The Iraq Thread

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One was specifically designed to end a war and save lives (lives on ALL sides).

One was designed to take lives and start a war.

No...I don't see a similarity at all.<span id='postcolor'>

Both were killing civilians in context of a bigger conflict. The WTC attacks were meant to make US rethink its Mid East policy. If the US withdrew all its interests in the Mid East it would save lives on all sides too.

While the ideology and principle is the same, the events are not comparable. The abombs killed about 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 75,000people in Nagasaki (source). That makes it a sum of over 200,000 murdered civilians (this is just those that were killed instantly by the blast). That can't be compared to 3000 that were murdered in the WTC attacks.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 15 2003,04:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then let me ask this.

Given that you were fighting a 4 year long war against a tenacious enemy.

You have these choices.

1-Invade mainland Japan.

2-Drop the bomb.

3-Try to settle it diplomatically. Japan is demanding the Emporer stay as head, retention of China and Korea, and teh re-establishment of resource shipments.

What is your choice?<span id='postcolor'>

I'd go for number 2. Yes, many civilians could be caught in crossfire or possibly died as refugees. Nevertheless, I would not target civilians. Not in Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden or any other place. You are supposed to fight a war against soldiers - not civilians. No matter what!<span id='postcolor'>

Then where is your equal denunciation of the Buzz Bombs? Of Japanese atrocities (or should I bring up links...they will probably get erased since they show not so pleasant images)?

All I hear are the mention of places Allies were.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then where is your equal denunciation of the Buzz Bombs? Of Japanese atrocities (or should I bring up links...they will probably get erased since they show not so pleasant images)?

All I hear are the mention of places Allies were.<span id='postcolor'>

So two wrongs make a right? No wonder the US dosen't go for the international war crimes court. WHat gives you the right to denounce terrorism if you partake in it?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 15 2003,04:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then let me ask this.

Given that you were fighting a 4 year long war against a tenacious enemy.

You have these choices.

1-Invade mainland Japan.

2-Drop the bomb.

3-Try to settle it diplomatically. Japan is demanding the Emporer stay as head, retention of China and Korea, and teh re-establishment of resource shipments.

What is your choice?<span id='postcolor'>

I'd go for number 2. Yes, many civilians could be caught in crossfire or possibly died as refugees. Nevertheless, I would not target civilians. Not in Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden or any other place. You are supposed to fight a war against soldiers - not civilians. No matter what!<span id='postcolor'>

Then where is your equal denunciation of the Buzz Bombs? Of Japanese atrocities (or should I bring up links...they will probably get erased since they show not so pleasant images)?

All I hear are the mention of places Allies were.<span id='postcolor'>

I would say that the crimes of war or terrorism or whatever one chooses to call it - done by Germany, Italy or Japan pretty much speaks for themselves. We know so well how bad those actions were. However, that is no excuse to abolish criticism on some of our own actions during the war.

My grandfather was sent to the Sachsenhausen concentrationcamp and my own country was occupied during the war. I know very well about the terror my family had to endure during that time.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 15 2003,04:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One was specifically designed to end a war and save lives (lives on ALL sides).

One was designed to take lives and start a war.

No...I don't see a similarity at all.<span id='postcolor'>

Both were killing civilians in context of a bigger conflict. The WTC attacks were meant to make US rethink its Mid East policy. If the US withdrew all its interests in the Mid East it would save lives on all sides too.

While the ideology and principle is the same, the events are not comparable. The abombs killed about 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 75,000people in Nagasaki (source). That makes it a sum of over 200,000 murdered civilians (this is just those that were killed instantly by the blast). That can't be compared to 3000 that were murdered in the WTC attacks.<span id='postcolor'>

And anywhere from 200,000 to 300,000 (or more) civilians were killed in the Rape of Nanking, some being used for bayonet practice, or just simply marched to the Yangtze and machine gunned. Not to mention the estimated 80,000 women gathered and sent off to "rape camps."

EDIT: forgot an "f" in "off"

[bn880 5]

If it is just about the number of lives saved then by that logic:

US should withdraw from Mid-east, Israel may eventually get wiped out without the US support, but hey, how few lives is that, for so many other lives saved in the future. You tell me.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 15 2003,04:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then where is your equal denunciation of the Buzz Bombs? Of Japanese atrocities (or should I bring up links...they will probably get erased since they show not so pleasant images)?

All I hear are the mention of places Allies were.<span id='postcolor'>

So two wrongs make a right? No wonder the US dosen't go for the international war crimes court. WHat gives you the right to denounce terrorism if you partake in it?<span id='postcolor'>

Where did I say that?

