Bombs kill at least 150 in bali tourist night spot

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I fail to see how a bomb exploding in Bali can be blamed on the US. And yet somehow, ONCE AGAIN, we are arguing about the US. This springs from two problems- certain forum members who hold the deep seated belief that EVERYTHING is the US's fault, and, of course, the less-than-well-informed Americans who continually rise to their bait. Pretty mindless, considering this song has been played at least 200 times since February

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 17 2002,07:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 16 2002,20<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 16 2002,13<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Force is the only way to deal with terrorism.

You can negotiate and use diplomatic solutions with a stable government. To some degree, you can even use diplomacy with a dictator, providing they are willing to listen.

But you can not negitiate with a fundamentalist extremist, who has had hatred for a specific people pumped into them since they were old enough to understand the language of their parents.

The Cause of that hatred isn't America, or the Western worlds presence in other countries. The Cause of the hatred is the parents of these eight year olds, who are dressing up in suicide bomber's clothing and chanting "Death to America, Death to Isreal."

Take for example Palestinian suicide bombers. Isreal has twice offered to let the UN organize a peaceful resolution. Once even offering up to 90% of the land (That's Isreali Land, not the Occupied West Bank and Gaza strip) back to the Arab countries that they took it from.

Yet the offer was refused, and the suicide attacks continue.

These terrorists have no logic, and no Morals. You can't negotiate with that. There is no negotiating with terror.<span id='postcolor'>

<sarcasm>And almost 50 years of fighting terrorism has brought and end to it . </sarcasm><span id='postcolor'>

No, that's fifty years of half-heartedly fighting it when it was politically worthwhile getting involved.

If you weren't to pig headed to actually read my posts and get the points from them, you would have seen that in order for any fight against terrorism to succeed, you need EVERY country standing against it.

As for violence breeding violence... thats crap. Remove the children from their parents and bring them up in a non-hostile environment, and there wouldn't be any hatred of America or the Western world, because they wouldn't have that hatred pumped into them from a young age.

All that leaves in the elimination of those already at an age to despise the Western World and want to carry out attacks, and the elimination of new groups before they get a support structure in place.<span id='postcolor'>

Lol you know something you can not tell me that the palestinians are the only terrorist in that conflict. Starting from 1850 a mass imagration of jews to palestina and then 100 years establishing a state. And then massing people in to west bank and gaza then a lot of them becoming refugees. Come on woulden't you fight for a country wich is yours. IDF manages to kill more civilians in an action then a terrorist bomber when he enters a bus and blowing himself up. And then you say we are deply sorry but we need route out terrorism. Since when is acceptable to drop 1 ton bomb in a civiall area just to kill on man.

And nice words pig headed very intelligent i must say what's next?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 17 2002,08:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lol you know something you can not tell me that the palestinians are the only terrorist in that conflict. Starting from 1850 a mass imagration of jews to palestina and then 100 years establishing a state. And then massing people in to west bank and gaza then a lot of them becoming refugees. Come on woulden't you fight for a country wich is yours.  IDF manages to kill more civilians in  an action then a terrorist bomber when he enters a bus and blowing himself up. And then you say we are deply sorry but we need route out terrorism. Since when is acceptable to drop 1 ton bomb in a civiall area just to kill on man.

And nice words pig headed very intelligent i must say what's next? <span id='postcolor'>

You're not going to believe this but there is a dedicated thread for this kind of rant. Here is the link. Primarily, this thread was created so that I don't have to play Russian Roulette when looking through topics for one that doesn't annoy me.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 17 2002,07:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I fail to see how a bomb exploding in Bali can be blamed on the US. And yet somehow, ONCE AGAIN, we are arguing about the US. This springs from two problems- certain forum members who hold the deep seated belief that EVERYTHING is the US's fault, and, of course, the less-than-well-informed Americans who continually rise to their bait. Pretty mindless, considering this song has been played at least 200 times since February<span id='postcolor'>

You're right Tex, we've wandered way off track here (me included).

