Germanwings Airbus A320 Crashes in France

[ProfTournesol 956]

The least we can say is that it's an amazing failure of the Lufthansa system, despite what Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said (wonderful Lufthansa formation system, etc.).

[vilas 473]

doctor that gave him day off because of heavy depression didn't called company

there are regulations to break medical secrets only to court me thinks, man with such problems should be somehow helped, but doctor couldn't probably call company to tell he told patient to stay in home,

maybe there should be regulations to break it when someone is pilot, policeman, judge , prosecutor, etc.

but it can break also other secrets - some illness may be dangerous but they are kept in secret, the problem is when and in which profession we can tell/we can't tell secret of person health (privacy vs safety conected with dignity of individual)

where is the barrier of secret - imagine you work with someone with aids or like this, in some profession you should know in others - hmmm... hard case

but what if person has problem -that exclude him from work but he must have money to live or bigger money to cure problems,

Edited March 27, 2015 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, this guy has been with Lufthansa for several years (since 2008 or 2009, he attended Lufthansa flying school AFAIK), how is it possible that nobody was aware of such very heavy trouble within the company ?

On the matter :

(BBC) How are pilots psychologically screened?

The pilot's training in 2009 had been briefly interrupted, but was resumed after "his suitability as a candidate was re-established". Carsten Spohr, the chief executive, said he was not allowed to reveal the reason for the interruption. When Lubitz returned, "his performance was without criticism" and "nothing was striking" about his behaviour.

The inexplicable nature of the pilot's actions has put the focus on to how pilots are psychologically assessed. Most passengers probably assume that the person flying their plane has gone through rigorous mental assessments to check they have the right character and temperament to be responsible for hundreds of lives. But is that true?

Spohr seemed to admit that no special psychological test was mandatory across Europe.

Edited March 27, 2015 by ProfTournesol

[vilas 473]

it is possible, cause in job you may play happy but be unhappy in home, moreover depression is not illness that comes from birth

it can appear after heavy problem

imagine

you are happy man

you live normally, you pass exams to job which require responsible person

now

there comes a day when you are told that you have aids, you live in your father home,

than you go to tell it to wife, she confuse she sleeps with your best friend

than you go to him, he has aids and he made it intentionally cause he hated you from jealousy, than you back to home and policeman calls you that they found your father died and left testimony to this your "friend"

than his advocate tells that according to court testimony is valid and you are evicted from home so he will live there...

now - would not this change you life ?

but please tell me it is not possible, cause i can tell you several such stories including story when someone had knock knock into his/her door from advocate representing criminal who had testimony of his/her father , because his/her father was drunk by someone and forced to sign document to change ownership of apartment

imagine that you are policeman, you discovered serious case of murder of alone person and ... you find that every policeman in your station is corrupted and you are only one that doesn't take bribes and all evidences you collected vanished and disappeared

this person COULD be very happy in 2009

he could have newborn child and loving woman

than month ago this woman met rich and handsome guy and said she takes children and you will never see them and her new boyfriend is advocate and he will bake you any shit she wants and her new boyfriend will prepare court that you were abusing your children to take off your rights

every scenario is possible - depresion comes AFTER some horrible acts you wintessed, like PTSD

Edited March 27, 2015 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, i don't say it isn't possible to get a depression, but i'm surprised no screening is made by the Air companies. I know several people that are suffering from severe depression, and everybody around them know that they are suffering from it (or at least that something isn't working well), it's quite hard to hide.

