Would you be willing to die for your country?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 09 2002,23:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the other hand I did my service with the kustjägarna (costal rangers). We were taught and trained and I am a firm believer that desertion is the most contemptible act possible. My comrades and superiors must be able to trust me, just as I must be able to trust my comrades and those who serve under me. Although the current Swedish policy is to arrest deserters during war time, I would not hesitate one second of executing a deserter on the spot. As a soldier you don't have the big picture. The ones that you have your responsibility to is to the men next to you and the men under you.<span id='postcolor'>

A typical officer attitude: "I would not hesitate to shoot a deserter." What the hell would it accomplish, except make your men hate you? Do you really think that a soldier who does not desert just because he does not want to be shot by his officer is a useful soldier? I think not.

Deserting is not a honorable thing, but I'd rather see those who would still desert be kicked out of the unit, than fight next to me. A person forced to fight at gunpoint is not a good soldier whom I would trust with my life.

So rethink your officer stupidity, Denoir.

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Nov. 11 2002,22:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would, and I hope to go into the USAF and maybe fight in iraq<span id='postcolor'>

Lol. At 15 years old you better learn math and physics really well, not to mention jog and work out plenty too. The Airforce Academy doesn't exactly just hand out their F-15s to anyone who applies.

Besides, by the time you'd graduate (if you get accepted that is) around 25-26 years-old the war in Iraq will most definitely be over.

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Nov. 12 2002,08:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 09 2002,23:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the other hand I did my service with the kustjägarna (costal rangers). We were taught and trained and I am a firm believer that desertion is the most contemptible act possible. My comrades and superiors must be able to trust me, just as I must be able to trust my comrades and those who serve under me. Although the current Swedish policy is to arrest deserters during war time, I would not hesitate one second of executing a deserter on the spot. As a soldier you don't have the big picture. The ones that you have your responsibility to is to the men next to you and the men under you.<span id='postcolor'>

A typical officer attitude: "I would not hesitate to shoot a deserter." What the hell would it accomplish, except make your men hate you? Do you really think that a soldier who does not desert just because he does not want to be shot by his officer is a useful soldier? I think not.

Deserting is not a honorable thing, but I'd rather see those who would still desert be kicked out of the unit, than fight next to me. A person forced to fight at gunpoint is not a good soldier whom I would trust with my life.

So rethink your officer stupidity, Denoir.<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir is an officer? I thought he was enlisted.

That's a bad attitude there. I wouldn't go as far as to say that deserters should be executed. In time of war human emotions are stretched to their boundaries. Tons of soldiers lose their mind and one cannot be blamed for running away. Call him a wuss, a sissy if you will, but to execute him will prove you are on a lower level of intellect than he is.

What a disappointing stance you hold.

[Bart.Jan 0]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ Nov. 12 2002,159)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's a bad attitude there.  I wouldn't go as far as to say that deserters should be executed.  In time of war human emotions are stretched to their boundaries.  Tons of soldiers lose their mind and one cannot be blamed for running away.  Call him a wuss, a sissy if you will, but to execute him will prove you are on a lower level of intellect than he is.

What a disappointing stance you hold.<span id='postcolor'>

I think there are two situations during war time :

1) Desertion during or right before attack/defence. I think only way (for officer) how to solve this is to shoot deserter immediately. It should be very bad for morale to see - "If I run from fight I'll be only arrested and everithing will be fine." Other soldier must see that desertion is betrayal of teammates. Every soldier has his poisition in formation and his presence/absence can determine result of fight.

2) Desertion not from combat but before combat e.g. from troop movement. Deserter should be arrested and convicted of desertion (not shoot on sight). I think public execution (after military tribunal) is, again, good example for others.

Desertion must not be a good way how to stop away from fight.

Every officer is responsible for his soldiers and he must fulfil his orders. He can not let his men to flee from fight at any cost.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Nov. 12 2002,14:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A typical officer attitude: "I would not hesitate to shoot a deserter." What the hell would it accomplish, except make your men hate you? Do you really think that a soldier who does not desert just because he does not want to be shot by his officer is a useful soldier? I think not.

Deserting is not a honorable thing, but I'd rather see those who would still desert be kicked out of the unit, than fight next to me. A person forced to fight at gunpoint is not a good soldier whom I would trust with my life.

So rethink your officer stupidity, Denoir.<span id='postcolor'>

Shooting a deserter is not about deterrent but a punishement. The one who abandons his comrades and leave them in the shit to save his own arse doesn't deserve to live. During peace time I think that deserters should be kicked out of the military without any punitive consequences. War time is different.