But your denunciation of "terrorizing civilians" and revisionist terrorism is decidely one-sided.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 15 2003,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it is just about the number of lives saved then by that logic:

US should withdraw from Mid-east, Israel may eventually get wiped out without the US support, but hey, how few lives is that, for so many other lives saved in the future. You tell me.<span id='postcolor'>

How is Isreal being wiped out "saving lives."

I hope Avon Lady doesn't see this....

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where did I say that?<span id='postcolor'>

You justify the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings with atrocities carried out by the Japanese

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But your denunciation of "terrorizing civilians" and revisionist terrorism is decidely one-sided.<span id='postcolor'>

I can say the same of your defence

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How is Isreal being wiped out "saving lives."<span id='postcolor'>

Try repeating that same sentence and saying "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" instead of Israel.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And anywhere from 200,000 to 300,000 (or more) civilians were killed in the Rape of Nanking, some being used for bayonet practice, or just simply marched to the Yangtze and machine gunned. Not to mention the estimated 80,000 women gathered and sent off to "rape camps."

EDIT: forgot an "f" in "off"  <span id='postcolor'>

Your point being? I never said that one evil justifies another.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 14 2003,22:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 15 2003,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it is just about the number of lives saved then by that logic:

US should withdraw from Mid-east, Israel may eventually get wiped out without the US support, but hey, how few lives is that, for so many other lives saved in the future. You tell me.<span id='postcolor'>

How is Isreal being wiped out "saving lives."

I hope Avon Lady doesn't see this.... <span id='postcolor'>

The end of the spiral of violence? Do you not know the major conflicts in the middle east? Who is it between again? How many people on each side? Do you know the ratio?

Don't play this anti-simetic bs with me, you just pulled that out of your buttox.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm going to try and get some sleep, or whatever actually takes place this night.

[Akira 0]

*sigh*

For one I never justified Hiroshima and Nagasaki with accounts of other nations atrocities. I pointed out the fact that there were far worse atrocities comitted against civilians, and yet somehow those are not mentioned nor even denounced, and even glossed over, or even just given a "your point being?" Some empathy with the civilians there. If its not about the bomb and how evil it was, people don't want to hear it.

The bombings were a necessary evil. A calculated rick to end the war and save suffering by, in the grand scheme of things, causing far less suffering.

You can cry or moan or chant how bad the US was for it, but I say, given the circumstances AT THE TIME, there was no other option. And I will not second guess what happened with a modern view point that doesn't even fit into the event. A tragedy? Certainly. But far less than the one that could have taken place.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 15 2003,05:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 14 2003,22:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 15 2003,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it is just about the number of lives saved then by that logic:

US should withdraw from Mid-east, Israel may eventually get wiped out without the US support, but hey, how few lives is that, for so many other lives saved in the future. You tell me.<span id='postcolor'>

How is Isreal being wiped out "saving lives."

I hope Avon Lady doesn't see this.... <span id='postcolor'>

The end of the spiral of violence? Do you not know the major conflicts in the middle east? Who is it between again? How many people on each side? Do you know the ratio?

Don't play this anti-simetic bs with me, you just pulled that out of your buttox.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm going to try and get some sleep, or whatever actually takes place this night. <span id='postcolor'>

I didn't call you anti-semitic. Callous maybe...but not anti-semitic.

Now Avon Lady on the other hand......

Thats all I'm sayin'....

[OxPecker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 15 2003,04:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 14 2003,22:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A base would NOT deter the Military, and this is clearly backed up by the fact one nuked city didn't.

And apparently you missed my previous post. The US warned the Military a number of times that they were in possession of a "devastating bomb." The warnings went unheeded. The US did try to avoid casualties. The Military refused to give up.<span id='postcolor'>

So terrorism was chosen.  Get out of here, how can you not see the similarity between 2 757's and 2 nukes?  ???

EDIT: 4 Airliners... forgot about the pentagon etc...<span id='postcolor'>

One was specifically designed to end a war and save lives (lives on ALL sides).

One was designed to take lives and start a war.

No...I don't see a similarity at all.<span id='postcolor'>

So how is it living life with blinkers on, or should I say rose (red-white-and-blue?) coloured glasses. Wake up and smell the coffee, and stop being blinded by patriotism.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,05:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*sigh*

For one I never justified Hiroshima and Nagasaki with accounts of other nations atrocities. I pointed out the fact that there were far worse atrocities comitted against civilians, and yet somehow those are not mentioned nor even denounced, and even glossed over, or even just given a "your point being?" Some empathy with the civilians there. If its not about the bomb and how evil it was, people don't want to hear it.

