The Iraq Thread

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Jan. 16 2003,13:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If nukes would not have been used in WW2, the wider public wouldn't have a clue how terrible those weapons are. Sad but true.<span id='postcolor'>

[sarcasm]And if Osama hadn't carried out 9/11, most Americans wouldn't know how horrible terrorism is. We should be thankful to him[/sarcasm]

There have been plenty of tests on animals to show how terrible those weapons are.

[Frisbee 0]

Why is it so many people put fascists and nazi's as the same thing?

Hitler twisted Nietzshe (sp?) Uebermensch theory around,applied it to races,used the fascism of eg Mussolini as a base in some things.

So...

Fascism = a political view which can be either,like all other views and it is not the same as Nazism.

Anyway,

Killing civilians is hard to justify,there were governement agencies in the WTC,having the right to attack civilians because they're assets would've justified this as well.

It's good Bush is doing something,but if the way he's going about it is good is more of a cause for debate.

[Jinef 2]

I don't see what there is to argue about on the topic of Japan and nuclear weapons. It was not conventional warfare but it did win the war, true you kill civilians but that is a price you pay for success.

America would have totally accepted their fate if the NVA with support from Russian and China nuked Washington wouldn't they? After all be ready to accept what you dose out right?

America's success so far has been luck in my opinion, it just hasn't picked a fight with a big enough player......yet!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Jan. 16 2003,16:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you think that nuking two civilian population centers is OK<span id='postcolor'>

Most interesting Truman diary entry.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 16 2003,17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Jan. 16 2003,16:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you think that nuking two civilian population centers is OK<span id='postcolor'>

Most interesting Truman diary entry.<span id='postcolor'>

Actions speak louder than words

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 16 2003,18:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actions speak louder than words<span id='postcolor'>

They sure do! The Japanese were quick to surrender after the second one was dropped.

[Tovarish 0]

Which is all fine and dandy if you believe that the end justifies the means

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 16 2003,19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Which is all fine and dandy if you believe that the end justifies the means<span id='postcolor'>

I believe the means themselves were justified under the circumstances.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 16 2003,08:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now, perhaps we should leave the nuke discussion and return on the topic of Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 16 2003,18:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 16 2003,19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Which is all fine and dandy if you believe that the end justifies the means<span id='postcolor'>

I believe the means themselves were justified under the circumstances.<span id='postcolor'>

Then why do you try to justify it further by showing mention of an order which was clearly not carried out? Should we feel simpathy for Truman because he assured his diary that women and children wouldn't be targeted? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were clearly not "purely military"

[FSPilot 0]

But Truman wasn't responsible for it. Truman wanted to target military targets, his military leaders decided on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 16 2003,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But Truman wasn't responsible for it.  Truman wanted to target military targets, his military leaders decided on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.<span id='postcolor'>

I thought this argument would come up. The president is always ultimately responsible for the actions of those under his command.

[FSPilot 0]

Yes and no. At least IMO. He told them to bomb a purely military target, and they didn't. If he wasn't in control of them he can't be held accountable.

[Tovarish 0]

If he lost control of them he is accountable until the person who made the decision against his wishes is held accountable.

[FSPilot 0]

so who do you plan on putting theblame on?

*checks watch*

i dont think i lasted two days not arguing with you

[nopulse 0]

What disgusts me is that American soldiers are going to war and lose their lives over OIL!

Can anyone blame Iraq for getting a bit upset about the U.S or UN poking their noses around in Iraq? I mean think about it, if your neighbor or some stranger walks into your backyard and starts snooping around and demands to see what you have, I think you would be a bit upset too.

Does the U.S openly tell countries like Iraq the top secret weapons that the SkunkWorks project are developing over in Nevada? Or how many nukes they have? Of course not! I mean come on, the U.S has nukes, don't tell me the actually dismantled all of them.

Is Iraq that much a threat? Has Saddam even used any chemical or biological weapons? If he was that much of a threat as the media and propaganda has hyped him to be, then he would have already cast the first stone, so to speak!

People were afraid of Russia when it was a big super power back during the cold war. I'm afraid of America! They are the scarest super power in the world....

"Imagine a boot stepping on a human face forever"

- George Orwell -

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 16 2003,13:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so who do you plan on putting theblame on?

*checks watch*

i dont think i lasted two days not arguing with you <span id='postcolor'>

Alright already, I think all of us wanting to discuss Hiroshima might want to PM each other or just have a different topic if necessary. It is clearly not going to affect this Iraq discussion for all the participating members.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nopulse @ Jan. 17 2003,03:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

First, thank you nopulse for getting back on subject.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What disgusts me is that American soldiers are going to war and lose their lives over OIL!<span id='postcolor'>

This has nothing to do with oil.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can anyone blame Iraq for getting a bit upset about the U.S or UN poking their noses around in Iraq? I mean think about it, if your neighbor or some stranger walks into your backyard and starts snooping around and demands to see what you have, I think you would be a bit upset too.<span id='postcolor'>

No, you can blame them for getting upset. It was part of their terms of surrender to allow UN inspectors to inspect their country.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does the U.S openly tell countries like Iraq the top secret weapons that the SkunkWorks project are developing over in Nevada? Or how many nukes they have? Of course not! I mean come on, the U.S has nukes, don't tell me the actually dismantled all of them.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually I think we did. Either way it doesn't matter. We're not going to use them. We're not some crazed dictator who will do anything to hold on to power.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is Iraq that much a threat? Has Saddam even used any chemical or biological weapons? If he was that much of a threat as the media and propaganda has hyped him to be, then he would have already cast the first stone, so to speak!<span id='postcolor'>

Yes he is a threat, and yes he gassed the kurds a while back. And he did cast the first stone, he invaded Kuwait. He also violated his terms of surrender numerous times.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People were afraid of Russia when it was a big super power back during the cold war. I'm afraid of America! They are the scarest super power in the world....<span id='postcolor'>

Well people fear the unknown. I guess you just don't know much about America.

