Someone wrote a thesis on ARMA 3

[ac.mack 5]

Agreed. Congratulations.

 

Thank you!  :)

[pwner 35]

Lol wut.

If BI adds female characters, I hope it's because there's some reasonable, legitimate real-world pretext to do so other than pandering to a presently near-nonexistent demographic.

Intent matters, it's not about snubbing anyone, it's about prioritization. If there is a legitimate premise to give such a design feature a serious look, then it doesn't matter, nobody's going to get upset.

People are so wrapped up in the political nonsense that they aren't seeing the bigger picture. Forget about "welcoming female gamers" or "creating a safe environment"; Adding Kristoff as a playable character isn't going to give Frozen Free Fall a 50% male audience, nor is it going to stop Twyla, age 7 and three quarters, from thinking Michael Wright, age 24, is a creep.

 

There is a legitimate premise to add this feature, and that's real world conflicts have women, whether they're in front of or behind the barrel. Women don't disintegrate the second a gun goes off. For the sake of authenticity, when my boxer truck explodes in front of Kavala Hospital, I should expect to see one or two female limbs to go flying as well as male limbs. When I fire into shops on streets of Athira, I should see women fleeing as well as men. Whether or not I am gunned down by a female member of the Altian security forces is up in the air, but it should not come as a surprise if I am.

 

Whether or not BI ultimately implements female characters in A3 is a question of time and money to them. Their intent will never be to please X or please Y. Their only intent is to attract more paying customers. BI is a business, not a government agency. BI isn't bleeding money from not having female characters, much like it isn't bleeding money because it scrapped the Keltec, or made the side door on the industrial sheds too small. They aren't going to drop everything to implement female characters. They will, and do take efforts to fix the things that do suck away their money, like when the modding ecosystem was threatened. BI instituted their monetization policy. BI's priority will always be its wallet. Their priority will always be fixing the things that are most important. But our priority, as customers, is the game, and female characters only add value to it. Who cares if Queen Sarkeesian and her legion of white knights have overthrown the government in a bloody coup. I just want to play make-believe and shoot pixel people.

[pd3 25]

Good point. My issue here was the use of "that chick" as it felt rather dismissive and I was concerned I'd be denied access because of the feminist/gamergate shitstorm that was going on at the time

Not trying to be an asshole or anything but you do acknowledge that is -entirely- your own perception, correct?

The problem I have with a lot of people of a particular socio-political persuasion is that they believe that nearly everything is or should be some sort of shared, public resource and should fall under the purview and governance by edicts that pretty much control how everyone behaves in any given situation. If you venture into closed social spheres, expect a little friction at first as people figure out who you are and what you're all about, that's pretty much universal for men negotiating the world of other men, so you should make necessary adjustments to your expectations instead of presuming some level of special treatment.

You have no idea how other people are treated by other players when gender isn't a factor, I've been playing games online since 1996 and I can definitely say that it is a universal human trait for people to respond to members of an outgroup differently than those whom you are familiar with.

This sort of irreverent regard for others happens ALL THE TIME online, and likely has gotten better in some circles than it was back in the 90s.

Again, I'm trying to be a dick, but if you want "equal treatment", you're about as close to it as you're going to get if you're treated no better or no worse than your average random person happening upon a group of individuals who are familiar with one another. Unless you're insinuating you wish to have some level of treatment adjusted by some metric for equality of outcome, then I'd say your treatment was not that far different considering the fact that you are in fact much further removed from the typical game-playing milieu as a result of your circumstances.

 

[pd3 25]

But our priority, as customers, is the game, and female characters only add value to it.

That is an assumption without merit, in fact that directly contradicts what is commonly understood about the quality of products as they penetrate an audience with a greater divergence in expectations.

Pandering to niche demographics for any reason is a disruptive process, especially if it is politically motivated.

It doesn't matter if it's fans of Battlefield, Call of Duty, or individuals espousing a given set of socio-political ideals.

