Castro was right!

[ralphwiggum 6]

Cnn money article.(watch out for popups when window is closed)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HAVANA (CNN) - Cuban President Fidel Castro, in a speech Friday marking the 1959 Cuban revolution, noted the troubles on Wall Street and questioned if the world can sustain the capitalist economic system.

Castro said falling investor confidence in the United States and what he called the failure of "globalization," raises questions about whether worldwide capitalism can continue.

Castro didn't mention Cuba's desperate economic condition, but he did thank the U.S. House for passing a bill that would lift restrictions on travel to the island nation.

The House voted "with determination and courage for three amendments that bring glory to that institution," Castro told tens of thousands of people gathered for the Revolution Day commemoration.

In his government's first official response to the votes, Castro said he considered the action so important that it didn't matter if President Bush vetoed them, as he has indicated he would.

"We shall always be grateful for that gesture," Castro said.

The House voted Tuesday to lift restrictions on travel by Americans to Cuba, a ban that has been in place for more than four decades -- except during a brief period during the administration of President Carter.

The House also voted to remove blocks to the sale of food and medicine to Cuba and lift the cap on the amount of money that Cuban-Americans can send relatives in Cuba.

The measures now go to the Senate.

The White House said this week in a statement that the president likely would veto the spending bill if it lifted the travel ban. "Lifting the sanctions now would provide a helping hand to a desperate and repressive regime," it said.

The bill, which faces an uncertain future in the U.S. Senate and at the White House, would open the door for increased tourism by U.S. citizens, something Cuba desperately needs.

Castro said Cuba wants friendship with the United States, but he made clear that does not include altering Cuba's one-party socialist state.

<span id='postcolor'>

yup! the dear leader is correct! all hail Fidel and his revolution!

[Warin 0]

As opposed to a bannana republic puppet government with the US pulling the strings?

*cough*Batista*cough*Samoza*cough*

Be careful trying to make political comments about Central America and the Carribean.  The US has been awful imperialstic in that reqion, in an underhanded 'What, me worry?' sort of way

[ralphwiggum 6]

lighten up Warin, I was just seeing how Castro is taking recent slump in stock markets to promote his opinion.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 27 2002,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lighten up Warin, I was just seeing how Castro is taking recent slump in stock markets to promote his opinion. <span id='postcolor'>

I am light. I didnt go into a diatribe at all

Castro's biggest mistake was feeling idealogically bound to the USSR instead of making concessions to the US. Sadly he didnt have much of a choice since the US seemed to be dead set against him from the start.

Canada has always treated Cuba well (imports, exports, travel) and I havent seen communism spread here (in spite of what deaely departed Assault might think LOL. He should be back soon, no? )

It is good though to see Castro quite with the Anti US rhetoric and show that he's willing to work on things.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Communism is a horrible form of Goverment, and is something the U.S. should have nothing to with.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 27 2002,04:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Castro's biggest mistake was feeling idealogically bound to the USSR instead of making concessions to the US.  Sadly he didnt have much of a choice since the US seemed to be dead set against him from the start.<span id='postcolor'>

Sadly that's true, the US wouldn't accept loosing their beloved puppet Batista. Castro did try to build ties (He flew to New York right after his victory). But he saw that the US woudl do whatever it could to oust him...and the USSR of course was very willing to provide protection. Castro's biggest mistake is his determination to stay in power, I respect what he started out as but he's turned into a petty dictator, just like Batista.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Communism is a horrible form of Goverment, and is something the U.S. should have nothing to with. <span id='postcolor'>

Of course, I mean it makes perfect sense to have an embargo on Cuba, baaad communists....we shouldn't do any business with them! *cough* Free trade with China *cough*

[foxer 0]

That's because china has a billion people,and they sure look mean.Cuba has what 30/50 million ? U.S. gov't doesn't like cuba because they don't like commies in their back yard.

But we sure are hypocrites.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ July 27 2002,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's because china has a billion people,and they sure look mean.Cuba has  what 30/50 million ?  U.S. gov't doesn't like cuba because they don't like commies in their back yard.

