Castro was right!

[billytran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 28 2002,01:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (billytran @ July 28 2002,01<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You're trying to make it sound like the EC is a system designed to only put Republicans in office, which it is definitely not.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, I was trying to point out that you seemed to disparage the system in Democratic states, but lauded it for the states Republicans win.

As has been pointed out, you have an elected congress and senate, with representation based on population.  And so why would it be bad to have your president decided by truly democratic means?<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry if I sounded like I was disparaging it. I really don't care if republicans don't vote in solidly liberal states. The fact is, there presidential vote wouldn't matter anyway. If a state is democratic, it's votes should go democratic. The electoral college works just fine in places like California. What I was trying to say is that the popular vote is misunderstood, since the EC system can skew the popular vote.

The purpose of a president elected by all of the states is so that you don't end up with a president who only serves the interests of a few states, and ignores the little ones.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Tovarish,

The Bay of pigs....Well, that belongs in the military stupidity thread.  The way the CIA handled that affair was just plain embarrassing... It doesen't matter, it's irrellevant. How the embargo started doesen't change the way Castro has mishandled his country.  

The United States can NEVER agree to lift the embargo while Castro is still in power, plain and simple. The thing that stops it from being effective is the fact that other countries insist on supporting him thus giving him enough financial strength to hang on to power. You really think that free trade between Cuba and the U.S. would make life better for the Cubans while Castro still controlled the country? This is like saying that life in Pakistan will be great now that we have lifted all our sanctions against that corrupt regime.  The only difference in cuban standard of life would be that there would be lot more job openings for cabana boys rubbing sun tan lotion on the backs of fat "Yanqui" tourists.  Most of their salaires would go to serve Castro for his own selfish purposes, thus making life for cubans even WORSE.

Castro goes = Embargo goes = Life gets better for cubans!

What did you do in Cuba for 9 years by the way?  I'm just curious.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ July 28 2002,05:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tovarish,

The Bay of pigs....Well, that belongs in the military stupidity thread.  The way the CIA handled that affair was just plain embarrassing... It doesen't matter, it's irrellevant. How the embargo started doesen't change the way Castro has mishandled his country.  

The United States can NEVER agree to lift the embargo while Castro is still in power, plain and simple. The thing that stops it from being effective is the fact that other countries insist on supporting him thus giving him enough financial strength to hang on to power. You really think that free trade between Cuba and the U.S. would make life better for the Cubans while Castro still controlled the country? This is like saying that life in Pakistan will be great now that we have lifted all our sanctions against that corrupt regime.  The only difference in cuban standard of life would be that there would be lot more job openings for cabana boys rubbing sun tan lotion on the backs of fat "Yanqui" tourists.  Most of their salaires would go to serve Castro for his own selfish purposes, thus making life for cubans even WORSE.

Castro goes = Embargo goes = Life gets better for cubans!

What did you do in Cuba for 9 years by the way?  I'm just curious.<span id='postcolor'>

I happen to agree with Tovarisch and disagree with you, Laz.

It is ingrained in the average American to see that Castro is evil and nothing will get better until he's gone.  The only thing with Castro that makes him unacceptable to the US is that he isnt YOUR petty dictator.  And that's a simple fact.  Castro hasnt made his peoples life any worse than the Samoza did in Nicaragua, or Marcos in the Phillipines, or Noreiga in Panama. And by ending the embargo, the economic development can actually do something to bring about the end of Castros iron grip. It's harder to keep people down when there isnt an enemy like the US to point to.  

America just likes to pick the dictator... and as Tovarisch said Castros biggest mistake was to eliminate one of the USs pet dictators.

And it still amazes me that anyone can justify the trade and diplomatic ties the US has with China, and yet pick on Cuba and claim that somehow Castros Cuba is worse than China.  If it wasnt so perversely sad, I'd laugh...

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ July 28 2002,05:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Bay of pigs....Well, that belongs in the military stupidity thread.  <span id='postcolor'>

We agree on something, wow. I still don't see how you could call it a war between Americans and Cubans, none of the combatants were part of the US military. Maybe a few CIA pilots fliying B-26's painted with Cuban colors. That and it lasted all of a few days. Also it's nice to see how you excuse the embargo as a reasonable response to a "personal vendetta".