It does not comport well with what Arma is and how it functions, in fact in many cases it seeks to subvert many of those fundamental qualities until it becomes an exceedingly average, convoluted mess that pleases nobody.

This is pretty much the reason why many multiplatform games have become so exceedingly mediocre and repetitive. On principle, the integrity of the series must persist above all other influences.

[Tankbuster 1733]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand a word pd3 says?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand a word pd3 says?

That's because he's odol not mlod.

[ceeeb 147]

Hey all -- so, I'm the one who wrote the thesis and I've really enjoyed reading all the comments and criticisms on here (seriously, super helpful perspectives)! If anyone has any feedback that they want to send me, I'd love it read/hear it. I'm in the process of turning some of the chapters into journal articles for publication.

 

ac

 

(ac.mack@uleth.ca)

 

I've only had a very quick look, but one thing stuck out - the title of the game. You should remove any reference to "Armed Assault 3", there's no such thing.

See this article by the developers about the name of Arma 2 but it's the same issue: https://www.bistudio.com/blog/arma-2-the-name-tale

[I give up 152]

I've only had a very quick look, but one thing stuck out - the title of the game. You should remove any reference to "Armed Assault 3", there's no such thing.

See this article by the developers about the name of Arma 2 but it's the same issue: https://www.bistudio.com/blog/arma-2-the-namDont

Dont be worried mate. thesis in general are just a load of bs. I have made one.

[pd3 25]

That's because he's odol not mlod.

I'm surprised somebody actually got the reference of my name.

[pd3 25]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand a word pd3 says?

I'm purposely being oblique so as to not stir up any more controversy than there already is.

If you're referring to this statement:

 

 

That is an assumption without merit, in fact that directly contradicts what is commonly understood about the quality of products as they penetrate an audience with a greater divergence in expectations.

What I was trying to communicate is that highly divergent interests ultimately dilutes and reduces the quality of a given product, some products can survive in this way, but their focus is entirely different from that of BI's business angle.

The more, as the turn of phrase goes: "basic bitch" consumers you have (no gender specificity intended), the overall less exceptional and distinctive your product is going to be, that is PURE market causality, and we've seen it with every major AAA franchise. They don't innovate because they are now buoying their sales by the lowest possible denominator, and those people tend to get lost when you try to innovate via design and gameplay at too fast a pace. In fact the absolute bottom margins of that demographic are effectively not going to appreciate certain levels of innovation at all, it's simply out of their grasp.

BI needs to make money, sure, however it also needs to protect it's brand unless it wants to compete with super-mediocre large franchises, which it will have to if it does not pay attention to things such as demographic creep.

The first-person gaming market is absolutely saturated, and the way BI has maintained it's corner of the market is by protecting and cultivating its brand.

So, "yes" more money is good, however brand dilution is bad.

To what extent BI can compromise in design before a considerable consumer demographic falls away and loses confidence might not be an exact threshold, but anyone with any sense can see where it might begin to occur.

I hope that clears things up, I just really didn't want to be using controversial terms unless somebody had a fit and became offended, but let's be honest here, a rose is a rose by any other name. 

BI simply cannot afford to survive serving an extremely demographically diluted customer base, even within the various sub-groups found in our user base, they essentially stemmed from the core Arma-playing individual, not any other single demographic could sustain the product otherwise.

Now the subject of female avatars has little to do with this subject, EXCEPT - if BI starts to capitulate to wholly external influences that have no actual interest in the product itself, but peripheral aspects of it.

The old story about a mouse wanting a cookie is prescient in this case.

 

[pwner 35]

Pandering to niche demographics

It does not comport well with what Arma is and how it functions, in fact in many cases it seeks to subvert many of those fundamental qualities until it becomes an exceedingly average, convoluted mess that pleases nobody.

A2, a game that lacks the fundamental qualities of ARMA and pleases nobody:

 

On principle, the integrity of the series must persist above all other influences.