[FSPilot 0]

As a sidenote I remember watching a show last night (history channel, is there any other channel?) on the weapons inspectors in 1998. It gave a list of all the weapons of mass destruction that they destroyed, and a list of all the known weapons they did not destroy.

Just in case anybody wants to tune in and watch. if you ask me it's unbiased, but then again it agrees with me, so i might be biased about it's bias

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nopulse @ Jan. 16 2003,22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What disgusts me is that American soldiers are going to war and lose their lives over OIL!  <span id='postcolor'>

We've done it before, and people have lost their lives for less

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can anyone blame Iraq for getting a bit upset about the U.S or UN poking their noses around in Iraq?  I mean think about it, if your neighbor or some stranger walks into your backyard and starts snooping around and demands to see what you have, I think you would be a bit upset too.

<span id='postcolor'>

If you had invaded two of your neighbors' backyards in the last 20 years and used chemical weapons on  your family dog, then maybe your analogy would hold up. As of now though, it doesn't.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does the U.S openly tell countries like Iraq the top secret weapons that the SkunkWorks project are developing over in Nevada?  Or how many nukes they have? Of course not!  I mean come on, the U.S has nukes, don't tell me the actually dismantled all of them.

<span id='postcolor'>

We've published several reports listing our full strategic weapons invetories. And no, we don't tell you what we made at Skunkworks (which is now defunct), but it wasn't anthrax or mustard gas.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is Iraq that much a threat?  Has Saddam even used any chemical or biological weapons?  If he was that much of a threat as the media and propaganda has hyped him to be, then he would have already cast the first stone, so to speak!

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, he is (sort of), and yes, he has. And if you ignore the two major conflicts he has initiated in the last 20 years, then no, he hasn't cast the first stone.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People were afraid of Russia when it was a big super power back during the cold war.  I'm afraid of America!  They are the scarest super power in the world....

<span id='postcolor'>

Unless your backyard is a massive oil reserve and/or you have WMDs, then you have no need to worry.

[Akira 0]

Back on topic...

Inspectors Find Empty Weapons

UN claims they were undeclared. Iraq of course said they were.

The plot thickens...

EDIT: Saudi's Pushing for Coup?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 17 2003,04:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">EDIT: Saudi's Pushing for Coup?<span id='postcolor'>

I dont get it. they're trying to stop a war... by starting a war (well, a coup)

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nopulse @ Jan. 16 2003,22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What disgusts me is that American soldiers are going to war and lose their lives over OIL!  

Can anyone blame Iraq for getting a bit upset about the U.S or UN poking their noses around in Iraq?  I mean think about it, if your neighbor or some stranger walks into your backyard and starts snooping around and demands to see what you have, I think you would be a bit upset too.

Does the U.S openly tell countries like Iraq the top secret weapons that the SkunkWorks project are developing over in Nevada?  Or how many nukes they have? Of course not!  I mean come on, the U.S has nukes, don't tell me the actually dismantled all of them.

Is Iraq that much a threat?  Has Saddam even used any chemical or biological weapons?  If he was that much of a threat as the media and propaganda has hyped him to be, then he would have already cast the first stone, so to speak!

People were afraid of Russia when it was a big super power back during the cold war.  I'm afraid of America!  They are the scarest super power in the world....

"Imagine a boot stepping on a human face forever"

- George Orwell -<span id='postcolor'>

Iraq has used chemical weapons on people. In some local confilcts of theirs... as well on his own people!

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What disgusts me is that American soldiers are going to war and lose their lives over OIL!  <span id='postcolor'>

No Pulse if it is all about the oil, why didn't the US take it the first time?  Why stop then?  Last time I checked, the gas price wasn't too bad in Iowa?  I guess 11 years of breaking U.N resolutions that Saddam himself agreed to has nothing to do with it.  I guess 11 years of his SAM's and MIG's engaging U.N. mandated flights over the no fly zone have nothing to do with it.  Will it take a dead pilot to justify attacks,  maybe 10 dead pilots?  The mere fact that he engages U.N. aircraft today is a violation of the latest U.N. resolution.  When will the U.N. get some balls!

If we do nothing, he could end up being North Korea part II.  Then you will wonder why and how he got that way.  Plus, he will be infinately more dangerous and impossible to disarm.  I personally would rather he be dealt with now, while he is weak.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 16 2003,18:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 17 2003,04:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">EDIT: Saudi's Pushing for Coup?<span id='postcolor'>

I dont get it.  they're trying to stop a war... by starting a war (well, a coup)<span id='postcolor'>

Saudi brilliance at it's finest.