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> How the embargo started doesen't change the way Castro has mishandled his country.<span id='postcolor'>

Batista was doing worse, and he was being kept in power by the US.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The United States can NEVER agree to lift the embargo while Castro is still in power, plain and simple. <span id='postcolor'>

I'll accept that answer when you demand the same of China.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The thing that stops it from being effective is the fact that other countries insist on supporting him thus giving him enough financial strength to hang on to power.<span id='postcolor'>

And that's also the only thing keeping Cuba from having a humanitarian crisis on the scale of what goes on in say Somalia or North Korea.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You really think that free trade between Cuba and the U.S. would make life better for the Cubans while Castro still controlled the country? <span id='postcolor'>

Yes. Plus it would expedite Castro's departure. Look at how long Gorbachev lasted after Perestroika...and Castro is acting just as Gorbachev was...he WANTS to normalize with the US!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

This is like saying that life in Pakistan will be great now that we have lifted all our sanctions against that corrupt regime.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Now you're comparing apples and oranges, the situation in Cuba is nothing like Pakistan.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The only difference in cuban standard of life would be that there would be lot more job openings for cabana boys rubbing sun tan lotion on the backs of fat "Yanqui" tourists.  Most of their salaires would go to serve Castro for his own selfish purposes, thus making life for cubans even WORSE.<span id='postcolor'>

Wrong. There is, for example, a Canadian construction company operating in Cuba. The employees are Cuban, the dollar salaries they earn go to the state (wrong, I concur). However, they get a very decent salary in Cuban currency, plus they get some additional benefits from the Canadian company. The situation is not perfect but better than it would have been if Canada paid attention to your embargo.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Castro goes = Embargo goes = Life gets better for cubans!

<span id='postcolor'>

That equation needs a bit of revising:

Embargo Goes = Life Gets Better For ordinary Cubans + They See America is not their enemy + They realize the benefits of democracy = Castro goes.

BTW this equation was proven in the USSR. Yours was devised in the 60's and meant to work within the decade. 40 years later it hasn't. I say go with what works.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What did you do in Cuba for 9 years by the way?  I'm just curious.

<span id='postcolor'>

I'm Cuban. I lived there.

[Paratrooper 0]

92% of Cubans have voted to permanantly enshrine the socialist system, even in the event of Fidel's death or resignation. 92%! what do you make of that? While many may have voted because they felt they had to, this vote shows real support for Castro in Cuba.

Not such a great tyranny clearly!

[Warin 0]

The whole mess of the last 40 years of US/Cuba relations can be laid at the feet of a single organisation.

The Pittsburgh Pirates.

That's right. If their Havana scouts hadnt sent the following advice:

The kid Castro has some command of breaking pitches (stop)

Has nothing on the fast ball (stop)

Double AA talent at best (stop)

And they had just drafted him anyways..none of this would be happening!

So suck on that, US of A, Castro is a creation of your own system failing a plucky pitcher from Havana!

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,02:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">92% of Cubans have voted to permanantly enshrine the socialist system, even in the event of Fidel's death or resignation. 92%! what do you make of that? While many may have voted because they felt they had to, this vote shows real support for Castro in Cuba.

Not such a great tyranny clearly!<span id='postcolor'>

I'd be careful how you interpret that. If a soldier comes to your door and asks "how would you vote?" what would you say? I'm not saying the vote was like that, but votes in dictatorships are always favourable towards the dictator. Nonetheless Castro does have the support of a majority of Cubans. Ironically the Embargo is helping keep it that way. As long as Castro keeps making steps towards normalizing relations with the US and the US keeps replying "screw you", Castro can come back to the Cuban people and say: "See? The US means to keep our country economically opressed as long as we are not their puppet. They are the enemy".

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,02:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">92% of Cubans have voted to permanantly enshrine the socialist system, even in the event of Fidel's death or resignation. 92%! what do you make of that? While many may have voted because they felt they had to, this vote shows real support for Castro in Cuba.