And thus female characters should be added.

[silentghoust 132]

If BI adds female characters, it's not going to be about "catering to desires of Gender Studies graduates." It's going to be about simulating the other 50% of the human population. The way you put it, it sounds like you're unequivocally opposed to female characters, and I'm sure that's not true.

 

Short of marketing directly to females, I don't think females are going to like military shooters. It's supposed to be about (simulated) brutality and violence. Not many females like that. The women that do like that sort of thing are already playing. After all, you don't see John Doe skipping ARMA because there isn't a Kingdom of Narnia faction.

 

I disagree, have you played Counter-strike? It has a very large female community. The arma series really isn't that brutal. You don't chop peoples heads off, and you don't play campaigns were you massacre civilians at a airport. Can you make it brutal? Yes. But if we are to judge a game, we have to negate user behavior over the content we receive from the game first. I think a safer argument would be how much smaller the Arma community is vs other shooters.

[semiconductor 309]

@pwner

A. Feedback Tracker does not provide any information about game's demographic. Your screenshot just indicates that there is severe controversy inside the current community concerning female soldier models, nothing more.

B. Females in Arma 2 & OA are unable to hold weapons unless an appropriate mod is installed. Since you apparently don't have a problem with "modded" females, I don't really see why you still insist that BI should add them in vanilla.

[pwner 35]

Feedback Tracker does not provide any information about game's demographic.

but

there is severe controversy inside the current community concerning female soldier models

The current community (people who bought the game) != the game's demographic (people who buy the game).

Okay.

 

 

Since you apparently don't have a problem with "modded" females, I don't really see why you still insist that BI should add them in vanilla.

Most people would expect native features in each successive iteration of a product to get better, not worse. From A2 to A3, female characters have gone from not being armed to not existing at all.

[semiconductor 309]

The current community (people who bought the game) != the game's demographic (people who buy the game).

Okay.

The opinion of people who are already interested in the product does not necessarily coincide with that of people who aren't interested in it. Just because 67% of players would love to see female models does not necessarily mean that lack of these models is the reason why "50% of the market" isn't buyng the game.

 

Most people would expect native features in each successive iteration of a product to get better, not worse.

Only the features that had proved themselves useful and justified the cost of their development. I believe that's the reason why many Arma 2's features were scrapped. And while I agree that representation of civilian life in Arma 3 is almost non-existing compared to Arma 2, I don't have a real problem with that. BI had shelved this not really important feature in order to concentrate on something that really matters - infantry gameplay. Fine by me. If I had to choose between Arma with loads of civilian content but with poor military gameplay and current Arma I would without hesitation choose the latter.

[pd3 25]

My point, since you've seemed to have missed it was: 

That BI will eventually do so when it deems the time is right, and if it has any respect for the actual consumer base will not cater to external influences that don't represent the primary interests of the community.

Psst - in case you hadn't noticed a LOT of people are confused and rather unhappy about the most recent update. This is kind of one of those hypothetical "zero-sum" circumstances I have been alluding to.

Making disingenuous attempts at demographic gerrymandering is missing the point, it's obviously not a primary concern and thus far the need for female characters has been served quite well by the addon community.

My responses were highlighting how you were trying to ignore the blatant attempt at influence by individuals who really didn't have a terribly great amount of personal investment in the game.

To quote Semiconductor
 

 

The opinion of people who are already interested in the product does not necessarily coincide with that of people who aren't interested in it. Just because 67% of players would love to see female models does not necessarily mean that lack of these models is the reason why "50% of the market" isn't buyng the game.

He's pointing out some seriously whacked-out logic, again, more dishonest demographic gerrymandering.

It is objectively BAD for your business to try and serve demographics who haven't already demonstrated any interest in your product by diverting resources from people who have. This isn't an "untapped market", this conflates more with expending a disproportionate amount of resources at the likely expense of existing customers, as I've said before, it's a matter of zero-sum game.