But we sure are hypocrites.<span id='postcolor'>

13 million when I left in 92 . And like I said above, Castro didn't declare himself, and Cuba, socialist until after the US gave him the cold shoulder in New York.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 27 2002,04:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ July 27 2002,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's because china has a billion people,and they sure look mean.Cuba has  what 30/50 million ?  U.S. gov't doesn't like cuba because they don't like commies in their back yard.

But we sure are hypocrites.<span id='postcolor'>

13 million when I left in 92 . And like I said above, Castro didn't declare himself, and Cuba, socialist until after the US gave him the cold shoulder in New York.<span id='postcolor'>

--edit it out.Felt bad......

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 27 2002,04:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Communism is a horrible form of Goverment, and is something the U.S. should have nothing to with.<span id='postcolor'>

Who needs Wobble when we have Duke of Ray now?

Anyway, I think at least the embargo on food and medicine should be lifted. A normalization of relationships with Cuba would of course be much better.

As Jay Leno joked, when Bush said "We'll only stop sanctions when you hold a free election where the majority of voters can choose a new government." Castro replied: "OK. You first."

I think that Bush kind of lost his right to say anything about the Cuban form of government since he was losing the 2000 election until he persuaded the supreme court to stop the recounts on grounds that recounts are unconstitutional. Not to say that even without the recounts a majority of the US voters voted for Gore. So much for democracy

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As Jay Leno joked, when Bush said "We'll only stop sanctions when you hold a free election where the majority of voters can choose a new government." Castro replied: "OK. You first."<span id='postcolor'>

HAAAA!!! LOL THAT IS FRIGIN GREAT!

[Warin 0]

Just wait...

Our republican comrades will jump on the 'The court said he was president so it doesnt matter what the woooohn wohn wooooohnnnn wohn......' bandwagon.

What is 'woooohn wohn wooooohnnnn wohn......' ?

That is the point at which they just start sounding like the parents on an old Peanuts cartoon

My friends and I coined the phrase 'Wonking'

[BoonieRat 0]

The one biggest trouble with Communism is: there has never beeen a working model to show how it would be.

Could you really call what the USSR had communism?. I'd be more inclined to think it a Fascist state.

the only place I've seen come near to Communism is Isreal with the Kibutz.

At the end of the day its only Capitalists that have to fear communism, and how many people that live in capitalist countrys are capitalists?. shop owners?. buisiness owners?. landowners?. what kind of percentage does that cover?... its always a minority feeding off a majority. but they're rich enought to force their will on others...

Basicly if you're rich: you're a capitalist. if you're poor you're a comunist (or you bloody should be )

PS. I'm not a Communist. I'm a drug crazed Hippy ...

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

If Marx is right the eventually we will all be communist. Marx kinda thinks like Denoir. Eventually society will change and democracy wont be the best system anymore. Marx says first there will be a revolution and everything will be Socialist for a while, then migrate into communism.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 27 2002,07:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Marx is right the eventually we will all be communist.  Marx kinda thinks like Denoir.  Eventually society will change and democracy wont be the best system anymore.  Marx says first there will be a revolution and everything will be Socialist for a while, then migrate into communism.<span id='postcolor'>

And if true communism could work..if we could put our personal greed aside and make the world a better place for everyone, this would be bad why?

Now dont get me wrong, true communism as envisioned by Marx is a utopian ideal that cant exist. Solely because we as human beings are greedy bastards and cant ever get away from that.

But laissez faire capitalism is every bit as evil as true communism.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

I agree completely Warin. But people like Marx and Denoir seem to think people will change and government will change with them.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 27 2002,07:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree completely Warin.  But people like Marx and Denoir seem to think people will change and government will change with them.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL. I dont think Denoir is nearly as optomistic and hopeful as you seem to think. But in many ways he is right. As the current system of government continues to be come less and less able to properly cope with the world, it WILL change.

