Questions on the m243 saw

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">with your vast expertise in jungle warfare<span id='postcolor'>

Hate to point this out and fan the flames...

But there is virtually no vegetation in your current active conflict (Afghanistan) and likely even less in your next likely target (Iraq)

[timmy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 30 2002,06:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">with your vast expertise in jungle warfare<span id='postcolor'>

Hate to point this out and fan the flames...

But there is virtually no vegetation in your current active conflict (Afghanistan) and likely even less in your next likely target (Iraq)

<span id='postcolor'>

well said

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ July 30 2002,20:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am very offended by this remark.  What part of my post gave you the impression that I lack proper training on the M240B?  Who the hell are you to say what my abilities are? I was simply stating some shortcomings of the M240B that I've noticed from my own experience and then here you come and flame me for it.  Very childish Denoir, I've been a gunner now for the last three years.<span id='postcolor'>

This part:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With the 60 - Supressive fire? No problem sir! Bangbangbangbang.... /Enemy Dead

With the 240B - Supressive fire? Ok, hang on, let me get set up...../minute later/....uh wait, I can't see..... /your platoon is wiped out.

The 240B looks great when you're on the firing range. On a tripod, it's the most accurate MG I have ever fired. In the field, it's a piece of sh**.<span id='postcolor'>

Shows two things:

1) You bring the wrong equipment in the field. The obvious choice for a light machinegun would be a minimi para, especially if you want to shoot from standing position.

2) You have no idea of what it means testing a weapon in the field. Try swimming with the thing for 5 km, exposing it directly to water, sand mud to set it up within seconds and firing it without a single jam. That is a proper field test. That is what shows if it is a good weapon or not. Then it is up to you to use the right weapon in the right situation. You can't blame the weapon for you using it wrong.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Last year me and my assistant gunner took 1st place in the batalion Top Gun competition, we managed to dissasemble and re-assemble and do a function check in 50 seconds flat. I can set up a full fighting position in my sleep. Don't tell me I lack proper training! <span id='postcolor'>

Wow. I bet you got a very shiny patch for it too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The M240B is way too top heavy to be able to bring it up to your shoulder. I don't care if you are Arnold freaking Swartznegger, it's impossible to do this. It was not designed to do this. It's tough do bring it up even with the 60, but at least it was possible.

I'm sure you Swedes like it, I don't doubt it at all. Of course the only brush you have to put up with are pine trees and a few rocks, so firing from the prone makes perfect sense for you.

Again: the 240B on the range is great. It makes any gunner look good. In the field (at least here) it's dead weight.<span id='postcolor'>

I can only shake my head in disbelief: Bring the right tools for the job for crying out loud Of course you can only fire the MAG from prone postion. It is designed for that. What's next? Are you going to say that the Abrams sucks because there isn't room for 20 people in it??

Damn, if you were a soldier under my command and started saying shit like that I sure as hell would have ripped you a new one.

[RedRogue 0]

Warin,

It would be terribly unwise to train and plan for terrain in a "current conflict" only. What he is more likely refering to is the terrain in which he has trained on.

Denoir,

Would you like some petrol to help the flames out? Guess mods keep their own stock handy for that anyway. But more to the subject at hand. As far as I know most infantry combat personell in the US Army do not get to choose a weapon, they are assigned one. Is it the wrong piece of equipment for the terrain/situation... yes. But it would be the fault of those in command and logistics not the soilder that tries to do the best with what they are given.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course you can only fire the MAG from prone postion. It is designed for that<span id='postcolor'>

hehe...... errrrr........fan the flame?

ok, FN-MAG can be used quite successfuly both in short range assaults and while crouching, given the right training. nothing teaches you more then personal exp.

ofcourse a Minimi or a Negev(in my case) would be nice, but youve got to do the max out of what you've got.

what i think the man tries to say is that they got a weapon who was supposed to be better then the one it replaces but it isnt. and they werent trained to adjust to the new weapon.

btw. Denoir: do you have the Armor version of the FN-MAG?

i mean the one we the closed gas valve.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RedRogue @ July 31 2002,03:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But it would be the fault of those in command and logistics not the soilder that tries to do the best with what they are given.<span id='postcolor'>

RedRogue:

Well, if he is in no position to decide or influence which weapon to bring (the minmi (M249 SAW) is btw. a standard weapon in the US Army) it is still lack of proper training. Which is what I said in my first post. Regardless if it is his fault or not.

Scout:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

ok, FN-MAG can be used quite successfuly both in short range assaults and while crouching, given the right training. nothing teaches you more then  personal exp.

<span id='postcolor'>

You can actually shoot it from standing position too. I had a couple of guys in my platoon that were actually pretty decent at it. However that requires above average skill and physique and cannot be expected from all soldiers.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw. Denoir: do you have the  Armor version of the FN-MAG?

i mean the one we the closed gas valve. <span id='postcolor'>

No, we used the one where you could regulate it. I know that on some boats they had a version with the fixed valve.