Secondly, there's nothing stopping people from creating accounts and ostensibly "ballot-box stuffing" in that particular circumstance, because it's a contentious issue and because of the influences at play, that is something that simply cannot be ignored. A better metric in determining whether or not a given feature is desired is based on whether those who have a vested interest in the game take the time to express how an aspect of the game is/not being served by the existence or lack of a given feature.

Case in point, quite a few people have made quite a few threads expressing considerable trepidation about the functionality of the most recent patch. We're simply not seeing that with regard to female avatars from most individuals who AREN'T observable outliers. That being said, in the spirit of realism, I do think BI may consider implementing this for the next game based on current events.

To summarize some other points, because you don't quite seem to get it:

- This is not a matter of a moral imperative being observed or ignored, to claim so is merely a matter of opinion and can easily be discarded as such

- BI should prioritize its application of resources, and it should do so based on whether it is a worthwhile endeavor for the improvement of the product as it pertains to its existing user base

- BI should primarily listen to the expressed concerns from its committed users, not culture critics and other outliers who have a greater interest in altering human behavior than affecting the actual functioning of the game, when such influences exist from outliers, there needs to be automatic resistance and evaluation as a matter of principle. It must be reconciled with the interests of the people who have invested in the product.

- BI needs to have confidence that its product will attract the appropriate consumer base by focusing on making the product better for those aforementioned committed users; not for people who have never demonstrated an interest in the game prior, that again is bad for business.

[pwner 35]

People are so wrapped up in the political nonsense that they aren't seeing the bigger picture. Forget about "welcoming female gamers" or "creating a safe environment"; Adding Kristoff as a playable character isn't going to give Frozen Free Fall a 50% male audience, nor is it going to stop Twyla, age 7 and three quarters, from thinking Michael Wright, age 24, is a creep.

 

There is a legitimate premise to add this feature, and that's real world conflicts have women, whether they're in front of or behind the barrel. Women don't disintegrate the second a gun goes off. For the sake of authenticity, when my boxer truck explodes in front of Kavala Hospital, I should expect to see one or two female limbs to go flying as well as male limbs. When I fire into shops on streets of Athira, I should see women fleeing as well as men. Whether or not I am gunned down by a female member of the Altian security forces is up in the air, but it should not come as a surprise if I am.

BI answers to its wallet, not political activists. By all means, if you disagree with the politics of certain advocates for implementing female characters, go ahead. But that doesn't make female character assets in themselves objectively bad for the game. Everyone breathes oxygen. A disagreeable person breathing oxygen doesn't make the act of breathing oxygen bad.

[semiconductor 309]

When I fire into shops on streets of Athira, I should see women fleeing as well as men.

 

Since you apparently don't have a problem with "modded" females, I don't really see why you still insist that BI should add them in vanilla.

[chortles 263]

I didn't, no - at least not that I was aware of.   This was mostly for language reasons (Japanese is my only second language and I only have a mid-level fluency these days). But I was also concerned with the idea of representation. I'm not sure any researcher can ever adequately/accurately represent the "other" (as you guys have noted, parts of my analysis don't quite fit your models and vice versa). But, at least if the gamers were of my tribe (North American and European) I might get a little bit closer. I hope that makes sense.

I understand your language reasoning, although I'm of the belief that there's at least something of a Japanese- and/or Korean-language Arma "scene" (or "tribe"?) as opposed to 'merely' individual Japanese and/or Koreans playing Arma 3 (i.e. Japanese and Traditional Chinese playthroughs of The East Wind) based on co-op videos by both Japanese and Korean speakers, and there's been a Chinese-language Arma player base since at least Arma 2, with the VME PLA mod dating all the way back to Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis/Arma: Cold War Assault... to say nothing of the Russian scene! I understand that there is a Latin American scene with multiple player communities both in Spanish and in Brazilian Portuguese, but I am admittedly less aware of the specifics, and I confess to even less regarding the Southeast Asian Arma scene.