The bombings were a necessary evil. A calculated rick to end the war and save suffering by, in the grand scheme of things, causing far less suffering.

You can cry or moan or chant how bad the US was for it, but I say, given the circumstances AT THE TIME, there was no other option. And I will not second guess what happened with a modern view point that doesn't even fit into the event. A tragedy? Certainly. But far less than the one that could have taken place.<span id='postcolor'>

[sarcasm]And yet you would deny Iraq the chance to prevent such a tragedy by depriving it of WMD's? [/sarcasm]

*edit* I have never said I don't care about who else committed atrocities, but I thought we were talking about who has WMD's and who's willing to use them

[brgnorway 0]

Right....let's go back to the topic!

......what was it about again.....

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OxPecker @ Jan. 15 2003,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,04:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 15 2003,04:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 14 2003,22:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A base would NOT deter the Military, and this is clearly backed up by the fact one nuked city didn't.

And apparently you missed my previous post. The US warned the Military a number of times that they were in possession of a "devastating bomb." The warnings went unheeded. The US did try to avoid casualties. The Military refused to give up.<span id='postcolor'>

So terrorism was chosen. Get out of here, how can you not see the similarity between 2 757's and 2 nukes?

EDIT: 4 Airliners... forgot about the pentagon etc...<span id='postcolor'>

One was specifically designed to end a war and save lives (lives on ALL sides).

One was designed to take lives and start a war.

No...I don't see a similarity at all.<span id='postcolor'>

So how is it living life with blinkers on, or should I say rose (red-white-and-blue?) coloured glasses. Wake up and smell the coffee, and stop being blinded by patriotism.<span id='postcolor'>

It funny how whenever someone doesn't agree with your view it "patriotism" or "blinded" or "being a sheep."

Get over yourself and get off yoru soap box. Accept that fact that there are people with a view point different than yours.

[FSPilot 0]

Does the 3 year old want to get a smallpox vaccine? No, of course not. It hurts. But will he be happy when he doesn't catch smallpox? Better be.

Did the US want to nuke Japan? No, of course not. It would kill civilians. But will EVERYONE, including the Japanese, be happy when there isn't a long drawn out ground war on Japanese homeland causing all types of casualties, including civilians? Better be.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 15 2003,05:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Right....let's go back to the topic!

......what was it about again..... <span id='postcolor'>

lol

I think that is the second time you tried this.

I'm done with this arguement. We all have our different views. What the hell was the topic?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 15 2003,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does the 3 year old want to get a smallpox vaccine? No, of course not. It hurts. But will he be happy when he doesn't catch smallpox? Better be.

Did the US want to nuke Japan? No, of course not. It would kill civilians. But will EVERYONE, including the Japanese, be happy when there isn't a long drawn out ground war on Japanese homeland causing all types of casualties, including civilians? Better be.<span id='postcolor'>

So you don't see the connection between terrorism and the US nuking a couple of cities, yet you see a connection between an atomic weapon and a vaccine.....right

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 15 2003,05:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 15 2003,05:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Right....let's go back to the topic!

......what was it about again.....   <span id='postcolor'>

lol

I think that is the second time you tried this.

I'm done with this arguement. We all have our different views. What the hell was the topic?<span id='postcolor'>

...it is the second time...

[NavyEEL 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 15 2003,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does the 3 year old want to get a smallpox vaccine?  No, of course not.  It hurts.  But will he be happy when he doesn't catch smallpox?  Better be.

Did the US want to nuke Japan?  No, of course not.  It would kill civilians.  But will EVERYONE, including the Japanese, be happy when there isn't a long drawn out ground war on Japanese homeland causing all types of casualties, including civilians?  Better be.<span id='postcolor'>

perfectly stated

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But will EVERYONE, including the Japanese, be happy when there isn't a long drawn out ground war on Japanese homeland causing all types of casualties, including civilians?  Better be.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I'm sure most japaneese are very gratefull for the a-bombs over Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I suppose that's why they have constructed a museum and marked off the day it happened in their calendar?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 15 2003,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But will EVERYONE, including the Japanese, be happy when there isn't a long drawn out ground war on Japanese homeland causing all types of casualties, including civilians? Better be.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I'm sure most japaneese are very gratefull for the a-bombs over Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I suppose that's why they have constructed a museum and marked off the day it happened in their calendar?<span id='postcolor'>

To be fair...

Its the "Peace Memorial" and memoralizes all those killed in the war, on both sides.