop the film in a regular photo shop?

Quote[/b] ]Nor in fact by that story of the developed British film. Wasnt the story broken by 'The Sun'? (then again the Sun is usually quite patriotic)

Regardless of who broke the story, the MOD is investigating it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Reminds me of the story in Afghanistan when US soldiers were accused of observing the mass-killing of Taliban prisoners by coalition forces without interfering.  

Clean war? Your perception of this war is based on the influx of information, and this information has been carefully filtered beforehand in order not disturb anyone in your cozy american neighbourhood! (just kiddin).

Clean? Do you call the following clean?

Quote[/b] ]However some foreign reporters have told more after being "un-embedded." One of several such reports comes from Laurent Van der Stockt, a photographer working for the Gamma agency and under contract for the New York Times Magazine. Van de Stockt followed the advance of the 3/4 Marines (3rd battalion, 4th regiment) for three weeks, up to the taking of Baghdad on April 9 and reported as an "embedded photographer": "I SAW MARINES KILL CIVILIANS." Written for Le Monde by Michel Guerrin and translated for CounterPunch by Norman Madarasz, May 18, 2003: (2)

Here are Van der Stockt's words: "We were spending a lot of time then with the 1500 Marines of the 3/4, commanded by Colonel Bryan P. McCoy. His troops gave us water, gas and food. In exchange for their tolerance, we respected the rules to not pass the convoy and to camp at such and such a place. We were just barely tolerated. The colonel could see that the 'few jokers were behaving well.' He knew we had experienced more wars than his own troops."

"Their motto is 'Search and Kill'. The 'Kilo' unit is nicknamed 'Killer Kilo'. The words 'Carnivore' or 'Blind Killer' are painted on their tanks. McCoy could snap with a 'Shame on You' a smile flashing across his face to the sniper who had just finished telling him: 'I've got eight, Sir, but only five'. Literally meaning: I've shot eight, but only five of them are dead."

"On April 6, we were at the outskirts of Baghdad, facing a strategic bridge the Americans called 'the Baghdad Highway Bridge.' Residential zones were now much greater in number. American snipers got the order to kill anything coming in their direction. That night a teenager who was crossing the bridge was killed."

"The Marines were advancing and taking up position, hiding behind mounds of earth. They were still really tense. A small blue van was moving towards the convoy. Three not-very-accurate warning shots were fired. The shots were supposed to make the van stop. The van kept on driving, made a U-turn, took shelter and then returned slowly. The Marines opened fire. All hell broke loose. They were firing all over the place. You could hear 'Stop firing' being shouted. The silence that set in was overwhelming. TWO MEN AND A WOMAN HAD JUST BEEN RIDDLED WITH BULLETS. So this was the enemy, the threat."

"A second vehicle drove up. The same scenario was repeated. Its passengers were killed on the spot. A grandfather was walking slowly with a cane on the sidewalk. They killed him too (see photo in Le Monde). As with the old man, the Marines fired on a SUV driving along the river bank that was getting too close to them. Riddled with bullets, the vehicle rolled over. Two women and a child got out, miraculously still alive. THEY SOUGHT REFUGE IN THE WRECKAGE. A FEW SECONDS LATER, IT FLEW INTO BITS AS A TANK LOBBED A TERSE SHOT INTO IT."

"WITH MY OWN EYES I SAW ABOUT FIFTEEN CIVILIANS KILLED IN TWO DAYS. I'VE GONE THROUGH ENOUGH WARS TO KNOW THAT IT'S ALWAYS DIRTY, THAT CIVILIANS ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST VICTIMS. BUT THE WAY IT WAS HAPPENING HERE, IT WAS INSANE." -(end Le Monde by Michel Guerrin)

Military lack of conscience can only worsen by unnecessary acts of brutality. Perhaps even worse is the account of an 18 year old, British soldier on leave, caught in the act of developing photographs of his own unit torturing Iraqi POWs.

According to the May 30th, SUN story is about Gary Bartlam, 18, of the 1st Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers who is "being questioned by the Army's top criminal investigator" about photos he took of his unit apparently torturing Iraqi prisoners. But sickening aspect of this story is the fact that the soldier who took the photos was apparently proud of what he was doing and wanted to bring home the evidence. The SUN story further stated, "The investigations into torturing Iraqi POWs come as British Defense Minister Adam Ingram admitted that the Anglo-American forces did use cluster bombs in densely populated areas during the Iraq invasion."

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Why the hell would somebody take picture of himself torturing prisoners and then develop the film in a regular photo shop?"