And it is not an "officer attitude", as a matter of fact I became much softer on the issue after I got men under my command. Also, I am not talking about shooting any deserters, but people from my unit (and I can take confort in knowing that it will never happen). I'm not talking about draftee farm boys but kustjägare, who chose to be a part of it. They chose to accept an oath to defend their comrades and country. A desertion would be something so unimaginable that I can't describe it with words.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir is an officer? I thought he was enlisted.

<span id='postcolor'>

Second lieutenant in the reserves.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Call him a wuss, a sissy if you will, but to execute him will prove you are on a lower level of intellect than he is.

<span id='postcolor'>

What has intellect to do with it? This is not about being nice or humane. We are talking war here and for Sweden there is only one kind of possible war: a war for survival.

While those things that I have said refer to my unit, I entirely agree with Bart. Jan. I think that that is the best system for regular units.

Now, I might clarify also that those are my personal views only. Sweden abolished the death penalty for desertion years ago.

[DarkLight 0]

Shooting deserters......... I don't think it should be done, people don't desert cuz the battle is going fine, i know that i would desert if we were being slaughtered. But if the battle was going good then i'd stay. So would you shoot me cuz i don't feel like staying where i am and get shot anyway? Shit man, deserting should be possible when it gets really messy.

Imagine your whole squad being shot to pieces and you get the hell outta there, call me a coward, call me a sissy, at least i'm not so stupid to stay there while everone's being killed... If i'd see how a deserter would get killed i'd really feel the urge to shoot the guy who killed him. Fuck, you can't even know why the deserter ran away, perhaps he totally freaked. Is that a reason to die?

Man, some of you people really don't care about life...

[Guest]

Retreating from a fight is not the same as deserting. Deserting is when you permanetly run away from figthing.

If your squad is getting shot to pieces then your squad leader should make the decision to retreat. If you retreat although you have been ordered to stay put then you will be court martialed for disobeying orders, not deserting.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 11 2002,18:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Retreating from a fight is not the same as deserting. Deserting is when you permanetly run away from figthing.

If your squad is getting shot to pieces then your squad leader should make the decision to retreat. If you retreat although you have been ordered to stay put then you will be court martialed for disobeying orders, not deserting.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmmm, so what's wrong with leaving the army? You can't shoot someone for that, can you?

Sheesh, that's even worse!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 12 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmmmm, so what's wrong with leaving the army?  You can't shoot someone for that, can you?

Sheesh, that's even worse!<span id='postcolor'>

Of course you can in war time. First of all if you desert, you are abandoning your comerades who are in just as a shitty situation as you are but are fighting and risking their lives.

Second, do you think people in general like war and risk getting killed? Of course not. Everybody would be much happier if they did not have to fight. However unfortunately there are wars and your country might need its soldiers. If everybody chose to run away, who would be left to fight?

Shooting deserters shows that it isn't ok to run away. The only thing you can fight fear of death with is a fear of even sooner death.

That's war for you.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 11 2002,18:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First of all if you desert, you are abandoning your comerades who are in just as a shitty situation as you are but are fighting and risking their lives.<span id='postcolor'>

What about personal reasons? It should be possible i think. Oh well, i gotta do some stupid homework now, if i do it now, i'll be able to play some Vice city tonight

Yihaaa!

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 12 2002,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If everybody chose to run away, who would be left to fight?<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds like you've inadvertedly found the secret to world peace

[habdoel 0]

i would die for my friends, little children my girlfriend. Also for my country, but not for our king.

[Lord Ryan 0]

US sux

first CIA trains ben laden

then they give guns to irak and iran

they kill thousands of civilians and they n they wonder why they get 2 tower blowed up

and you get 200 paranoid americains saying 'goood blees ammeeereica"

if there is a god,why would he bless you and not other poeple on earth

[Erex 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Nov. 12 2002,14:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A typical officer attitude: "I would not hesitate to shoot a deserter." What the hell would it accomplish, except make your men hate you? Do you really think that a soldier who does not desert just because he does not want to be shot by his officer is a useful soldier? I think not.

Deserting is not a honorable thing, but I'd rather see those who would still desert be kicked out of the unit, than fight next to me. A person forced to fight at gunpoint is not a good soldier whom I would trust with my life.

So rethink your officer stupidity, Denoir.<span id='postcolor'>

At first i think its necessary to tell that im talking about war time. In peace conditions its everthing differtn and should be solved by law.

But you point of view on deserters rapidly change, wehn u are in life war. Imagine thta guard flee away and let the perimeter without protection for hours. That is thing thats directly threating youa and your friends. And similar is it when someone (for example LAW guuner) run away and let you face APCs or armors just with rifles and grenades.

So its easy to judge the opinion about shooting deserters from safety of your home. But when you are in middle of nowhere and in combat you dont have time for mercy. You have to shot deserters unless whole army decide to go home and you stay there alone.