Here is btw a minimi that we had to swim and dive with:

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can actually shoot it from standing position too. I had a couple of guys in my platoon that were actually pretty decent at it.

<span id='postcolor'>

i was an assualt Mgunner in my squad in my first year in the army.

we had an "assault handle" to help you grab the weapon better.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, we used the one where you could regulate it. I know that on some boats they had a version with the fixed valve.

<span id='postcolor'>

fixed valve is so much easier to clean no matter how much i would spend cleaning the darn adjustable valve, it would stay dirty.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here is btw a minimi that we had to swim and dive with:

<span id='postcolor'>

hehehe, well, at least you didnt have to swim with a M-2!

[MDRZulu 0]

That diver with the minimi looks like a zombie or a stoned zombie or a ghost.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Denoir, I'm not going to flame you back since it appears that you simply dont know what you are talking about.  I don't think you are familiar with structure of the U.S. Army nor the scale of operations that we deal with even in simple field excercises.

This is how it works in the U.S. Army:

The M249 SAW is a Squad Automatic Weapon. Every line squad in a platoon has at least two of them, one for each team.  (There are usually 3 line squads to a platoon, 10-12 soldiers) There is also a weapons squad, we are the ones that carry the heavy machine guns like the M240B, and also any anti-armor weapons like AT4's, or the Dragon.  There are two guns for each platoon.  This is standard throughout the Army no matter what region you are in. When we are given a mission we ALL go. Big guns, little guns, everything. The 240B (me) always stays with the platoon.  If the platoon is told to go take out a bunker, the 240's go as well, even if the bunker is in a thick jungle where it is impossible to see where you are shooting when you are prone. I guess your idea of proper training is x-ray vision.

Oh, and Red Rouge is right we do not pick and choose which weapons to take with us, they are indeed assigned to us.  You made me laugh when you said that.  That was good one, not as good as when you said that if I was one of your guys you were going to rip me a ....LOL... If I brought the wrong weapon or something like that.....LOL.   Yes sir!

If you want to learn more on the structure of a U.S. Army infantry platoon you should read FM 7-8, it's our bible as USSoldier11B10 can tell you.  You should really read it if you insist on being an expert and tell people that they need proper training.  It would be less embarrassing for you.

denoir......    

[scout 0]

here is FM 7-8.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, and Red Rouge is right we do not pick and choose which weapons to take with us, they are indeed assigned to us. <span id='postcolor'>

some units has more then one weapon assigned to the troops, especially SF. then the units' CO assigns according to the need.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">some units has more then one weapon assigned to the troops, especially SF. then the units' CO assigns according to the need.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, absolutely.

Thanks for the link by the way.  Its a really good reference, not just for denoir to study up on , but for anyone who would like to make more realistic missions for OFP.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ July 31 2002,05:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">some units has more then one weapon assigned to the troops, especially SF. then the units' CO assigns according to the need.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, absolutely.

Thanks for the link by the way.  Its a really good reference, not just for denoir to study up on , but for anyone who would like to make more realistic missions for OFP.<span id='postcolor'>

Considering that Denoir is a senior NCO in his nations armed forces, I think you are showing a great deal of disrespect.

Perhaps he is not as fluent in US military doctrine as you are, but he does have practical experience to back up his opinions. You may not agree with them... but you cant deny his right to express them.

Just for the record, what rank are you?

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Considering that Denoir is a senior NCO in his nations armed forces, I think you are showing a great deal of disrespect.  

Perhaps he is not as fluent in US military doctrine as you are, but he does have practical experience to back up his opinions.  You may not agree with them... but you cant deny his right to express them.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I think this was mostly a misunderstanding.  I don't think denoir is stupid.  A bit arrogant perhaps, and quick to judge. My apologies if I sounded disrespectful.  That remark in the last post crossed the line a bit, I can see that now.  I take it back.

I can't help getting angry when someone tries to tell me that I don't know how to do my job. Especially from someone who has never even been in the U.S. Army. Its my duty to defend myself in those situations.  His remarks were completely uncalled for.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just for the record, what rank are you?<span id='postcolor'>

I sense a trap..... You're going to pull rank on me arent you?  If you insist on knowing, I'm a Specialist (E-4).  If you try to pull any wierd Swedish rank on me, I will be forced into laughter so don't even go there....oops disrespectful?  sorry. I'll try to behave.

[NavyEEL 0]

Gosh I'm just so darn impressed with this argument between you two... so professional! Now we know why it's an "army of one", because you can't get more than one person to agree on something!!

[USSoldier11B 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I'm a Specialist (E-4). If you try to pull any wierd Swedish rank on me, I will be forced into laughter so don't even go there<span id='postcolor'>

Yay! I have a "sham shield" buddy.