The ministry of Defence as you note is investigating what happened and that investigation is ongoing (or at least has not reported conclusions). What happened has not been established for certain. A stupid private could have snapped pictures and taken them to a photo shop. A group of privates or lower ranks could have screwed around with Iraqi POWs

But executing handcuffed militants? I dont think coalition soldiers would do that just on their 'initiative' (unless the prisoners tried to escape), the execution would seem to suggest an order or at least specific ROE in which troops felt safe doing such a thing (maybe what Tex posted is relevant).

Albert Schweizers quoted article (if we ignore its obvious bias) illustrates the kind of mistakes that have reportedly been made all too frequently in the chaotic battlegrounds of Iraq.

Of course armed forces have criminals just like all other sectors of society who should be punished accordingly. But im not sure that, assuming all the allegations to be true (which i am not prepared to do), the two incidents mentioned (the alleged torture and the alleged execution) are of a similar nature.

[Guest]

A group of privates or lower ranks could have screwed around with Iraqi POWs

Not necessarily lower ranks. Have you already forgotten about the illustrious Colonel Tim Collins?

Quote[/b] ]But executing handcuffed militants? I dont think coalition soldiers would do that just on their 'initiative' (unless the prisoners tried to escape), the execution would seem to suggest an order or at least specific ROE in which troops felt safe doing such a thing (maybe what Tex posted is relevant).

Or they are pretty certain that it won't be followed up. The US military has a grand history of protecting its own war criminals.

Quote[/b] ]Albert Schweizers quoted article (if we ignore its obvious bias) illustrates the kind of mistakes that have reportedly been made all too frequently in the chaotic battlegrounds of Iraq.

Torture and executions can hardly be blamed on a "chaotic battleground". Shooting peaceful civilian demonstrator - perhaps - if you have a good barrister. Killing and mistreating restrained POWs - hardly.

Quote[/b] ]Of course armed forces have criminals just like all other sectors of society who should be punished accordingly. But im not sure that, assuming all the allegations to be true (which i am not prepared to do), the two incidents mentioned (the alleged torture and the alleged execution) are of a similar nature.

The British POW torture case has already been proven beyond all doubt. They even showed the pictures in question on Swedish television. I assume that your fair and unbiased BBC did the same thing? And btw the soldier in question has already been arrested. You don't arrest your own soldiers on baseless accusations, now do you?

Now as for the execution case, I agree that there is nowhere near enough information to ascertain what really happened. What I am saying that based on previous documented cases of Geneva convention violations and the willingness of the military command to look the other way, it's not at all unlikely that those accusations are true. It could really be either way.

[Longinius 1]

"But executing handcuffed militants? I dont think coalition soldiers would do that just on their 'initiative' (unless the prisoners tried to escape), the execution would seem to suggest an order or at least specific ROE in which troops felt safe doing such a thing (maybe what Tex posted is relevant)."

Why wouldnt coalition troops be capable of this? American soldiers did far worse things during the Vietnam War for example. I doubt man has changed so much since then. Hate, fear, ignorance and adrenaline probably still work much the same way.

[Balschoiw 0]

the beat goes on....

US convoi attacked

[FallenPaladin 0]

It seems like the resistance is getting stronger. As far as I know there have been two attacks at one day with grenadelaunchers on US military.

[Longinius 1]

Now, this is to funny NOT to post

After a long period of searching with UN inspectors and a war, no WMD's have been found in Iraq. They have however been found in the US.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,320594,00.html

" Utgrävningarna startade för tvĺ ĺr sedan pĺ ett fält utanför Fort Detrick efter att cancerframkallande ämnen hittats i grundvattnet.

Hittills har 40 fat, 113 flaskor och 50 cylindrar grävts fram. I flaskorna hittades bland annat bakterier och virus som orsakar hjärnhinneinflammation, lunginflammation och infektionssjukdomen listerios. Dessutom hittades e. coli-bakterier som orsakar diarré och brucella-bakterier som smittar bland annat nötkreatur och som kan spridas till människor."

Apparently a big cache of bio weapons has been found buried on a field outside of Fort Detrick near the city of Frederick in Maryland. They have so far found 40 barrels, 113 bottles and 50 cylinders of the stuff which includes bacteria and virus that cause inflamations to the brain (think its called menin...something), pnuemonia and listerosis. They have also found e. colibacteria and brucella bacteria.

Seems the trip to Iraq for finding WMD's was a waste. Could have just gone to Maryland and saved all the cash.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

US Soldier killed by sniper-BBC

The cycle of attacks on US soldiers continues.

[Jinef 2]

I predicted this was going to happen, oh well it will be a good lesson to the Americans, once about 500 or so are killed people are going to start questioning the administration hopefully.