I think the assumption was made that this was a strike against Australian citizens because of our alliance with the US in it's war on terror and Iraq.

Let's just hope this wasn't the case.

------------------------------------------------------------

I also think I just heard on the news 2 more bombs have been detonated in Singapore? Not sure, caught the end of the headline...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 16 2002,204)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 16 2002,13<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Force is the only way to deal with terrorism.

You can negotiate and use diplomatic solutions with a stable government. To some degree, you can even use diplomacy with a dictator, providing they are willing to listen.

But you can not negitiate with a fundamentalist extremist, who has had hatred for a specific people pumped into them since they were old enough to understand the language of their parents.

The Cause of that hatred isn't America, or the Western worlds presence in other countries. The Cause of the hatred is the parents of these eight year olds, who are dressing up in suicide bomber's clothing and chanting "Death to America, Death to Isreal."

Take for example Palestinian suicide bombers. Isreal has twice offered to let the UN organize a peaceful resolution. Once even offering up to 90% of the land (That's Isreali Land, not the Occupied West Bank and Gaza strip) back to the Arab countries that they took it from.

Yet the offer was refused, and the suicide attacks continue.

These terrorists have no logic, and no Morals. You can't negotiate with that.  There is no negotiating with terror.<span id='postcolor'>

<sarcasm>And almost 50 years of fighting terrorism has brought and end to it . </sarcasm><span id='postcolor'>

And one thing is for sure. Terorism is like Resitance: Hidden and Dangerous! How do you want to use Force on something that is so unstructured. Reminds of someone in a porcelane shop trying to hit a fly. Before he gets that fly he will have ruined half of his shop. I think Terorism is like organised crime. And I think we should learn from the Italians, cause it took them several decades to understand the processes and finally beat down the Mafia, even though each and everyone could have been the next to die.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 17 2002,07:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I fail to see how a bomb exploding in Bali can be blamed on the US. And yet somehow, ONCE AGAIN, we are arguing about the US. This springs from two problems- certain forum members who hold the deep seated belief that EVERYTHING is the US's fault, and, of course, the less-than-well-informed Americans who continually rise to their bait. Pretty mindless, considering this song has been played at least 200 times since February<span id='postcolor'>

Regarding US blaming:

Some hints of the reasons for me, and maybe others, blaming USA for much of todays global problems:

1. Since 9/11 I have become scared and worried of what will come if this conflict is not dealt with in creative ways. As you know, I am conviced that this is not a conflict that started from just the terrorists side on 9/11 2001. I would never say that 'US foregin actions in the last 50 years' alone really is the entire reason for the terror attacks though either - but USA has anyway internationally recieved a big part of the 'blame-labels'. The sadest thing is that since 9/11 USA has really started to deserve their bad reputation - the 'not so creative' bombing of Afganistan and the most likely coming war on Irak (and then maybe North-Korea - saw the post about their massdestruction weapons), amongst many other symbolic things, do convice big parts of the world that it will be better of without USA. And since I am living in a 'Western nation' (never say never about terror attacks in Sweden), I am scared about the ever increasing chanses of terror-retaliations close to me - at home or when visiting other countries; and ofcourse I find it depressing to just stand by and watch as the world around me falls apart (which an non-creative dealing with the current situation will cause)...

2. Other reasons might be my utter tiredness of US influence in my everyday life (maybe a psyco-analysist would find me just projecting my frustrations at USA , but in that case USA is in serious trouble due to fact that a majority of the worlds population feels, at least partly, like that). I mean how the virtual US global emipre affects me - the huge US global influence on:

- Economics

- Media

- Culture

     |

     |

     V

 ...as in stuff that really makes you rule the world..

3. One more thing that is important to mention, is that I can not remeber the last time I heard something positive about USA on the Swedish news. As late as half a year ago it was clearly visible that they wanted to sahre some light over the blamed USA - but not anymore.... Now they can spend minutes just reading lists of all UN conventions that USA have not ratified (a sole but symbolic thing) and ordinary kind of - 'today USA made further efforts to get their little war on Irak' reports...