[vilas 473]

it is hard to hide when it is very strong, but without psychological background you will not notice,

and you must know people close - but in most jobs, people see "hi, hi" "whats the weather today" "oh yes, it is raining"

noone talks about family in job, but only about weather and "secure topics" such as clothes, sport,

do you talk in job about your family problems ? probably not, everyone of us play happy in job, never moan about boss being idiot or fraud etc.

lack of psychological test also suprise me - cause for pistol you need such one, for drive trucks probably too (at least i recon something like this in Poland for bus drivers - yes, in Poland bus drivers have such tests

do you go to job with "hi everyone, my woman cheated me yesterday" - they would look at you as looser, so you keep it in secret

Edited March 27, 2015 by vilas

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Well, i don't say it isn't possible to get a depression, but i'm surprised no screening is made by the Air companies. I know several people that are suffering from severe depression, and everybody around them know that they are suffering from it (or at least that something isn't working well), it's quite hard to hide.

Meh. It's not that hard to hide at all, because people don't want to see it in the first place. It's only obvious after the person does something very noticable that affects others in some way. (suicide, murder, etc. etc.)

[vilas 473]

first thing is that we all play in society, we are not honest, we cannot be honest, we might loose all being honest

imagine you go to job and say to your boss "you daughter is so beauty, can she do me a blowjob ? and boss , you fucker, when finally you will give me rise in salary, your wife is so fat boss , heh?"

we cannot be honest

we say "how are you" "i am fine" ,"beautiful weather" "isn't it"

on 300 people i work with i am honest maybe with few after 11 years of knowing each other cause they keep secrets like thombstone ;) especially when you say what you think about bosses

in the job we work, not tell family stories,

and family.. old Polish proverb say - with family you look happy but on photo

who invented - how are you , thanx i am fine ? west ;)

Edited March 27, 2015 by vilas

[Richie 330]

imagine you go to job and say to your boss "you daughter is so beauty, can she do me a blowjob ? and boss , you fucker, when finally you will give me rise in salary, your wife is so fat boss , heh?"

I would love whatever you're smoking, wtf does this have to do with a plane crash :confused:

[ProfTournesol 956]

Meh. It's not that hard to hide at all, because people don't want to see it in the first place. It's only obvious after the person does something very noticable that affects others in some way. (suicide, murder, etc. etc.)

I'm sorry, but if i were travelling with someone depressive enough to kill 150 people, in the same small cockpit for several hours, as pilot and copilot do, i'll notice that something isn't going well. Can't believe nobody notices it.

[vilas 473]

I would love whatever you're smoking, wtf does this have to do with a plane crash :confused:

so you not understand what we talk about ?

Prof said it can be seen if someone has problems, i and Dark claim it is not easy to find what pilot feels in job by second pilots and recognize it in job, because people are not sincere in job,

because it requires medical knowledge to find if someone is depressed to commit suicide or not , so such things cannot be prevented even by special test that would be carried before person get into serious mental problems because of changing life conditions,

eventual tests should be carried from time to time, cause even first job test will not answer about what would happen after some time with person responsible for such duty as driving passengers

I'm sorry, but if i were travelling with someone depressive enough to kill 150 people, in the same small cockpit for several hours, as pilot and copilot do, i'll notice that something isn't going well. Can't believe nobody notices it.

have you graduated psychology or psychiatry at university ? cause i am railway engineer and i would not notice because it needs special knowledge, especially when majority of chats in job is about sport, weather or very rare about politics or economy of country NOT about problems in home, maybe you are open in job or your friends are, but afaik majority of chats in job are not about family problems, look at us here in addons - we cooperate sometimes decade with each other - what do we know about each other families ?

nothing

we spent 10 years talking about Oxygen, UV mapping, coding (and politics on offtopic), they spent few months only, not decade like we here,

it is impossible to note, when you live in culture which say "how are you, thanx i am fine"

Edited March 27, 2015 by vilas

[TheMightyKovacs 6]

it is possible, cause in job you may play happy but be unhappy in home, moreover depression is not illness that comes from birth

Well..sort of. Depression, as far as I know, can be both caused by an outside influence or by a shift in production of important hormones in the thyroid. However, I'm not completely sure if that is something that is caused through birth. I digress, as depression isn't entirely the point of this thread.