 

Despite these, I definitely consider them part of "the" overall/wider global Arma player base and would be interested in their perspectives were they as readily able to be communicated with as those who speak or write English, whether on these forums or elsewhere. Therefore, in the overall I asked you because that's five separate language-specific Arma player bases that your criterion omitted, and I do have an interest in wondering whether a contact from one of them who also spoke/wrote English would have been enough to attempt to include/account for/explore their communities or whether it'd have been deemed too narrow a sample unless that led to an Unit.

 

Finally, truthbetold your concern with the idea of representation struck a chord with me because I am among those interested in seeing the PLA or an analogue appear in the Arma 3: Apex DLC, but correspondingly I am interested in Chinese Arma players' perspective on the idea of a Bohemia-made representation of the Chinese military (in name or via an analogue) and were I more proficient... yeah, I'd definitely be asking.

[pwner 35]

Few mods ever come close to the quality of first-party assets. If the mods for female characters matched the quality and depth that a first-party implementation would, I would gladly use them. The current mods are noble efforts, but they don't. There's a reason why VTS Weapon Resting quietly disappeared when BI implemented bipods.

As ac.mack explained:

when he [the anthropologist] is presented a structural model which departs from empirical reality, he feels cheated in some devious way

The same can be said for those who are reminded that their simulation departs from empirical reality

[semiconductor 309]

Few mods ever come close to the quality of first-party assets.

Yes, because development of high-quality assets is costly and time-consuming and that fact will inevitably mean that some other assets/features should be put aside. Arma, being a infantry shooter, has more pressing issues than implementation civilian life or representing a minor fraction of people serving in some militaries. As p3d have said, BI will probably implement both at some point in the future but they aren't a priority right now for several reasons summarized in previous posts.

 

Besides I don't think that less than AAA-game quality of certain modification was ever considered as a valid reason to not to use it, in Arma community at least. Personally, I'm here for great gameplay, not for fancy textures.

[instagoat 133]

I'm a quarter of the way in, pretty interesting. If anything, this will be worth something in the future simply for the fact that it records a snippet of our culture and the culture of A3 clans in particular, and an analysis of it.

 

This is worth something simply because she took the time to think about the game, about the community and the problems and positives that we have. I'll download this and read it later, and then come back and hope I can still keep up with the conversation in here. I have so damn little time these days :(

[I give up 152]

I disagree, have you played Counter-strike? It has a very large female community. The arma series really isn't that brutal. You don't chop peoples heads off, and you don't play campaigns were you massacre civilians at a airport. Can you make it brutal? Yes. But if we are to judge a game, we have to negate user behavior over the content we receive from the game first. I think a safer argument would be how much smaller the Arma community is vs other shooters.

And that's because CS has female models? Obviously not since do not have.

The only people really worried about this subject are those who play Life, since most likely they want Life to become reality or vice versa.

If BIS want to enforce Life and such then I agree that female models should be added, otherwise this subject is a no subject.

Also about thesis, Ive read it and I could see that is not about Amed Assaut series, it is about ARMA 3, with that said if I was part of committee I would score as Pass with Major Revisions.

[instagoat 133]

I am unsure about her intepretation of the gender issue being part of the whole "upholding the magic" Idea that she proposes. The arguments for and against female character models focusing on supposed realism are moot, because there are so many extreme examples on both sides of the spectrum (Female death battalions in the Russian Army in 1917 vs all male, gay formations during the classical greek era for example.) that you can't find a for or against. Plus, female soldiers integrated into frontline units still have to prove themselves in western armies (Though I would argue they in general already have, ever since the beginning of time.).

 

The Idea is inclusion to me, mostly. 50% of the human species is female, and that alone should be enough of a reason to add at least one female character per race into the game. Even IF females weren't part of current armies frontline troops and no females at all would play Arma.