Why do you think you have ammendments to your constitution? They are there because the requirements of your nation have changed..so the constitution has as well.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

U.S. rules!U.S. rules!!! j/k, or am I? Anyways U.S. should break of ties with China and any other communist country, and so should all our good "friends". Communism does not work, becuase it does not well....it just doesn't!!!!!!!!! Communism does not work becuase people want let it work. Who wants to be a commie? Goverment owns everything! It is so stupid it is....welll....stupid!!!!

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

My point is this:

People say communism doesn't work and won't work.

Then people say people change and governments adapt.

So why won't communism work? Or Laissez-Faire ecconomics? Or anarchy?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 27 2002,07:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My point is this:

People say communism doesn't work and won't work.

Then people say people change and governments adapt.

So why won't communism work?  Or Laissez-Faire ecconomics?  Or anarchy?<span id='postcolor'>

Because most systems that are narrow visions of how the world can/should work. And the problem with a narrow view is that those sorts of systems dont generally take human nature into account...they just assume that people will adapt. They wont, generally

Communism wont work because of greed. People dont WANT to work for the same as others, even if the other persons job seems harder. People want to see gain for what they do.

Laissez Faire capitalism wont (or shouldnt) work because it would actually concentrate money even faster than it is done now, and you'd end up with a VERY small or non existant middle class and a new sort of 'slavery' where the rich dictate how you work...and class movement is virtually impossible.

Anarchy...well... it could work..but only with a much much smaller population.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 27 2002,07:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">U.S. rules!U.S. rules!!! j/k, or am I? Anyways U.S. should break of ties with China and any other communist country, and so should all our good "friends". Communism does not work, becuase it does not well....it just doesn't!!!!!!!!! Communism does not work becuase people want let it work. Who wants to be a commie? Goverment owns everything! It is so stupid it is....welll....stupid!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Yet another intelligent and insightful diatribe from Duke of Ray.

Good job, lad!

[/sarcasm]

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 27 2002,01:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 27 2002,07:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My point is this:

People say communism doesn't work and won't work.

Then people say people change and governments adapt.

So why won't communism work?  Or Laissez-Faire ecconomics?  Or anarchy?<span id='postcolor'>

Because most systems that are narrow visions of how the world can/should work. And the problem with a narrow view is that those sorts of systems dont generally take human nature into account...they just assume that people will adapt. They wont, generally

Communism wont work because of greed. People dont WANT to work for the same as others, even if the other persons job seems harder.  People want to see gain for what they do.

Laissez Faire capitalism wont (or shouldnt) work because it would actually concentrate money even faster than it is done now, and you'd end up with a VERY small or non existant middle class and a new sort of 'slavery' where the rich dictate how you work...and class movement is virtually impossible.

Anarchy...well... it could work..but only with a much much smaller population. <span id='postcolor'>

So you say communism or laissez-faire or anrachy work because of the state of people now.

But we have established that people change.

So we have no business saying none of these will ever work. Who knows if people change and they do, just like Marx said.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yet another intelligent and insightful diatribe from Duke of Ray.

Good job, lad!

[/sarcasm]<span id='postcolor'>

Thnaks I try to keep a few good ones up in the old brain....SARCASM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ERRRR! I will have your job!

Anarchy! LOL LOL!!!!!!!!Har Har!!!! Sorry.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

OFP is a tool of the devil. Sorry to say but it is. Better quit the forum and go somewhere else

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 27 2002,07:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you say communism or laissez-faire or anrachy work because of the state of people now.

But we have established that people change.

So we have no business saying none of these will ever work.  Who knows if people change and they do, just like Marx said.<span id='postcolor'>

WONT work you mean?

And that's right..they wont. Why? Because there are some fundamentals that never change:

a) Being greedy bastards

b) Wanting to breed like a bunny to guarantee your genetic patterns continue on

c) Being social and having a big 'herd'

Cant change some of the more animalistic fundamentals...but as our view of the world progesses, we learn to moderate them.