Either way, ~150 people were literally incinerated upon impact; 150 lives lost. It is, quite literally, the fault of everyone involved. The pilot for leaving the cockpit (that is a thing?), the copilot for obvious reasons, and Lufthansa for not seeing that the copilot was not on the aircraft today (namely whoever was directly in charge of seeing to it that the copilot was not on the plane).

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

I would love whatever you're smoking, wtf does this have to do with a plane crash :confused:

Prof and Vilas were talking about how the copilot may have had some mental issue/depression/etc. and then I replied, saying how depression is easy to hide because nobody really pays attention or wants to notice. Vilas then replied to my reply, agreeing with me and expanding on it, giving some rather... extreme (lol) examples of what somebody might want to say to their boss when they intead only say polite/nice/friendly things.. He was talking about the custom of asking "how are you" and the response being "great/good/etc. etc." because most of the time the person asking the question doesn't really want to know, they just ask out of custom, and the person responding to the question can be (and usually is) either completely bullshitting/lying, or talking only about happy things, instead of whatever is actually going on with them at the moment, and that got brought up because I said people don't really want to know about problems, which makes them easy to hide.

I'm sorry, but if i were travelling with someone depressive enough to kill 150 people, in the same small cockpit for several hours, as pilot and copilot do, i'll notice that something isn't going well. Can't believe nobody notices it.

*shrug* depression can come and go like the tide, Prof. If that's what he had, he'd have been able to hide it during flights. Maybe after long periods of time, or if something stressful happened during a flight, it would be noticeable, but I'm not that surprised. I don't know much about how airlines operate, but I would think it's possible he didn't always fly with the same pilot? definitely not with the same crew, so I doubt anybody would have been exposed to him for a long enough period of time for it to become apparent. Besides, pilots and copilots aren't necessarily friends, or have to get along (personally. getting along professionally while flying is obviously a requirement) so maybe him and the pilot didn't talk to each other much, or maybe the pilot just thought the copilot was a bit tired or under stress etc. etc.

Personally I think this was partly planned and partly spontaneous. He'd been throwing out doctor's notes for a while, apparently. He could have planned to kill himself (as in suicide. single person. etc.) but kept finding excuses not to. and then on that day, during that flight, maybe something in him snapped, or clicked, or whatever. Maybe "all the wrong forces came together" at precisely the moment where he was contemplating his life, or the possibility of not being able to fly, and he decided to do it instantly with no planning whatsoever. We'll never really know. If there's an afterlife, we know he has a damn good chance at ending up in the fiery depths portion of it, but that's about it.

People are good at hiding things. Especially their thoughts and emotions. You learn to hide them because you're afraid of how people might react to them. If you do share them with others, more often than not you just get confirmation that it's a bad thing to do, so you keep things to yourself more and more. I'm going to use an extreme example, and one that personally affected me greatly even though I never met him in person.

Robin Williams. Did any of you see his suicide coming? His own family didn't expect it. And you're telling me that a mere coworker would be able to know the man sitting next to him was unstable? Your expectation that someone should have noticed is a bit crazy to me. Nobody notices these things! People in that sort of mindset can hide it from anyone they damn well want to. They might reach out, hoping someone will notice, but what they think is obvious isn't obvious at all. Combine that with the fact that nobody pays attention to that sort of thing/nobody wants to know about it/acknowledge it/etc. etc. and you get a recipe for a sudden and unexpected suicide. If that is what this was, then nobody can be held responsible except the doctor (unless privacy laws kept him from notifying the employer) or the person at the airline who knew about it if the doctor had notified them. The copilot is a murderer, that's pretty well established now. Beyond that, if he was suicidal, or depressed, there's about one chance in hell that somebody would have been able to guess it, trust me on this.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Darkhorse 1-6

[ProfTournesol 956]

You're probably right guys, as nobody semt to have noticed it. But people i know that are heavily depressed are (1) extremely apathic when under meds or (2) very high or very low when they don't take them. So it's quite easy to notice that they have troubles. This guy was probably better at hiding his illness than them.