Not such a great tyranny clearly!<span id='postcolor'>

I'd be careful how you interpret that. If a soldier comes to your door and asks "how would you vote?" what would you say? I'm not saying the vote was like that, but votes in dictatorships are always favourable towards the dictator. Nonetheless Castro does have the support of a majority of Cubans. Ironically the Embargo is helping keep it that way. As long as Castro keeps making steps towards normalizing relations with the US and the US keeps replying "screw you", Castro can come back to the Cuban people and say: "See? The US means to keep our country economically opressed as long as we are not their puppet. They are the enemy".<span id='postcolor'>

Very true. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"See? The US means to keep our country economically opressed as long as we are not their puppet. They are the enemy".<span id='postcolor'> And is he wrong?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,02:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"See? The US means to keep our country economically opressed as long as we are not their puppet. They are the enemy".<span id='postcolor'> And is he wrong?<span id='postcolor'>

That is the real question isn't it? Would the US turn Cuba into a "protectorate" like Puerto Rico? If so get ready for another Revolution, and I would be very tempted to join it.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,02:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,02:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"See? The US means to keep our country economically opressed as long as we are not their puppet. They are the enemy".<span id='postcolor'> And is he wrong?<span id='postcolor'>

That is the real question isn't it? Would the US turn Cuba into a "protectorate" like Puerto Rico? If so get ready for another Revolution, and I would be very tempted to join it.<span id='postcolor'>

I am vehemently opposed to communism as those of you who have read my previous posts on it will know, but when faced with 'communist independance' or American hegemony' the choice would be simple.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,03:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am vehemently opposed to communism as those of you who have read my previous posts on it will know, but when faced with 'communist independance' or American hegemony' the choice would be simple.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm opposed to it too . I'm not calling for a communist Cuba, (I am somewhat socialistic though). What I want is a truly Independent and Democratic Cuba, where the government has no puppet strings attached.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,03:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I want is a truly Independent and Democratic Cuba, where the government has no puppet strings attached.<span id='postcolor'>

I hope it will come.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,03:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,037)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I want is a truly Independent and Democratic Cuba, where the government has no puppet strings attached.<span id='postcolor'>

I hope it will come.<span id='postcolor'>

Alas, we have been waiting for it since the early 1800's when we started kicking the Spanish out

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,04:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,03:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I want is a truly Independent and Democratic Cuba, where the government has no puppet strings attached.<span id='postcolor'>

I hope it will come.<span id='postcolor'>

Alas, we have been waiting for it since the early 1800's when we started kicking the Spanish out  <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

You'd be better of with Spain at the moment. Although I' hate to be under Spanish rule but thats because I'm English.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,04:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You'd be better of with Spain at the moment. Although I' hate to be under Spanish rule but thats because I'm English.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but the situation with Spain was very different 200 years ago. Colonialism stinks, and since then too many Cubans have died fighting for Independence to ever give it up. That's another of Castro's favourite cards to play against the spectre of US Imperialism.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,04:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 29 2002,04:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You'd be better of with Spain at the moment. Although I' hate to be under Spanish rule but thats because I'm English.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but the situation with Spain was very different 200 years ago. Colonialism stinks, and since then too many Cubans have died fighting for Independence to ever give it up. That's another of Castro's favourite cards to play against the spectre of US Imperialism.<span id='postcolor'>

The only good imperialism is british Imperialism, at least we did it with style!

[Harnu 0]

How old is Castro anyway?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ July 29 2002,04:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How old is Castro anyway?<span id='postcolor'>

63 Methinks. It's the ones you wish would just pass on that live forever

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ July 29 2002,05:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ July 29 2002,04:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How old is Castro anyway?<span id='postcolor'>

63 Methinks. It's the ones you wish would just pass on that live forever <span id='postcolor'>

Indeed, Mugabe is 78!

[ralphwiggum 6]

i personally think Castro is not that bad of an internal issue dictator. At least he talks with Cuban college students (or is capable of). Bush? nah...

Tovarish, look at the bright side. at least when cuba has democracy the way you want, they can be indepedent. one step closer.

and when that happens, hope Canada sends their best singer, Celine Dion.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 29 2002,06:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i personally think Castro is not that bad of an internal issue dictator. At least he talks with Cuban college students (or is capable of).<span id='postcolor'>

But the problem is the students can't talk back if they don't want their next campus to have bars, barbed wire, armed guards, and only the kind of sex most of them don't want .

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Tovarish, look at the bright side. at least when cuba has democracy the way you want, they can be indepedent. one step closer.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep, I just don't think the US's way of getting there is nearly the best...and damned if Cubans will be agreeable to be made a "protectorate" like Puerto Rico.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

and when that happens, hope Canada sends their best singer, Celine Dion. <span id='postcolor'>