[Guest]

Now, I was first seriously pissed off when I read your new posts, but I have cooled down now, so I'll try to be nice.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just for the record, what rank are you?<span id='postcolor'>

I sense a trap..... You're going to pull rank on me arent you? If you insist on knowing, I'm a Specialist (E-4). If you try to pull any wierd Swedish rank on me, I will be forced into laughter so don't even go there....oops disrespectful? sorry. I'll try to behave.<span id='postcolor'>

This made me smile. I'm a second lieutenant. I'm currently not active, so I'm in the reserves. I find it very amusing (if not sad) that you have such delusions of grandeur, corporal, that you have the nerves to try to teach me how a platoon is organized.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I can't help getting angry when someone tries to tell me that I don't know how to do my job. Especially from someone who has never even been in the U.S. Army. Its my duty to defend myself in those situations. His remarks were completely uncalled for. <span id='postcolor'>

On the contrary I would say I have a more real experience of the US Army then you have. I was deployed in a combat zone with them (Kosovo) so I have seen up close and personal how things are organized and executed. You might find it hard to believe but when you deploy in a combat zone things are a bit different from when you stand guard outside DisneyWorld, Florida. This was made clear already in your first response to my post where you measured your skill with your weapon in how fast you could dissasemble and assemble it.

Well, I guess you can't be blamed for having a lack of experience, but you should perhaps be mindful before being so arrogant.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want to learn more on the structure of a U.S. Army infantry platoon you should read FM 7-8, it's our bible as USSoldier11B10 can tell you. You should really read it if you insist on being an expert and tell people that they need proper training. It would be less embarrassing for you.<span id='postcolor'>

Now, instead of mindlessly refering to the FM 7-8, you should try reading it instead together with the FM 7-10.

The company CO is responsible for maintaining a weapons cache (from batallion) that is suitable for the current environmental and tactical conditions. The platoon CO is responsible for selecting the suitable weapons for a mission.

Now, if you feel that you can't use your MAG properly in the environmental conditions of Florida, then one of three things apply:

1) Bad logistics on the company level

2) Bad CO platoon level

3) You don't know how to use your weapon

My guess would be 1)

Now, I am sure that you could teach me a thing or two about the practical usage of the MAG and I am very sure that you can disassemble it much quicker then I can. But please don't try to teach me how a squad, platoon or company is organized. You take your orders from your squad leader. I have commanded a company. See the difference in commanding experience?

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This made me smile. I'm a second lieutenant. I'm currently not active, so I'm in the reserves. I find it very amusing (if not sad) that you have such delusions of grandeur, corporal, that you have the nerves to try to teach me how a platoon is organized.

<span id='postcolor'>

You had to go there didn't you.  /fighting urge not to ridicule denoir.....aaarghh....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now, if you feel that you can't use your MAG properly in the environmental conditions of Florida, then one of three things apply:

1) Bad logistics on the company level

2) Bad CO platoon level

3) You don't know how to use your weapon

My guess would be 1)

<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm, so youre not blaming me personally anymore?  Ok, it's a start.   

I don't know how this got started, I wrote a simple post about my own experience with the M240B and gave some reasons why I missed the M60.  The next thing you know I have some ex-Lieutenant in the Swedish armed forces who claims to be an expert on U.S. Army on my ass.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 31 2002,09:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You might find it hard to believe but when you deploy in a combat zone things are a bit different from when you stand guard outside DisneyWorld, Florida.<span id='postcolor'>

BBWWAHAHAHAHA

you 0wnz denoir

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ July 31 2002,10:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know how this got started, I wrote a simple post about my own experience with the M240B and gave some reasons why I missed the M60.  The next thing you know I have some ex-Lieutenant in the Swedish armed forces who claims to be an expert on U.S. Army on my ass.

<span id='postcolor'>

You attacked my favourite weapon. NEVER ATTACK MY FAVOURITE WEAPON!!

[RedRogue 0]

Well now that we have hjacked this thread long enough does everyone feel better?

Both of you made commets that where uncalled for. Lazarus had full right to make comments on why in his opinion the M60 had attributes that where better than the M240B/G. Honestly Denoir you did spark this whole this with comments that degraded Lazarus's training, and competance. Then of course this was furthered with his rebutles.

Now everything is said and done and cannot be changed. So can we get back to the origin on my thread. I know alot about military equipment not only thru living with family in the military but because my occupation and curiosity demands it. But I do not have a large basis of what people that have actually learned and used these weapons feel of them.

This er... debate on the FN family of weapons and others has been informative. Now I am also curious to opinons of the M16, M4 and such mainstream weapons of those that have used them in exercises and extensively and what they think of them. So if you would indulge me I would appreciate it.