 

Her take on the immersion thing is interesting too. However, I find her extremely optimistic about the general openness of the community. We had veritable shitstorms before over X or Y being unrealistic, with whole scores of A2 players declaring they wouldn't touch/mod the game anymore. Though I think, one reason why interface/radio and realism mods dominate in this iteration of Arma is exactly that conflict: all groups want A3 to be the best game they desire. It can't be, so modders step in to serve the need.

 

The Idea of "Orientalization" is kind of derivative, though, mirroring a kind of general anti-imperialist language you get from academic sources rather often. It made me realize how well at demonizing the enemy the game is, because from second 1 you do not care about shooting up the AAF. (While CSAT is midly scary) On the other hand, CSAT does not come across as terrifically evil. In fact, they are technologically superior at this point, and seem to really have gotten their shit together. And their support of the AAF mirrors the way many governments have handled aligned/puppet government actions. See Russia in Crimea, the US in Georgia/Afghanistan in the 80s, the SU in Vietnam, etc.

And the shit-talking is mirroring what happens in real life. Also, compared to OFP:RR, A3 is really tame about the dehumanization.

 

Neat work in general, but kinda soft on the hard data. The interpretation of the whole gamergate debacle also is mildly annoying, but I can ignore that for the perspective she gives on the clan culture.

[I give up 152]

I am unsure about her intepretation of the gender issue being part of the whole "upholding the magic" Idea that she proposes. The arguments for and against female character models focusing on supposed realism are moot, because there are so many extreme examples on both sides of the spectrum (Female death battalions in the Russian Army in 1917 vs all male, gay formations during the classical greek era for example.) that you can't find a for or against. Plus, female soldiers integrated into frontline units still have to prove themselves in western armies (Though I would argue they in general already have, ever since the beginning of time.).

 

The Idea is inclusion to me, mostly. 50% of the human species is female, and that alone should be enough of a reason to add at least one female character per race into the game. Even IF females weren't part of current armies frontline troops and no females at all would play Arma.

 

Her take on the immersion thing is interesting too. However, I find her extremely optimistic about the general openness of the community. We had veritable shitstorms before over X or Y being unrealistic, with whole scores of A2 players declaring they wouldn't touch/mod the game anymore. Though I think, one reason why interface/radio and realism mods dominate in this iteration of Arma is exactly that conflict: all groups want A3 to be the best game they desire. It can't be, so modders step in to serve the need.

 

The Idea of "Orientalization" is kind of derivative, though, mirroring a kind of general anti-imperialist language you get from academic sources rather often. It made me realize how well at demonizing the enemy the game is, because from second 1 you do not care about shooting up the AAF. (While CSAT is midly scary) On the other hand, CSAT does not come across as terrifically evil. In fact, they are technologically superior at this point, and seem to really have gotten their shit together. And their support of the AAF mirrors the way many governments have handled aligned/puppet government actions. See Russia in Crimea, the US in Georgia/Afghanistan in the 80s, the SU in Vietnam, etc.

And the shit-talking is mirroring what happens in real life. Also, compared to OFP:RR, A3 is really tame about the dehumanization.

 

Neat work in general, but kinda soft on the hard data. The interpretation of the whole gamergate debacle also is mildly annoying, but I can ignore that for the perspective she gives on the clan culture.

Female death battalions, gay formations (btw, when you say gay formations are you referring to male or female?), hell, it looks that you want to turn this subject in to a discrimination issue and that is not correct.

If you look at ARMA 3 (vanilla) we are supposed to play as Nato Forces, now point me one force that belongs to Nato that have female soldiers in combat situations, there is none and that's why we do not have female soldier models.

Like i've said the only reason for female models is Life Modification, but then we also should have babies in game because is there where everything starts.

Now, since Life is a modification why do you do not create a modification with some female models and monetize with some Life server? That's how it should be done, requesting female models in vanilla just does not make sense, according to game concept.