We live in a time when this conflict takes up a great, or at least some, part of everyones conciousness, and the USA- for good or bad - happens to be the main actor there..........

[Chill 0]

Pukko i have to agree with every word. A funny thing North Korea did is come out and boast that they are building a A bomb. This really has made the US look like the biggest fools!! So is Bush going to Attack Nth Korea no! US are going to cut off economic aid to them . Why not bomb and invade Nth Korea? No oil there .;)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

One thing that should not be forgotten is:

the tallest tree in the forrest may have the best exposure to sun but also to snow, storm and birdshit!

The US has a little problem, it is the only superpower on this planet and therefore kind of helpless. There is no great partner america can hide behind. The action it takes are cannot be taken by anyone else, so the slogan "now or never" is the only option the US has. In the past this has been a tough job, but at least everyone else gave what they could give: "acknowledgement and appreciation and moral-justification for any action the US took.

But with the growing emancipation of the ...especially european countries the US had to fight on three fronts: the media at home; the media oversees; and the actuall conflict.

Now the big problem here is that the media in the US and in Europe want to hear two different/opposing messages, so whatever the US will proclaim it will find opponents within or outside the country.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 17 2002,16:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A funny thing North Korea did is come out and boast that they are building a A bomb.<span id='postcolor'>

"Ha ha" funny, or "Starving North Koreans flee to China or South Korea on lonely and desperate journeys to secure food, money or medicine for their dying families back home while children are orphaned when their parents die of starvation and women and young girls are sold into prostitution by those who traffic in human misery while their pathetic government blows its resources trying to build nukes" funny?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 17 2002,16:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This really has made the US look like the biggest fools!!<span id='postcolor'>

Gullible, maybe. And you are aware it was American intel that figured this out, right?

Semper Fi

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

the tallest tree in the forrest may have the best exposure to sun but also to snow, storm and birdshit!

- In the human world birdshit is not an accidental matter - perhaps you even deserved it - or not.

The US has a little problem, it is the only superpower on this planet and therefore kind of helpless.

- US has a huge problem (with the rest of the world). You said it, they are the only superpower left. However, that places an even larger responsibility on your shoulders when it comes to right or wrong, due to the fact that the balancing power is no longer there. One might say that the world has changed dramatically - so shouldn't the way you respond to the world also change? Why do US allways react with brute force - or the threat of using force?

There is no great partner america can hide behind.

- If your motives and the actions you take are morally sound, why should you need to hide?

In the past this has been a tough job, but at least everyone else gave what they could give: "acknowledgement and appreciation and moral-justification for any action the US took.

- Oh poor bastard given such a tough job. Of course, we all acknowledged all the right jobs they made with south- and latin america - especially Chile, Nicaragua, Panama etc.

You just got to love them for that!

This post is not meant to justify the terrible incident in Bali!

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Oct. 17 2002,18:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Ha ha" funny, or "Starving North Koreans flee to China or South Korea on lonely and desperate journeys to secure food, money or medicine for their dying families back home while children are orphaned when their parents die of starvation and women and young girls are sold into prostitution by those who traffic in human misery while their pathetic government blows its resources trying to build nukes" funny?<span id='postcolor'>

And how much does the US spend on it's defense budget, including nukes? A little more the Korea, I'm sure.

But it's OK, because noone in the US lives in poverty, right?

And the US has a wonderful public health system that doesn't need any extra funding...