Why can't people learn from our mistakes, Britain is the master of fucking these things up, we have been everywhere and if it can be screwed up no doubt we've tried it, if only people didn't have to try out everything themselves.

The soldier who tortured POWs then snapped it will very probably not have a nice time in military prison, hopefully this will not happen much more, it damages the entire organisation's reputation. What Denoir said about the BBC, i would say it is a fairly extensive news network, and usually is unbiased, but when it comes to these situations they like almost every other major news agency will try to protect their goverment's interests. After the initial announcement of this and what action the MOD was taking there was not much more mention of, in no way did they twist facts to protect anyone, i do not watch the news on TV much, it's a bit too reliant on pictures so i listen to the radio. I doubt though the BBC would have published pictures of tortured Iraqi POWs mainly because Britian was a major player in this war, it has been trying to convince the world that this war was justified (and failing miserably) so it isn't going to then start declaring about how they badly treated some poor sods in Iraq.

[Major Fubar 0]

US Soldier killed by sniper-BBC

The cycle of attacks on US soldiers continues.

Sad, but that's the risk any occupying force takes...quite frankly, I'm surprisd there hasn't been more incidents like this...

[Col. Kurtz 0]

US Soldier killed by sniper-BBC

The cycle of attacks on US soldiers continues.

Sad, but that's the risk any occupying force takes...quite frankly, I'm surprisd there hasn't been more incidents like this...

I think as time goes on attacks on US forces are going to increase. Many people in Iraq are already unhappy with the occupation, and the longer coalition forces are there, and as long as long as the country doesn't have free elections, tension and anger in Iraq is going to increase. I would not be surprised if in time we see rebellions and widespread violence on a daily basis. The coalition need to make major moves to make the majority of Iraqis happy or they are going to have a lot of trouble.

[Crazysheep 1]

US Soldier killed by sniper-BBC

The cycle of attacks on US soldiers continues.

Sad, but that's the risk any occupying force takes...quite frankly, I'm surprisd there hasn't been more incidents like this...

I think as time goes on attacks on US forces are going to increase. Many people in Iraq are already unhappy with the occupation, and the longer coalition forces are there, and as long as long as the country doesn't have free elections, tension and anger in Iraq is going to increase. I would not be surprised if in time we see rebellions and widespread violence on a daily basis. The coalition need to make major moves to make the majority of Iraqis happy or they are going to have a lot of trouble.

I heard from a leftist Russian website (irakwar.ru-some of the responses to articles may be found offensive, you have been warned) that the real organised rebellion takes place on the 6th of July......

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

handcuffed?

If I would be an Iraqi I would better think twice before letting anyone handcuff me!

[Col. Kurtz 0]

More news from the BBC-US soldiers fire into protesting Iraqi ex-soldiers

It seems the US soldiers feelings were a bit hurt when rocks started coming their way so they fired into the crowd.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Have they never heared of using teargas in such situations or other non lethal tools?

[WhoCares 0]

I guess the demonstration was an act of war, and in this case they are not allowed to use teargas

[theavonlady 2]

It would help to read the details before commenting.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Have they never heared of using teargas in such situations or other non lethal tools?  

No!

In times of war you have to make clear that you are strict on imposing rules and order. Otherwise there is no way to succeed in the long-term. To a certain extent I believe shooting into the crowd can indeed be the right solution! (sounds barbaric I know, but lets be realistic)

[FallenPaladin 0]

So they attacked them with rocks and shoes...

Shooting into a crowd of demonstrants when they are throwing rocks and stones or hitting other people with their shoes is ok? Hell, we often have demonstrations and riots here in Germany on certain days and after soccer games where the people even throw molotov-cocktails and other stuff without our police forces firing into them and killing them.

The best for the Iraqis would be the US forces out of Iraq and more British troops in there. At least they can handle such situations better!

[FallenPaladin 0]

Have they never heared of using teargas in such situations or other non lethal tools?  

No!

In times of war you have to make clear that you are strict on imposing rules and order. Otherwise there is no way to succeed in the long-term. To a certain extent I believe shooting into the crowd can indeed be the right solution! (sounds barbaric I know, but lets be realistic)

Officially there`s no more war.

[theavonlady 2]

Officially there`s no more war.

Ever hear of military rule or marshall law?

[FallenPaladin 0]

Yes, sure. That makes everything so much easier. If someone pisses you of you shoot him.

Since Bush jr. is on duty the whole world is under martial law. Preemtive strikes can hit you any time in certain countries.

Imagine a little country with rich ressources (oil, diamonds, other stuff) led by a military leadership. If they killed their opposers that would be ok, because they live under a permanent state of military rule. Next think would be the USA setting up a "regime change" or invasion!