Some people, who do call me "green brained" think that i enjoy war games etc, cause i want to go in war. Thats BS:

THE MOST SATISFIED SOLDIER IS THAT ONE, WHICH IS BASED CLOSE TO HOME, DO HAVE GF (NOT WIFE) AND ITS SUPOSED TIME TO TIME JUST PLAY ON WAR!!! NOT THE ONE SCARED EVERY NIGHT AND DAY FROM INCOMING FIRE.

This rule doesnt apply on paratroopeers and similar special foces (overall snake eaters ) im talking about common grunts  ;D

[ran 0]

you've all to understand that battle fatigue and psychological troubles caused by war situation can lead to desertion, and it's often that the soldier didn't think enough about how to get out of the place he is in actually

i'm am sub-officer in charge of a squad , my role is to understand my men , and during my long military and paramilitary career , i've seen many different cases including a few desertions

most of the deserters just weren't good enough to support military life , it's just like when someone is strangling you , you tend not to ask kindly that person to remove her hands from your neck and to struggle a bit , i think that in most of the times , desertion is better than having a psychologically or/and physically weak man under your orders

i think that if a man is well trained , physically and mentally , he doesn't desert , but there are always a few black sheeps , and death is a too harsh sentance for them , if they get caught , i'm ok with a prison penalty or something approaching , but not death penalty , including in war time

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 12 2002,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 12 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmmmm, so what's wrong with leaving the army?  You can't shoot someone for that, can you?

Sheesh, that's even worse!<span id='postcolor'>

Of course you can in war time. First of all if you desert, you are abandoning your comerades who are in just as a shitty situation as you are but are fighting and risking their lives.

Second, do you think people in general like war and risk getting killed? Of course not. Everybody would be much happier if they did not have to fight. However unfortunately there are wars and your country might need its soldiers. If everybody chose to run away, who would be left to fight?

Shooting deserters shows that it isn't ok to run away. The only thing you can fight fear of death with is a fear of even sooner death.

That's war for you.<span id='postcolor'>

i think that nordic armies have different mentalities than central and southern europe armies , maybe because of the vikings and all the nordic and viking mythology

shooting deserters just make less people for disciplinary batalions

[ran 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Erex @ Nov. 12 2002,183)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you point of view on deserters rapidly change, wehn u are in life war. Imagine thta guard flee away and let the perimeter without protection for hours. That is thing thats directly threating youa and your friends. And similar is it when someone (for example LAW guuner) run away and let you face APCs or armors just with rifles and grenades.<span id='postcolor'>

just stay back and look for every movements of your men , if one looks like he wants to leave the expedition , ask him gently to leave all his heavy weapons and to give you all his additional cargo of ammo , and it's also the role of the sub-officer in war time to observe the moral and mentality of his men , to discuss with them , and if ever they show signs of weakness , it's up to the sub officer in charge of that man to ask him to give the special weaponary to somebody more fiable

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So its easy to judge the opinion about shooting deserters from safety of your home. But when you are in middle of nowhere and in combat you dont have time for mercy. You have to shot deserters unless whole army decide to go home and you stay there alone.<span id='postcolor'>

a lot of the french resistants during WW2 were soldiers who had deerted during the german blitzkrieg , but who then took their honor in their hands and fought with it

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

THE MOST SATISFIED SOLDIER IS THAT ONE, WHICH IS BASED CLOSE TO HOME, DO HAVE GF (NOT WIFE) AND ITS SUPOSED TIME TO TIME JUST PLAY ON WAR!!! NOT THE ONE SCARED EVERY NIGHT AND DAY FROM INCOMING FIRE.

This rule doesnt apply on paratroopeers and similar special foces (overall snake eaters ) im talking about common grunts  ;D<span id='postcolor'>

you don't know how right you are

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

willing to die for my country? No way! But it would probably happen while I try to save it.

[Erex 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 12 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Erex @ Nov. 12 2002,18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you point of view on deserters rapidly change, wehn u are in life war. Imagine thta guard flee away and let the perimeter without protection for hours. That is thing thats directly threating youa and your friends. And similar is it when someone (for example LAW guuner) run away and let you face APCs or armors just with rifles and grenades.<span id='postcolor'>

just stay back and look for every movements of your men , if one looks like he wants to leave the expedition , ask him gently to leave all his heavy weapons and to give you all his additional cargo of ammo , and it's also the role of the sub-officer in war time to observe the moral and mentality of his men , to discuss with them , and if ever they show signs of weakness , it's up to the sub officer in charge of that man to ask him to give the special weaponary to somebody more fiable<span id='postcolor'>

Man you sounds like the right person on right place (if i got it right you are s.t. like sergeant ) and i wouldnt be affraid to serve under your command, cause you sound like good commader to me