Please, don't point the finger at other countries for squandering much needed money on weapons...basically every country in the world is guilty of that.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The Bush Administration has requested a Defense budget of 396.1 billion dollars in 2003. The best estimate of the total budget in FY2003 is 2,079.9 Billion dollars. A little bit of mad calculator skills, and one finds out that America spends a little more than 19% of its annual budget on Defense. That's not so bad, considering we have the most powerful military on Earth (nukes and all). Also, as a sidenote, we have approximately 13 Billion dollars allocated for international assistance programs. Not too bad- we could build a few B2 bombers and nuke all the poor countries for less money. How much money does Korea allocate to international aid?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 18 2002,02:o8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, as a sidenote, we have approximately 13 Billion dollars allocated for international assistance programs.<span id='postcolor'>

Not bad - even though 40% of it goes to just 2 countries.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Hey, if you vote for me I promise Ill up that to 4 or 5 countries

[Bernadotte 0]

Actually, the US only spends about 2% of its Gross National Product on defense.  Most other nations spend much more.  Iraq was spending over 40% in the pre-Gulf War years - higher than any other nation.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The GNP is a pretty dicey number, because the government isn't even near budgeting out the whole GNP (cuz it cant). So, I used the Budget figures instead

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Oct. 18 2002,01:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And how much does the US spend on it's defense budget, including nukes? A little more the Korea, I'm sure.

But it's OK, because noone in the US lives in poverty, right?

And the US has a wonderful public health system that doesn't need any extra funding...

Please, don't point the finger at other countries for squandering much needed money on weapons...basically every country in the world is guilty of that.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you sure you want to compare North Korean "poverty" and U.S. "poverty"? I'll be the first person to say that $ spent on Star Wars stuff could be put to better use domestically, but you can't seriously think that our military spending is depriving our citizens to the extent that North Koreans are experiencing.

Do you think it's "funny," too?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex[uSMC] @ Oct. 18 2002,0208)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best estimate of the total budget in FY2003 is 2,079.9 Billion dollars.<span id='postcolor'>

$38k of that is mine, all mine, baby!

(Before taxes, claro.)

Semper Fi

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 18 2002,01:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

the tallest tree in the forrest may have the best exposure to sun but also to snow, storm and birdshit!

- In the human world birdshit is not an accidental matter - perhaps you even deserved it - or not.

The US has a little problem, it is the only superpower on this planet and therefore kind of helpless.

- US has a huge problem (with the rest of the world). You said it, they are the only superpower left. However, that places an even larger responsibility on your shoulders when it comes to right or wrong, due to the fact that the balancing power is no longer there. One might say that the world has changed dramatically - so shouldn't the way you respond to the world also change? Why do US allways react with brute force - or the threat of using force?

There is no great partner america can hide behind.

- If your motives and the actions you take are morally sound, why should you need to hide?

In the past this has been a tough job, but at least everyone else gave what they could give: "acknowledgement and appreciation and moral-justification for any action the US took.

- Oh poor bastard given such a tough job. Of course, we all acknowledged all the right jobs they made with south- and latin america - especially Chile, Nicaragua, Panama etc.

You just got to love them for that!

This post is not  meant to justify the terrible incident in Bali!<span id='postcolor'>

Dont get me wrong. I am not EVALUATING anything! I am just trying to explain why the focus is and remains on the US. I think you read between the lines where the was nothing to read, that was a purely liberal approach.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 18 2002,03:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 18 2002,01:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 17 2002,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

the tallest tree in the forrest may have the best exposure to sun but also to snow, storm and birdshit!

- In the human world birdshit is not an accidental matter - perhaps you even deserved it - or not.

The US has a little problem, it is the only superpower on this planet and therefore kind of helpless.

- US has a huge problem (with the rest of the world). You said it, they are the only superpower left. However, that places an even larger responsibility on your shoulders when it comes to right or wrong, due to the fact that the balancing power is no longer there. One might say that the world has changed dramatically - so shouldn't the way you respond to the world also change? Why do US allways react with brute force - or the threat of using force?

There is no great partner america can hide behind.

- If your motives and the actions you take are morally sound, why should you need to hide?

In the past this has been a tough job, but at least everyone else gave what they could give: "acknowledgement and appreciation and moral-justification for any action the US took.

- Oh poor bastard given such a tough job. Of course, we all acknowledged all the right jobs they made with south- and latin america - especially Chile, Nicaragua, Panama etc.

You just got to love them for that!

This post is not  meant to justify the terrible incident in Bali!<span id='postcolor'>

Dont get me wrong. I am not EVALUATING anything! I am just trying to explain why the focus is and remains on the US. I think you read between the lines where the was nothing to read, that was a purely liberal approach.<span id='postcolor'>

Point taken. I actually thought you rushed in defence of US.

You see this: "One thing that should not be forgotten is" was understood by myself as a reply to this: "Some hints of the reasons for me, and maybe others, blaming USA for much of todays global problems".

Guess I misunderstood then!

I would say you are presuming I'm a liberalist - I wonder who's reading between the lines here?

[second_draw 0]

Me as an australian. I think whoever did it should ......

To terrorists, now your f*cked, you have given us as sad as it seems, "an excuse" but to blow your heads off.

[Major Fubar 0]

--- Edit: Why bother? God bless America, Mom & Apple Pie ---

* Me hums the star spangled banner and tapdances out of this thread*

Oh yeah, bloody hilarious...

[Guest]

Is it just me or does CIA director George Tenet look like a maffia boss?:

Anyway from CNN:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The al Qaeda terrorist network has reorganized after its ouster from Afghanistan and "intends to strike us here and overseas," CIA Director George Tenet told a congressional committee Thursday.

The domestic "threat environment" is as bad as it was in the summer of 2001, before the September 11 attacks, Tenet said.

"When you see the multiple attacks that you have seen occur around the world, from Bali to Kuwait; the number of failed attacks that have been attempted; [and] the various messages that have been issued by senior al Qaeda leaders, you must make the assumption that al Qaeda is in an execution phase and intends to strike us here and overseas," he told the Joint Intelligence Committee. "That's unambiguous, as far as I am concerned."

Tenet's testimony came as attacks believed tied to al Qaeda or affiliated terror groups have escalated.

On Thursday, five people were killed and more than 140 injured after bombs exploded in Zamboanga in the southern Philippines. Philippine officials are blaming the bombings on "Islamic extremists."

The city also was the scene of an October 2 blast that claimed four lives, including a U.S. Green Beret.

In Bali last week, back-to-back explosions at a crowded nightclub killed more than 180 people and injured hundreds more. Investigators say they suspect al Qaeda may have had a direct or indirect role in the attack.

On October 6, audiotaped statements purportedly made by al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri warned of new attacks. That same day, a French tanker was bombed off Yemen. Two days later, in Kuwait, gunmen killed a U.S. Marine. Both of those attacks are believed connected to al Qaeda.

<span id='postcolor'>

[foxer 0]

Man i love to be in america,with 2 oceans potecting us.

I would hate to be in western european,well any place that is friendly to america.Also places that has lots of americans.It's alot harder to get us ,because there no roads/land that connects us to the other side of the globe.To get here you gotta take a plane or boat.

Safest place in the world though is probably canada,that how they get in the US. Do you know if you go to canada and say your a refugee you can stay,no question ask.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Oct. 18 2002,11:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is it just me or does CIA director George Tenet look like a maffia boss?:

<span id='postcolor'>

Fuggedaboudit Denoir- he's gonna make you an offer ya can't refuse

[loopy 0]

Australia's day of mourning for Bali bomb.RIP

Australian unite for the victims of Bali.

A day of mourning.

Australia has been changed by the lethal Bali bomb blasts but the nation's spirit will never be broken, Prime Minister John Howard told a memorial service.

And he told the bereaved family members and friends of the more than 100 Australian victims that the entire country was trying to support them through the unbearable grief

"Our nation has been changed by this event," Mr Howard said as he led the mourners at the memorial service on this holiday island that has become a scene of Australian tragedy."

The official Australian death toll still stands at 30 but the Department of Foreign Affairs now says it may well rise to 119.