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 12 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So its easy to judge the opinion about shooting deserters from safety of your home. But when you are in middle of nowhere and in combat you dont have time for mercy. You have to shot deserters unless whole army decide to go home and you stay there alone.<span id='postcolor'>

a lot of the french resistants during WW2 were soldiers who had deerted during the german blitzkrieg , but who then took their honor in their hands and fought with it <span id='postcolor'>

Same it was here, lot of soldiers who was ordered to retreat from borders when germany anected us, later goes into ressitance movement (sad is that almost whole 1 generation of ressistance was executed, and later the 2nd too after attack on that pig reichsprotektor Reinherd Heydrich) so only the 3nd genertion of ressistance fighters survived till end of WW II.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 12 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

THE MOST SATISFIED SOLDIER IS THAT ONE, WHICH IS BASED CLOSE TO HOME, DO HAVE GF (NOT WIFE) AND ITS SUPOSED TIME TO TIME JUST PLAY ON WAR!!! NOT THE ONE SCARED EVERY NIGHT AND DAY FROM INCOMING FIRE.

This rule doesnt apply on paratroopeers and similar special foces (overall snake eaters ) im talking about common grunts  ;D<span id='postcolor'>

you don't know how right you are<span id='postcolor'>

I know as i alreay told you in our private conversation even tought i dont have regular army experiences im quite active in police actions. And theres of course lot of older policemans with military and even combat experience. And on long night when u sit in car is always good time for old/new war stories This is the fastest way how to reckon the behaviour and their mind and fastest way to spend that phuckin night in that frozen car without thinkin on that your balls are changing into ice cubes.  

And to 2nd part i know really good bunch of "snake eaters"  

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Erex @ Nov. 12 2002,14:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Same it was here, lot of soldiers who was ordered to retreat from borders when germany anected us, later goes into ressitance movement (sad is that almost whole 1 generation of ressistance was executed, and later the 2nd too after attack on that pig reichsprotektor Reinherd Heydrich) so only the 3nd genertion of ressistance fighters survived till end of WW II. <span id='postcolor'>

Czechoslovakia had a formittable military force at the time Hitler annexed it. Too bad political corruption forced it to give in so easily.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 12 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just stay back and look for every movements of your men , if one looks like he wants to leave the expedition , ask him gently to leave all his heavy weapons and to give you all his additional cargo of ammo , and it's also the role of the sub-officer in war time to observe the moral and mentality of his men , to discuss with them , and if ever they show signs of weakness , it's up to the sub officer in charge of that man to ask him to give the special weaponary to somebody more fiable<span id='postcolor'>

Is that just your opinion or is it policy in the French military? : "Au revoir mon ami, here come the Germans again!"

j/k

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 12 2002,20:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 12 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just stay back and look for every movements of your men , if one looks like he wants to leave the expedition , ask him gently to leave all his heavy weapons and to give you all his additional cargo of ammo , and it's also the role of the sub-officer in war time to observe the moral and mentality of his men , to discuss with them , and if ever they show signs of weakness , it's up to the sub officer in charge of that man to ask him to give the special weaponary to somebody more fiable<span id='postcolor'>

Is that just your opinion or is it policy in the French military? : "Au revoir mon ami, here come the Germans again!"

j/k<span id='postcolor'>

it's my personnal opinion about the sub officer's role , i don't wanna shoot men with who i've lived during months , but i'll try to do my best to make him do it via the official way . and if it's not possible then ..... , he gives me his ammo and his rifle and all is possibly interresting gear

-edit-: i forgot : i would take him his rank and regimental insignas

the role of a sub officer is to listen and to examinate his men's thoughts and to take decisions according his men's moral and physical and psychological status

[Renagade 0]

I`d prrbably leave him with a basic rifle and a few clips so if he did run into enemy somehow hopefully he`d still be honourable enough to do as much damage to them as possible but then again it depends on situations.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 12 2002,20:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it's my personnal opinion about the sub officer's role , i don't wanna shoot men with who i've lived during months , but i'll try to do my best to make him do it via the official way . and if it's not possible then ..... , he gives me his ammo and his rifle and all is possibly interresting gear

-edit-: i forgot : i would take him his rank and regimental insignas

the role of a sub officer is to listen and to examinate his men's thoughts and to take decisions according his men's moral and physical and psychological status<span id='postcolor'>

That is a common fault with NCO's that have too much affection for their men and don't understand that everybody is just in a situation that is just a shitty as theirs.

On the othe hand it is also more likely that the squad or platoon leaders are the one executing the deserters out of rage of being betrayed by somebody they have lived with for months.

But you must understand that letting soldiers go home in a time of war doesn't work. That would be the end of all regular units where most people are there against their will.

[ran 0]

who told you about letting him go home ?

the chances of survival in a warzone are pretty small when alone and unarmed .....

i'm kinda sadistic